SWAT kills two dogs in front of children during a house raid over a marijuana posession.

reply to post by WhiteDevil013


I agree with you in all that BUT... you still cant blame the swat. They were following orders. And that wasnt a search warrant that was an arrest warrant. So they went in to arrest the guy, not to check if he was innocent or not, that doesnt matter for a spec ops team. Thats another team, the office's job to attend to. They were sent in to bring him in.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

I am well aware of the tactics involved in terms of a meth lab, and even moreso of the sad EPA and DOH concerns that are involved in the cleanup afterwards.

Peripheral vision...of a dog. You are with 6-7 other guys in full body armor and assault weapons. I can take a bite to my raw skin for a dog, multiple times. How can you not do it with body armor and then neutralize the threat? Am I missing something here?

I thought special forces and SWAT training were supposed to allow you to make extraordinarily calm and cool decisions while under undue amounts of pressure? My father who is a former navy seal from Vietnam, still military 40+ years and my brother who is an officer of PPD, who finds this video sick as well, tell me. Hmm, sucks they didn't tell me the right information. :/ If this is the case now of how training is going THESE days, it makes sense that we have so many civilian casualties in Iraq.

Blame the father? Oh right I forgot law enforcement is always on the tip that we are "guilty until proven innocent". So he has been charged now with drug-trafficking? Please send that information over so we can see. The statement send "a small amount" so WHAT WAS FOUND is for PERSONAL USE. A misdemeanor in most states where this man would be fined. BAD INTEL. Yes, and YEARS of trauma bud. Go ask his kids 10 years from now if they remember this and see if they shed a tear. Very incompassionate.

I was referencing to the fact of the officers involved in this incident who are now more than likely behind a desk. Not you. Were the officers that I observe in this video adrenalin filled apes in my opinion? Yes. Did this officers get high off of of their adrenalin rush? Yes. Do you? I don't know you. I know a lot actually about the training of spec-ops, for reasons listed above and more I am not delving into. That is why I am defending this man since it was botched from the initial investigation.


[edit on 6-5-2010 by DrEyebrows]

[edit on 6-5-2010 by DrEyebrows]

reply to post by Blaine91555


I agree they need to ban alcohol too. People get drunk and beat on the old lady, get in a car go down the road and kill someone, die of cirrhosis of the liver. Get drunk and want to start fights etc etc.

I dont even smoke pot, i hate drugs. But i have enough common sense to know alcohol is many times worse in side effects and violence causing incidents.

So this guy got busted for a little pot wonder how many drunks where driving on the road and getting in violent fights at the bars/clubs while these cops were busy busting him?



Either legalize pot or ban alcohol and cigs . It wont happen cause this world is a big fat ball of greed and hypocrisy!
But i see we need to stay on topic.

Point is police are seemingly wanting to use force when its not necessary then choke it up to i was scared , or i felt threatened.

Maybe better training mentally and physically is required. Or maybe they are egocentrics who think carrying around a gun and badge makes them a god. In this country it basically does.




[edit on 6-5-2010 by ker2010]

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
reply to post by WhiteDevil013

 

I agree with you in all that BUT... you still cant blame the swat. They were following orders. And that wasnt a search warrant that was an arrest warrant. So they went in to arrest the guy, not to check if he was innocent or not, that doesnt matter for a spec ops team. Thats another team, the office's job to attend to. They were sent in to bring him in.

Wrong. Read my earlier post. SWAT has options in the way that they execute a warrant. They "chose" to go in the middle of the night. They "chose" to shoot a dog. I didn't see any reports of injury to the team. The dog was not in the process of causing bodily harm, it was just barking. They could have knocked on the door and served it. They could have controlled the dog without deadly force. They could have researched the nature of the warrant and the suspect before barging into the home. They could have known that the dogs were there ahead of time. They could have known that the suspect was not accused of a violent crime.

In my encounter with SWAT, they did everything appropriately, and they retreated from the dog, and they still made their arrest. My town SWAT=professional, Columbia, MO SWAT=Worthless wannabe spec ops!

reply to post by getreadyalready


Cheers, this squad and this investigation was totally botched from the beginning. It is crazy to me that law enforcement I know still think this incident is shameful, but some people still come online to defend it. Very strange.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
reply to post by WhiteDevil013

 

I agree with you in all that BUT... you still cant blame the swat. They were following orders. And that wasnt a search warrant that was an arrest warrant. So they went in to arrest the guy, not to check if he was innocent or not, that doesnt matter for a spec ops team. Thats another team, the office's job to attend to. They were sent in to bring him in.

Wrong. Read my earlier post. SWAT has options in the way that they execute a warrant. They "chose" to go in the middle of the night. They "chose" to shoot a dog. I didn't see any reports of injury to the team. The dog was not in the process of causing bodily harm, it was just barking. They could have knocked on the door and served it. They could have controlled the dog without deadly force. They could have researched the nature of the warrant and the suspect before barging into the home. They could have known that the dogs were there ahead of time. They could have known that the suspect was not accused of a violent crime.

In my encounter with SWAT, they did everything appropriately, and they retreated from the dog, and they still made their arrest. My town SWAT=professional, Columbia, MO SWAT=Worthless wannabe spec ops!

