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You owe me and you are going to pay!

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posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


Thank you.


You'll note that I said many people, not all people on welfare. There are people on welfare who don't want to be and who try everything they can to get off it. I have no problem with them. They're trying and no one can ask for more. I see them as people needing a hand up. The ones I've been talking about in my posts are the ones who aren't trying, don't want to try, and are content to stay on welfare for the rest of their lives even though they could get off it if they wanted to. That I take issue with, even if it does make me sound self-righteous.




posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by Loken68
 


Medicaid ain't free, bub.

It's paid for through various taxes over the lifetime of most who use it. Your position is analogous to complaining that someone had the audacity to actually file an insurance claim on their insurance company.

Most of your other links don't work.

So what makes you not a waste of skin? What have you contributed to society that gives you the right to bellyache about someone getting the help they need?



Ok if medicaid isn't free the who pays for recipients who have never had a job. What about cases involving immigrants who don't qualify for medicare being added straight to state plans.

I work for a living and pay my way. You guys are missing the heart of the post. Go back and read them. This country is going broke because of abuse to the system. Washington is not going to fix it, they just create more systems to be abused.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by Loken68
 


The country is going broke because of the likes of Goldman-Sachs, JP Maorgan and the other Wall Street gamblers. They are the ones stealing from the middle class. Good greif, they just stole more money in the last two years than all the welfare cheats who ever lived put together.

Perhaps if more real jobs with livable wages were available those people you seem to despise would have more inclination to work.

You still haven't answered what your contribution to society is...what have you done that earns you the right to judge your fellows?



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by prionace glauca
 


If you planed a bit you could travel the world under illegal status for free lol.

We need to make a video and do this.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by Dwellewd
 


Wait, here's why what won't work? I've gone from Scarlet O'Hara to Malibu Barbie here, I'm lost..


People who do things like what your sister and brother-in-law are doing are the ones I've been talking about. What they're doing isn't right and isn't what the system was intended for, which you obviously are aware of I just wish they and people like them were.


Don't worry about the weaker members of society because let's get real, somebody has to wash the dishes.


I can wash my own dishes, even if I do hate dishpan hands. I do believe our definitions of weaker members of society differ though. Weaker members of society, to me, are those who really can't take care of themselves. Children, the elderly, the deathly ill, those disabled to the point where they have to depend on others for their care, etc. I do worry about them because they are defenseless, with a few exceptions I'm sure, and have to rely on the kindness of others. Not a promising situation to find yourself in nowadays. In my mind, they are a completely different group than those who leach off the welfare system because it's easier than working for what they want.


A government that has the power to provide you with everything has the power to take it all away.


I agree completely with you there though. And that's part of the reason I disagree with giving the government more power over our lives.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:29 AM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by Loken68
 


The country is going broke because of the likes of Goldman-Sachs, JP Maorgan and the other Wall Street gamblers. They are the ones stealing from the middle class. Good greif, they just stole more money in the last two years than all the welfare cheats who ever lived put together.

Perhaps if more real jobs with livable wages were available those people you seem to despise would have more inclination to work.

You still haven't answered what your contribution to society is...what have you done that earns you the right to judge your fellows?


I agree with you about the banks, the guys that were running them are now white house chief's of state..

I don't despise anyone. But I'm saying a crook is a crook. A guy robs a shop to feed his family. I can almost understand that. But a guy robs a shop to support a habit. He needs to be punished. All I.m saying is this People are stealing our tax dollars. Do we just keep on giving anyway? If I owned a shop that kept getting robbed and the cops said tough luck, I think I'd get out of the business.

I am a lawyer for a corporation. I worked 2 jobs to pay my way. I worked by the sweat of my own brow to earn what I have. It pi*s** me off knowing that I've got to keep up people who don't care and are out to find a way to screw the tax payer.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 12:40 AM
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reply to post by Loken68
 

A lawyer?

A corporate lawyer?

So you've never actually created anything of worth, then, have you? You haven't built anything, grown anything, fished, or provided something actually useful and think you're better than others?

Please.

