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John McCain: Do Not Read NYC Bombing Suspect His Rights Untill All Facts Are Known

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posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by mike_trivisonno
 


Yeah. So lets just throw away the constitution and the rights that belong to us to preserve our way of life and freedom.

That makes a lot of sense!
No, let's unwaiveringly follow our own laws and principles!
To make the US a police state is just the flip side of making it an Islamic state. I really get sick of cowardice and panic. We managed to last out Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Soviet Russia without abandoning our ideals, ( though guys like you urged us to), stop the fear mongering and have some guts.




posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
Sigh. If we continue to follow your advice...


My only advice is to follow the law and the Constitution of our country. Your foresight of the future is based on ignorance and fear, and nothing of substance.



We have no obligation to submit ti Islam or Allah in any fashion or allow our system to be used as a weapon against us.


I agree with this and have made no suggestion to the contrary.



Oh well, Islam needs dhimmis too.


The religion of the suspect is irrelevant to this situation. Religion is irrelevant. His motivation is irrelevant. What matters is - did he do it or not? If so, he will be punished according to OUR LAW.

Just FYI, I am without religion. I care not for religion. It's not part of my life. You can go after me personally if you wish, but it just goes to show how weak your actual argument is, on merit, that you resort to such tactics.

[edit on 5/4/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by mike_trivisonno
 


I'm as familiar with this "enemy" as you are... You're the one who wants to do away with the freedoms of some, in order to protect the freedoms of others... I submit that when you do that none are free... Because you start to wonder, who's next...who get's their freedoms curtailed to protect the others...

That way lies tyranny...and I'm not going in that direction. Sounds trite, but I'll die first.

Just out of curiosity...

Who's next, after you've "beaten" this enemy by becoming the very thing you rail against? Folks with the same attitude that you've expressed always need an enemy...so, who's next?



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by webpirate
 


The courts have backed up LEO's lying to an accused is all well and good.

So what does Miranda Rights really have anything to do with anything?

I am sure everyone knows that if you are not charged with a crime, the LEO's do not have to Mirandize someone. They can say any damn thing they want. To anyone. Period.

They have a limited window to use this though. I believe it to be 48 or 72 hours, I do not remember which. I believe then they can Mirandize and continue the interrogation. UNTIL the accused actually asks for a lawyer and demands the interrogation not continue, they can lie and scheme all they want.

Do not be disingenuous.


I believe the case to which you are referring is MISSOURI v. SEIBERT - 542 U.S. 600. (2004)

This dealt with basically how police had learned to circumvent the Miranda requirements through multi-part interrogations. this was a practice where police were first obtaining an inadmissible confession without giving Miranda warnings, then issuing the warnings, and then obtaining a second confession.



Of course in the day and age of the Patriot Act, everything is out the window.


This is addressed further with NEW YORK V. QUARLES, 467 U. S. 649 (1984) which dealt with the public safety requirement to the Miranda Rights. This involved a girl approaching police saying she had been raped. She described the suspect and police soon after found him. After a short chase and briefly loosing him, the police find and detain him. They frisk him and find an empty holster. they ask him where the gun is and he tells them. This has held up to Miranda, and was just reaffirmed after 64 days still posing a threat to public safety with the case ofRichard Allen Davis abducting Polly Klaas.

I know what you are trying to say here. Since 9/11 everything is being thrown out the window citing the Patriot Act and court cases that deal with "public safety." Everything done is all political maneuvering with loads of horse$##! thrown in on the side.

My point is though that just because this is being done, that doesn't mean the American people have to stoop to the level of our "leaders."

As for human rights, other than the "certain unalienable rights" clause of the Deceleration of Independence the other major thing is the Preamble to the US Constitution which says :


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


I think I understand your point. It might all be irrelevant, but the people don't need to ignore others rights like the world leaders do or for that matter the religion of the people we are accusing of certain crimes. Or the religion the accusers are standing behind.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by webpirate]



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by seagull
 


tyranny....it is incredibly conniving, and can sneak up on us....


"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."


Yes, I know....'trite' too, and well over-used.

Bears repeating, though, it seems.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:52 AM
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Wow - and John McCain once called himself a "Maverick".

He's become more Republican than most Republicans while he's facing a reelection challenge.

Suspend Miranda Rights of a suspected felon? I'm SO glad this guy didn't become President.

I thought Miranda Rights were supposed to be read at the time of the arrest, regardless of the suspected crime?

This person is not a prisoner of war, he's a regular suspect and should be accorded all the rights that a re allowed under the US justice system.

I'm not condoning his suspected actions, just saying that we shouldn't pick and choose who gets Miranda Rights and who doesn't.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
Your laws mean nothing.


I just ran across this statement by you in another thread...


Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
Communism bad. Constitution good.


Now which is it? Do you support the Constitution or not? Is it all-important or do our laws mean nothing? Or are you a "fair-weather" Constitutionalist, only supporting it when it protects you and not when it protects those with whom you disagree?

I'm getting a pretty clear picture here. Religious bigotry is no different than any other kind of bigotry. It's ugly. Baaaad ugly.

[edit on 5/4/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by dolphinfan
 


Why? Pakistan is a "democracy" and a "friend" of the United States.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by webpirate
 


I know, I know.

It just infuriates me the political maneuvering involved in this crappola.

People try to denigrate one political talking head over another and both sides are being disingenuous.

You have the right to remain silent. You do not have to talk to the cops.

That is your right.

Now, the courts and the police use the color of law to circumnavigate this not by anything unlawful really, just obfuscational tricks.

I think this has more to do with keeping the public in the dark of what our rights are.

Everyone needs to know that just keep your damn mouth shut. If you do not want to talk to them, you do not have to.

The Patriot Act has to go. Absolutely.