And see their in lies the problem you have people in every job or profession that know how to do their job and care and on the opposite those who dont know how to do their job and could care less.

The bad part is when it comes to jobs like being a LEO the later can cause people or things to get killed , destroyed and ruined for life. Its not like being a chief and over cooking someones steak.

reply to post by DrEyebrows


And you really think the Swat was sent there because of a small amount? It doesnt even matter the quantity that was apprehended, that was not the point of the operation.

And yes, in some cases the rule "guilty until proven otherwise" applies but in this case the swat was not there to see if he was guilty or not. They were following orders with an arrest warrant. Simple as that. They got in, got their job done and got out. Minimum loss of life - check, target brought alive and place secure - check - mission accomplished.

And navy seals are not the same as an urban spec ops team. Navy seals operate in a different kind of "hot spot". Even in riots you dont call the seals, they dont have the same training no. You are comparing 2 types of spec ops with different kinds of training.

All spec op branches only meet at one point: If you're good enough, you may apply for the NSA and that's where the party's at. And then your training begins again

Originally posted by ker2010
The bad part is when it comes to jobs like being a LEO the later can cause people or things to get killed , destroyed and ruined for life. Its not like being a chief and over cooking someones steak.

Exactly. But I guarantee the heartless thugs in the video might as well have overcooked a steak, not giving a damn whether they were shooting family pets in front of children or not.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
reply to post by DrEyebrows

 

And you really think the Swat was sent there because of a small amount? It doesnt even matter the quantity that was apprehended, that was not the point of the operation.

And yes, in some cases the rule "guilty until proven otherwise" applies but in this case the swat was not there to see if he was guilty or not. They were following orders with an arrest warrant. Simple as that. They got in, got their job done and got out. Minimum loss of life - check, target brought alive and place secure - check - mission accomplished.

And navy seals are not the same as an urban spec ops team. Navy seals operate in a different kind of "hot spot". Even in riots you dont call the seals, they dont have the same training no. You are comparing 2 types of spec ops with different kinds of training.

All spec op branches only meet at one point: If you're good enough, you may apply for the NSA and that's where the party's at. And then your training begins again

Minimum damage - failed

I havent had a day of Law enforcement training in my life. I did bounce in a club by myself for two years and had patrons i had to physically deal with way more scary than a corgi..

I guarantee i coulda done what those cops did and not shot the corgi in the process without one day of training.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by ker2010]

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


Well let's all be honest here. I think the main reason everyone is upset is because of the dogs. If the same video was posted with this botched operation and the 2 dogs WERE NOT shot, I doubt it would even be posted. It is even in the OP subject line.

So with that said all I am really debating is this: The swat intel obviously chose that time as the best to enter the house. Late at night, man alone with wife, couple kids, couple dogs. Therefore they chose to get at least 7 officers in full body gear and assault guns to infiltrate the premises under those conditions and execute the warrant. How are you not able to neutralize the dogs without killing them? With me even in jeans and a tshirt barefisted I could neutralize a dog or two. Why was the master/owner of the dogs not even allowed any time to even secure the dogs with so much manpower?

Originally posted by DrEyebrows
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

Well let's all be honest here. I think the main reason everyone is upset is because of the dogs. If the same video was posted with this botched operation and the 2 dogs WERE NOT shot, I doubt it would even be posted. It is even in the OP subject line.

So with that said all I am really debating is this: The swat intel obviously chose that time as the best to enter the house. Late at night, man alone with wife, couple kids, couple dogs. Therefore they chose to get at least 7 officers in full body gear and assault guns to infiltrate the premises under those conditions and execute the warrant. How are you not able to neutralize the dogs without killing them? With me even in jeans and a tshirt barefisted I could neutralize a dog or two. Why was the master/owner of the dogs not even allowed any time to even secure the dogs with so much manpower?

Cause either the cops were lazy or they just wanted to put a hole in something. You cop defenders have these two choices to choose form which one is it?

Laziness or trigger happy cops???

We all know neither of those dogs could have killed any of the 7 armed officers so it wasnt a matter of life of death.

Laziness or trigger happiness? You choose.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


In my case SWAT was sent to serve a warrant for "Theft of an Historical Document." The document was a savings bond, and it was never stolen, it was evidence in an ongoing lawsuit against another county. They came with SWAT, helicopter and all! You would have thought I stole the Declaration of Independence. The prosecutor (subsequently fired) had claimed in court (as a defender of the county) that the bond was worthless, and turned around in the same week and put a large value on it to falsify tan interstate warrant!

Everyone involved was so lucky that my County's team was so professional. There could easily have been multiple casualties. My Pit Bull was 90 pounds! I have multiple weapons in the home including AK's and riot shot guns. My wife was pregnant at the time, and we had a 1 year old asleep in the home. My neighbors are mostly rednecks, and my friends would have been eager to assist in a stand off.