Corporate lawyers are the people who make Goldman-Sachs and their ilk untouchable.

You are the parasite, pretending that what you do is useful to society. I don't doubt that you worked hard for your degree, but don't kid yourself: your profession is one of the sleaziest ones out there.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 01:11 AM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


Actually I'm not into finance's. More to the business side. Now that you've left the original thread and went on the attack I'll commit you to iggy. It's a shame you can't carrying on a civil conversation without degrading to slander.

And also yes I have created something of use. A company that employees 245 hard working well paid Americans that are fed up with people milking the system and the one's who feed them so they can control them.



[edit on 6-5-2010 by Loken68]



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 01:33 AM
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Mr.Mask,congratulations,you got it right and no one even noticed?



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 01:34 AM
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Contributing to society! Wow thats such a wonderful phrase. What do any of us contribute to society? I for one think i, at the most minimal of ways contribute to society with every dollar the government takes from me regardless of if i want to contribute it or not. I have accepted this. Its the way this country works. I get it. We live in a society that requires of its citizens to pay up to keep things working that we all need. Things that benefit us all. Like roads, and schools and public utilities etc etc.. I get it.

Any person on this thread who has paid taxes has contributed. So anyone having the gall to ask what contribution to society have you played is simply trying to be provocative and arrogant.

If some of us here seem a little insensitive to the lower class (which i count myself among because of my yearly earnings) then maybe it is because we have seen waaaay to many people getting more for doing less or simply holding there hands out.

I will give you a few more examples of my own experiences that sicken me of this pathetic human condition of entitlement.

There is an extremely overweight lady who rides around in a hover chair with a net attched to a pole ( a very long pole) that always hangs out on the corner of the 2 major intersections where i live in houston. She doesnt wait to make eye contact with you or even speak to you, she just wheels up as close as she can get to your car from the median and shoves the poled net up to your window. She did this to me one day and i rolled down my window and just stared at her. Ok do i know this ladys situation? No i sure dont. Do i care? Nope. Not when i am confronted with her and the 20 other or so panhandlers around my neighborhood always asking for money and they have the nuts to be so brazen and rude. They dont care. All they want is money. They dont care if they are rude to you or if they appear to be disgusting. I know this lady aint missing any meals because i have seen her around for well over a year doing the same thing.

Next favorite person on my list is this fella who always hangs out at the walgreens drug store late at night. I go there sometimes to rent a movie at the redbox and there he is. I usually give him money. Oh and for the record i some times give this lady money too. I didnt say i didnt try and help when i can i just hate the way she does it and the fact that she doesnt seem to be starving any. Anyways this fella this one night trys to hit me up and this night he must have forgotten he told me 2 weeks ago he had 2 kids because this night he needs money for his wife and 4 kids. LOL. I asked him how his wife was after having twins and he looked at me funny then said she didnt have twins. Oh really i said because you obviously had 2 kids recently. Long story short he got pissed at me. He actually had the gall to try and go off on me and when he did i bucked up and starred him right in the eye and said just about what i am saying in this thread. "Look here my friend, i work for a livin. You want money then go get a job and quit making up stories about your fake wife and kids." I told him i usually give you money when i have it but tonight i dont have it. so ease up off me. He got real apologetic with me and was like woah big man calm down no need to get an attitutde. The heck there isnt. I am sick of it. Its everywhere.

The other day we had the cops at that same walgreens because 2 panhandlers got into a fight in the median there across form the drugstore. Why were they fighting? Because they both were trying to work the same spot and there were too many across the light from there on the other side of the main road. LOL.

I know alot of people in this world come by hard times and end up in situations they didnt ask for. I think what the OP and people like myself are trying to point out is there are alot of people abusing the system and alot of people who just dont care anymore. They simply just wont try because our government has created a system that is easy to defraud and easy to manipulate.

As someone else pointed out that i hadnt considered was, that if its better to provide for your family by being on welfare when you dont actually need it but can still get it then you owe it to your family to do so. Man that is simply backwards logic and wrong. Wrong in the eyes of someone who believes in working for what you get in life. However your right when it comes to doing what is best for your family. So who do you blame then when your system forces a person to give up their values and beliefs in order to do whats best for their family?