One innocent person in jail is not worth putting 50 criminals in jail. Not worth 5000 in jail. That is one of the basic tenets of our criminal justice system.

I always refer back to the idea that citizens as a whole need to defend their rights. That includes use of deadly force in your own defense. If a police officer has the right of deadly force, that in and of itself is proof that we as citizens have the same right.

This whole charade is just that, a charade. I wish some New York gang banger would have seen this incident unfold and defended himself.

I am old school. Sometimes street justice is a bitch, sometimes it is just that, justice.

Life is not a guarantee. The government cannot and will not protect you from everything. The government has to tell the citizenry that we need to take a stand. We either give them our rights for our security, or they tell us to use our own God given rights of self defense. Just because the government uses hysteria over terrorism to further their agenda, does not make it right.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by Maxmars
 


The right to remain silent comes from precedent.

It comes from the basic right to not incriminate oneself.

If you feel it is fascist, why do you not rail against it all the time?

This has been used for a very long time. A long time. Ask the many LEO's here.

As I said, if you do not know your rights and do not use them, who's fault is that?


Perhaps I misspoke or was muddled in my thinking. It is not the right to remain silent that I think is fascist, but the nerve of a government who, in the name of the people, 'waive' that right based upon policy-makers decisions which suffer no oversight - until after they have unconstitutionally stripped a person of their unalienable rights.

Unalienable, self-evident, ethically imperative protections for all people is the foundation. We lack the legislators to restore that maxim, at this time.

That being said, the investigators have too much power if they can postulate a reality upon which justice acts, unless that power is countered by legal council genuinely devoted to fair play and equality. Sounds like a fantasy now, doesn't it?



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 


Yes, a very good fantasy.

The government is using the fear of the people to institute these things.

People need to take responsibility for their own lives. This nanny state crap is what is bringing about all of this. Because people actually believe they can be protected by the government, is why this stuff happens.

The people scream for protection from everything. They want to be protected from the economy, from the evil drugs, from terrorists, from these evil countries around the world, from the big bad wolf, etc etc etc.

I am appalled by the absolute venal subjugation of my fellow Americans.

Where the hell are their balls! Where the hell is their pride! Where is their stalwart feelings of self determination.

I swear, someone has to kick some sense into my fellow humans before the governments of the world are parading us like dogs at the local dog show.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


Press conference happening right now, on CNN (and other channels, I imagine).

"Shazah" has made many statements....he seems to be talking his head off....



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Kind of funny breakdown on the information.

The backpatting will be on going for awhile.

The whole arrest was orchestrated because the bomb did not go off.

Paraphrase, "The new rules were useful in the arrest".

Bull#. The arrest came from standard investigation of a crime scene. Period.

But, they need to continue to further the lie that the "new rules" actually work.

SOP.

I would like to see one incident that has been prevented by the intrusion of our rights and privacy. I have not seen one yet. Better to infringe on our rights I guess.

Who was this guy? Is he a citizen? When did he get citizenship? If not a citizen, what country is he from?

Has this information been released yet?



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


I saw something this morning but have to go back and find it now, that they are already looking into his citizenship papers. He does have US Citizenship, but it seems like they were thinking...or hoping at least I bet, that some of the information he used on his application was false.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


I get what you're saying....BUT...

IF 'he' (the suspect) had been more competent, and IF his improvised bobmb had exploded (as he had apparently hoped) THEN the forensics investigation would have taken MUCH,, MUCH longer.

See?

His iincompetence made it much, much easier to catch him.

HAD the bomb gone, off, and IF he had fled ther country (as he attempted) THEN the trail back to him would have been much harder to follow.

I think this is very obvious, in view of how events have unfolded.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:59 PM
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The Miranda warning is read when two criteria are met. 1. accusitory questions are being asked. 2. You are in custody. (clearly you understand that you are not free to go). So if the cops come into your house and start asking questions are you free to go? Yes. Do they have to provide you Miranda? No. Now if they arrest you do they have to read you Miranda? Only when they start asking accusitory questions. So keep your mouth shut! If your in the back seat of the police car, the cops say nothing to you and just drive you to the police station and you spill your guts. Everything that you said probably would have been recorded and probably video taped too. So keep your mouth shut! When you ask for an attorney all questions should stop. Don't get cute, they are professionals. They do this day in and day out. If you try to be cute and play I'm smarter than the cops and start a dialogue.. they will get you. Keep your mouth shut! Be cordial, be polite, don't give them a reason to make you a personal project because you got them angry. Of course if your taken to some super secret Gulag then all bets are off.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by Klaatumagnum
 


Klaatu Barada Nicto.

See the 'YouTube' link I provided, up above. Takes longer, but says the same thing, essentially.

'Nanu-Nanu'!



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Yep. Trite. Yet true.

People who need enemies to justify the reduction of our freedoms will always, always need an enemy...even if they need to make one up.

I'm not blind to the threat that radicals, muslim included, pose to us who are a bit more moderate in our beliefs. We still need to fight them within the law where all men are, in theory, equal.



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
Jihadists should be stripped of American citizenship and sent to prison.

They are not Americans once they enter The Camp of Islam. They become the enemy and need not be afforded any comfort or kindness.




The guy isn't guilty of being a "jihadist".. he's just a dude suspected of a crime.. happens every day.

On the other hand.. mien fuhrer mccain and his gop lackey pal are guilty, by their own admission, of 1930s german fascism by their stated desire to deny this US citizens of his rights...

Besides the suggestion that the US govt is objective or competent enough to collect and report all "the facts" is laughable..



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by Klaatumagnum
 


Applause!!!

If you are arrested for anything... Shut the heck up, and wait for your lawyer. You may be smarter than one cop, but you ain't smarter than all of 'em...



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