The fact that the SWAT team did their research, came at a reasonable dusktime hour, retreated from the dog, and still maintained their authority and made their arrest and confiscated the bond/evidence, is what kept everyone alive!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

In my case SWAT was sent to serve a warrant for "Theft of an Historical Document." The document was a savings bond, and it was never stolen, it was evidence in an ongoing lawsuit against another county. They came with SWAT, helicopter and all! You would have thought I stole the Declaration of Independence. The prosecutor (subsequently fired) had claimed in court (as a defender of the county) that the bond was worthless, and turned around in the same week and put a large value on it to falsify tan interstate warrant!

Everyone involved was so lucky that my County's team was so professional. There could easily have been multiple casualties. My Pit Bull was 90 pounds! I have multiple weapons in the home including AK's and riot shot guns. My wife was pregnant at the time, and we had a 1 year old asleep in the home. My neighbors are mostly rednecks, and my friends would have been eager to assist in a stand off.

The fact that the SWAT team did their research, came at a reasonable dusktime hour, retreated from the dog, and still maintained their authority and made their arrest and confiscated the bond/evidence, is what kept everyone alive!

Now those are the type of cops you defend and be proud of. Not the trigger happy, power hungry, ruthless, non conscience ones that some here love to defend.

reply to post by ker2010


Only two choices to choose from? Hmm didnt realize it had boiled down to that. At what point were you in the individuals house to actually see for yourself the events that took place? Oh wait I know, you were on the entry team right? No..I got it...you were video taping it. I should have known. The fact is not one person here was on either side of the door during the event as it took place, the video leaves alot to interpretation especially the fact that the camera wasnt even in the same room as the dog and the officer so there is no way of truely knowing if the dog was ready to attack the officer or not. But please, if anyone WAS there and actually WITNESSED the event with their own eyes...feel free to speak up.

reply to post by DeltaBravoSierra


I dont have to be there for me to know a 25 lb corgie poses me no threat at 6ft 235 lbs , in armor and armed with semi automatic weapons. If i considered that a threat under those circumstances if i was a police officer i would find a new profession. The only justifiable thing would be shooting the pit and only if he was charging. Still he wouldnt be that much of a threat againist 7 armed armor wearing guys.


Just a little common sense

[edit on 6-5-2010 by ker2010]

reply to post by ker2010


So you would agree then that you were NOT there and did NOT actually WITNESS the events that took place in the household correct? Just making sure. Since we have come down to making two choices between a lazy cop and a trigger happy one, I wanted to make sure fully that you weren't actually there witnessing the events as they unfolded. Since, obviously it MUST be one of the two, I just figured you were in the room the Pit was shot in viewing the situation.

Originally posted by DeltaBravoSierra
reply to post by ker2010

 

Only two choices to choose from? Hmm didnt realize it had boiled down to that. At what point were you in the individuals house to actually see for yourself the events that took place? Oh wait I know, you were on the entry team right? No..I got it...you were video taping it. I should have known. The fact is not one person here was on either side of the door during the event as it took place, the video leaves alot to interpretation especially the fact that the camera wasnt even in the same room as the dog and the officer so there is no way of truely knowing if the dog was ready to attack the officer or not. But please, if anyone WAS there and actually WITNESSED the event with their own eyes...feel free to speak up.

The fact is, it doesn't matter if the dog posed a threat or not. The police were invading a private residence. The dog is supposed to defend the home. The family is supposed to defend the home. They are presumed innocent, which means the police are REQUIRED to retreat rather than escalate! The only exception would be in rescue of a person, or in the arrest of a known violent offender with expected resistance!

The police were not justified in using force inside the home of a presumed innocent suspect. Period!

If they felt threatened by the dog, they should have retreated, and asked the homeowners to surrender outside to authorities.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by DeltaBravoSierra
reply to post by ker2010

 

.

They are presumed innocent, which means the police are REQUIRED to retreat rather than escalate!
.

Really? Can you provide proof of this statement?

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by CanadianDream420

 

Don't be mad at the Cops , for doing their job... Be mad at the guys buddy that dime'd him out. It's obvious they got bad intel from a CI. You don't know what sort of intel was passed , you don't know if the guy is alone , if he has weapons , if has has buddies with weapons. when you make entry into a house the last thing on your mind is the welfare of the family pet. Once It's cleared , THEN you can worry about those things. I know PLENTY of guys that had to put dogs down because , douchebag drug dealers keep them in the house ,you know why they're there?... so when you make entry THEY BITE YOU!!!!

So I guess the guy that's dealing out of his house with his kids there isn't at fault huh?... And you even call for someone to get fired?!? C'mon!...lol

It's really simple , unless you have X-Ray vision , YOU DON'T KNOW what's in a house before you enter it , and things happen REALLY fast. It sucks that the guys dog got double tapped but sometimes $*** happens.

If I walk into anyone's home and shoot a caged animal... I get arrested. Shooting a caged animal that poses no threat is called animal abuse. One could make an argument that the animal that was not caged could in fact bite an officer, but they messed up when they shot the caged animal. That is Fact.

I love how you talk about a guy dealing from his home with children... now can you provide any evidence whatsoever of that claim? What was found in his home indicates to me that is was personal use. Not dealing.

And you would be correct about one thing... It is really simple. Police should do actual police work before busting down the door of someone's home because some other criminal said to do so!