Anyone in need and i mean truly in need deserves help. I am one who backs people who serve and have served in the armed forces 100%. Those people deserve to be treated with the best. I would give up my seat at a resteraunt to a vet if it was the only one left as well as anything else i could for you guys. I wish i had served. It wasnt my thing when i was young.

People who are sick and cant work, people who are elderly like my mother who have to live with her own children and paid into social security, only to be told all she can get is $900 a month and $29 a month from food stamps deserve better. They DESERVE IT!! People like my father who worked all his life to be refused for social security benefits when he got cancer deserve better. He fell through the cracks because he made too much money. Although he made just enough to support his wife and kids all his life. The VA screwed him over as well and he did his part for this country.

Too many HARD WORKING americans suffer while way too many get by on easy street doing nothing. Now i dont care what anyone thinks about what you do to contribute to society in order to be able to stand up and point out that wrong is wrong. I dont think the OP was judging anyone, rather making a very very valid point about the system we live in. Its broken. It needs to be fixed and not another program created to try and fix the others. In my opinion thats all the dems ever do and they are so much for social programs because it keeps bringing in more slaves everyday. I refuse to take a handout unless it means i have to feed my kid because although i dont have much in this world what i have is mine. Noone gave it to me. That i can be proud of and i can die broke but unashamed for the life i have. Those that need it should feel no shame. Those who dont need, should be ashamed!!! Its what our country was built on.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 01:48 AM
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Oh and a quick note regarding people being sick and finding yourself in that situation one day.( i ran out of room on the other reply) Well i did find my way into that situation. I have a heart condition from years of undiagnosed high blood pressure. neurocardiogenic syncope is what its called. I got a nice pacemaker and ended up on atenelol at the age of 36. I dont cry about it, i dont ask my docotor to sign me disabled so i can collect disability even though he told me he could and i could. I dont because i really dont need it. I dont want more than what i am owed. If i work for it you owe me. if i dont then its not mine. I get up every day and i work regardless of whats wrong with me. My father did it before me and i hope my son does it after me. If more people had this kind of ethical outlook and sense of right and wrong then this country would be alot better than it is today. Too many people are content to sit on their rear ends and i mean content. Not just forced to but happy and glad they are there. I have known quite a few of them in my day. I dont blame individuals AS MUCH as i blame a system that enables people to abandon any type of morality regarding entitlement vs responsibility.

Again just my 2 cents worth which i am sure uncle sam is going to tax to pay for another social program.


(face palm)



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by one4all
Mr.Mask,congratulations,you got it right and no one even noticed?


I noticed and liked his post very much.

I was not used to seeing such a statement from him, and I still wonder if he was sarcastic


90% chance says it was sarcasm.

But I can't say for sure, maybe ATS is getting to him ?



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 02:11 AM
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reply to post by fizzy1
 


Sorry, but as a Vietnam vet, an ex-shrimper, an ex-college instructor, ex-business owner, caregiver, ex-electrician, I damn well feel I've earned the right to ask what folks have contributed that gives them the right to look down and be judgmental of those in inferior circumstances.

If we are to be a viable country, we must look to the needy and not begrudge our fellows not only the minimum physical needs, but also we must not deprive them of their dignity as human beings. Sure some take advantage of the system, but who games the system more: an unscrupulous building contractor or a welfare cheat? Who has the greater scope for taking more than they've earned, a corporate lawyer or a welfare recipient? But to paint any large group as lazy, worthless, and parasitical is not only unfair and hurtful, as the OP felt when I tarred his profession with the same broad brush he used, it is suicidal behavior on a national scale.

Where we are as a nation has more to do with Wall Street gambling than any other single reason. Hard on its heels are all the corporate decisions that made sense from a single-company perspective, but were tragic for the country. Shipping out all the jobs has nearly killed the economy. I can't blame people for gaming the system, seems like everyone up and down the ladder is doing it to the scale they can, at the top, it's truly spectacular. So what if some choose to take what they can? How does that differ from a corporation offshoring profits from substandard products to avoid paying taxes?

The country is sick and will get sicker. Heaping scorn and abuse downwards doesn't help. Survival of the economic fittest doesn't build a nation, it builds a group of untrustworthy cutthroats. The nation isn't filled with a bunch of lazy freeloaders, it's filled with people hungry for something real to do for a livable wage, something beyond being consumers. The last real goal we had as a nation was getting to the moon. There are tons of legitimate things to be done, but the financiers and corporate types don't want to do them, they prefer the lazy money of consumerism. But a lot of people are fed up with being consumers.

What we need are caps: it is societally inefficient to allow unlimited wealth. Capping wealth a $1 billion, mandatory economic retirement at that level, would eliminate a lot of problems. Trickle down works only if there is a ceiling.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 02:20 AM
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reply to post by fizzy1
 


And did you pay full price for the heart surgery and pacemaker?

No? Then someone subsidized you. You took more than you paid for.

If the hypertension was due to lifestyle choice, some would say you cotributed to the pronlem.

I'm not trying to rag on either you or the OP, but I'm striving to make you understand that in a complex society, things aren't always as clearcut as you think, and that each of us takes more than we earn in some way or another.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by apacheman
What we need are caps: it is societally inefficient to allow unlimited wealth. Capping wealth a $1 billion, mandatory economic retirement at that level, would eliminate a lot of problems. Trickle down works only if there is a ceiling.


Have to disagree with you there too. (I'm really disagreeable tonight, aren't I?
) I agree that people who have that kind of wealth don't really need that much. No one needs that much money. And I'll even admit to a bit of jealousy that they have that much. But it's not my place to tell them they can't have it. Could they have earned it through nefarious means? Sure. Could they have earned it legitimately? I'm sure it's possible, and I'd love to know how so I can do it too.
It's their money and no one has the right to tell them they can't have the money they earned. Or inherited for that matter.

It would make more sense, to me at least for whatever that's worth, to take away the benefits of exploiting people for cheap labor outside the country and give them more of an incentive to put that money to use hiring people inside the country instead. I'm not an economist by any definition, but I'm sure there is a way to do that through import taxes and things like that without resorting to a bunch of tax breaks for rich companies that would still entice them to hire people here for a living wage instead of slave labor elsewhere. That would help with getting people off welfare as well. Especially now when the job market is slim.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 02:41 AM
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reply to post by Jenna
 


So if I can buy a forest, that gives me the right to cut down all the trees? Can I take a submachine gun and kill the whole herd of deer? Take every fish from a lake? Drive 180 on the freeway because I own a Ferrari?

No to all of them because they all share a common characteristic: they are shared resources that society places limits on for the common good.

Likewise the economy is a shared resource, and limits must be placed on how much an individual can take, for the common good.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 02:51 AM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by fizzy1
 


And did you pay full price for the heart surgery and pacemaker?

No? Then someone subsidized you. You took more than you paid for.

If the hypertension was due to lifestyle choice, some would say you cotributed to the pronlem.

I'm not trying to rag on either you or the OP, but I'm striving to make you understand that in a complex society, things aren't always as clearcut as you think, and that each of us takes more than we earn in some way or another.


Umm ok yes i did pay. I pay for the insurance i get. I paid the bill when i was done. So yes i paid. I still pay for the insurance i dont use and for the rising cost of healthcare. I worked at said hospital when my heart stipped. I was at work when it happened. yeah i paid. I pay everytime i go to the doctor while so many others dont. They get fre free free off my tax dollars. I pay full price for my son to go to his psychiatrist for his adhd and other problems because my insurance doesnt cover but so many visits. I pay for his meds that cost me out the you know what because insurance only covers so much. yeah i pay. I pay alot and i keep paying while i watch others. You know i may not pay FULL price but i pay. And i pay into the system for things i dont get. My problem isnt that people pay and get more than they paid in its the ones who get EVERYTHING and dont pay in. Get it yet???
You still are coming off as provocative and arrogant. Your being abrasive to the OP and now me and YOU dont get it.
I pay and will pay till the day i die but what gives these freeloading wastes of space who WONT try not cant WONT. I capitalize again WONT try the right to have anything when i struggle to keep my kid with food and clothes.
Ahh forget it your iggy now too. i am tired of wasting my time.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by apacheman
So if I can buy a forest, that gives me the right to cut down all the trees?


It's your land, so yes you could. It happens all the time.


Can I take a submachine gun and kill the whole herd of deer?


No hunting license I've ever heard of allows an entire herd of deer to be wiped out at once. Though if they're on your property, there wouldn't be much to stop you.


Take every fish from a lake?


If it's your lake, you sure can.


Drive 180 on the freeway because I own a Ferrari?


You could. You'd get pulled over and possibly arrested for reckless endangerment, but you could still do it.


No to all of them because they all share a common characteristic: they are shared resources that society places limits on for the common good.

Likewise the economy is a shared resource, and limits must be placed on how much an individual can take, for the common good.


Private land is not a shared resource. I also don't find any of your examples remotely similar to someone having $1 billion or more. Wildlife are protected by laws so they aren't hunted (or fished) to extinction. Not for the common good of the people, but so we don't destroy an entire species out of recklessness. The people receive no direct benefit from a herd of deer or a lake full of fish. Granted we receive a direct benefit from a forest (oxygen), but there is nothing to prevent someone from leveling a forest on privately owned land so long as it isn't declared a natural reserve. Driving 180 on the freeway is a violation of traffic laws and endangers the lives of others. Having $1 billion, on the other hand, isn't a violation of any law and endangers no one.



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 03:16 AM
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reply to post by Jenna
 


True there is a difference between having the ability and having the permission.

Let's change the forest scenario: since they are mine and they are on private land, then I can burn them if I like, and you can take care of your trees as best you can. Still ok?

I didn't say the lake was private, my case refers to a publicly shared and maintained lake, as the economy is not private either.

To say that there is no danger in huge wealth is a bit of a stretch, though.

I can truthfully assert that Bill Gates's wealth might be financing terrorism and he'd have a very hard time disproving it, since he isn't sure exactly what he even owns at any given point, much less what use it is being put to. even on a benign level, the billionaire who demands 5% annual growth of his wealth sucks an enormous amount out of the economy, money that isn't wisely or productively used for the most part.

In any case from where do you derive a right to unlimited wealth?



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 03:34 AM
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Originally posted by apacheman
Let's change the forest scenario: since they are mine and they are on private land, then I can burn them if I like, and you can take care of your trees as best you can. Still ok?


They're still your trees, so yes you could burn them if you wanted as long as you weren't violating any laws. You'd run into trouble if the fire got out of control, but they're your trees. I might disagree with you burning an entire forest, but it's your property, your business. Not my place to tell you that you can't do it.


I didn't say the lake was private, my case refers to a publicly shared and maintained lake, as the economy is not private either.


In all fairness you didn't say it wasn't either. In the case of a public lake, a fishing license is required and all fishing licenses come with limits as to how many and what size fish you can keep and what you have to put back. As far as I'm aware, at any rate. I'm not much of a fisherman so I'm not well-versed in fishing licenses.


I can truthfully assert that Bill Gates's wealth might be financing terrorism and he'd have a very hard time disproving it, since he isn't sure exactly what he even owns at any given point, much less what use it is being put to. even on a benign level, the billionaire who demands 5% annual growth of his wealth sucks an enormous amount out of the economy, money that isn't wisely or productively used for the most part.


Could you truthfully assert that every billionaire might be financing terrorism though? Is 'might be' in the case of one enough to limit what everyone can have? Would that not be yet another case of punishing the many for the sins of the one?

Assuming for a moment that Gates was financing terrorism intentionally, limiting his wealth would be the least of concerns.


In any case from where do you derive a right to unlimited wealth?


Where do you derive the right to limit how much someone else is allowed to acquire whether it's wealth, physical property, or whatever. If it's legally acquired, it's theirs. The good of the whole cannot override the rights of any one person if that person isn't harming anyone. Being rich in and of itself does not harm anyone else.



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