Who cares if Jesus was real?

reply to post by FlightOfTheNavigator


Parents using television, or religion come to think of it, to "educate" their children is a pretty sad thing, though I do understand your analogy.

South Park, believe it or not, summed the Jesus real versus fake debate up pretty well in the Imaginationland episodes by saying it doesn't matter if he was real he's still had a bigger influence on the world than most people. Its the teachings that matter not whether he was real, just like its the fact you learned to count, NOT that it was a fake puppet teaching you, that matters.

Even a fictional character can teach you things and if those things are profound than the fictional nature of the teacher shouldn't cheapen them.

reply to post by catwhoknows


You now whats wild those who speak within this thread and do not acknowledge he was real are dammed for this is the best way to see who is who. NO demon believes he was real ever so sit back as this thread does its job. Good job oh and HE IS REAL

[edit on 5/4/10 by Ophiuchus 13]

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Wrong.

Where do you get your knowledge?

I'm not a Christian anymore but in the years I spent being one I learned quite a bit... like the fact that Demons ALL know the name of Jesus and fear it. I don't want to be caught arguing pro-religion but you should probably open your Bible sometime if you plan on being a Christian for long

33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil[a]spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34"Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!

Luke 4:31-36

James 2:19 is a bit more vague but means basically the same thing:

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Please don't say they are damned; it's the recognition of what demons are, and how insiduous they are that needs address - and how many cast themselves down from the love of God to their own detriment and that of others. Not working in the vineyard until late in the day is still possible, and it is still up to the Owner of the vineyard as to the wage offered for the day. I wish I'd known what I experienced to this point at an earlier age, however, more important is to consider the unknown time of our demise.

I agree with you completely though, no one will profess that Jesus is the Lord while they are under the influence of an evil spirit (among other reasons).

Praise the Lord and goodwill be spread

Gday,

Originally posted by catwhoknows
People argue all the time about the reality of Jesus.

But the teachings of Jesus - ok, who did these teachings? Jesus did, so He was real.

Jesus said :

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household"

Funny how the violent bits get ignored, but everyone quotes the peaceful bits.


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by FlightOfTheNavigator

 

Love others.
Forgive others.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
Have a nice life in Hell then.

Hypocrisy - the first fruits of Christianity.


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by undo
yeah it was talking about people not being able to get along in the same house because one is a believer and the other is not
the word "sword" comes from the root "fight"
[edit on 4-5-2010 by undo]

So,
Jesus came to cause FIGHTS, not peace.


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Love one another, the Golden Rule, forgiveness, are the real lessons of the story regardless of whether Jesus was real and regardless of whether he was really who he claimed to be.

So,
you also just IGNORE parts like Matthew 10:34 ?

You just read the bits you like, and ignore the nasty bits ?


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by RonNasty
After reading "Jesus goes to Hollywood : the alternative theories about Christ" by William Bramley, I was left with the belief that HE did exist.

William Bramley?
As credible as Velikovsky or Von Daniken or AchayraS

Originally posted by RonNasty
Somebody has gone to the trouble to erase all records of his existence.

Really?
Do you have any EVIDENCE for that claim?
Oh, right, it was erased!


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
...he's still had a bigger influence on the world than most people.

Jesus himself had ZERO influence on anybody.
Not one Christian ever claimed to have met him.
There is NO historical record for him.

But decades LATER - BELIEFS about Jesus had a HUGE influence.
But Jesus himself?
Nothing what-so-ever.


K.

Hmm... Christians kind of care if Jesus was real.

Muslims also care if Jesus was real (Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet).

That's only like half of the world's population right there....

[edit on 5-5-2010 by FalselyFlagged]

I think he was real, alot hangs on the fact that he was,such as the resurrection.
Must say i think his teachings are spot on.

regards to all

Not one Christian ever claimed to have met him.

Really? So, do you keep your time-travel machine in your garage, or do you leave it parked out on the street? Does Mr Peabody navigate for you?

Must have been a lot of work interviewing every Christian living around ... what do you think? 32 of the Common Era?

There is NO historical record for him.

...which, although it appears to the untrained eye to be English, is actually K-speak for "I am unpersuaded by what historical record there is."

In Fanatsyland, those two are just the same thing. And only there.

I am sympathetic to atheist reluctance to concede Jesus' historicity on such a thin record. But "improving the facts" is wrong, whichever side tries to pull that stunt.

But decades LATER - BELIEFS about Jesus had a HUGE influence.
But Jesus himself?
Nothing what-so-ever.

And the alternative would be - what?

Jesus had long since gone home decades LATER (which I have learned is not to be confused with mere lower-case "decades later.") All that's left then are living people, who have beliefs (or maybe even BELIEFS in some cases) about him.

A situation likely to persist, no? And how unlike influential historical figures generally.

I think Kapyong does a praiseworthy service to the thread, in helping to illustrate why it matters whether or not there once was a flesh-and-blood Jesus. The Kumbaya-moment speeches work great whether there was a real Jesus or not.

However, the meaning of the allegedly "difficult" sayings is very different, depending on whether they were spoken by a real person, saying things that made immediate sense to a specific living audience who resided with the speaker in a shared historical, political, religious and social setting, or are just some "deep" sounding falderol cooked up to keep latter-day priests, and their atheist critics, fully employed.

Post Removed...

I'm not going to get into another one of these threads... They never accomplish anything.

[edit on 5-5-2010 by USAFJetTech]

Gday,

Originally posted by eight bits

There is NO historical record for him.

...which, although it appears to the untrained eye to be English, is actually K-speak for "I am unpersuaded by what historical record there is."

It's just the plain facts.
There are no historical RECORDS of Jesus.

Sure, we have religious books about Jesus,
and we have records of Christians who believed in Jesus.

But actual historical records of Jesus?

Zero.


K.

Originally posted by FeatheredSerpent
Must say i think his teachings are spot on.

Really?

Such as :

4 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth!
I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!’ "

Is Jesus a god of war ?


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by eight bits

Not one Christian ever claimed to have met him.

Really? So, do you keep your time-travel machine in your garage, or do you leave it parked out on the street? Does Mr Peabody navigate for you?

Must have been a lot of work interviewing every Christian living around ... what do you think? 32 of the Common Era?

Oh please !

You know perfectly well what I meant, considering I have said it dozens of times. Now you are reduced to silly word games?


In all the dozens of Christian books we DO have - none have an authentic claim to have met Jesus.

Of course, I say authentic, because 2 Peter forged in the 2nd century DOES contain such a claim - obviously in response to criticism of Christian belief.

Because by later 2nd century, we DO start to see criticism of Christian beliefs as :
"fictional"
"based on myths"
"invented"
"superstition"


The earliest Christian books are from a period when Christians saw Christ as a spiritual being - nothing historical at all.

The Gospel stories arose decades later.


K.

reply to post by Kapyong

Because by later 2nd century, we DO start to see criticism of Christian beliefs as :
"fictional"
"based on myths"
"invented"
"superstition"

Would you please be so kind as to post those authors to whom you are referring or from what sources you obtain you information. For in your thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is no mention of writers who stated that Jesus was a myth.

You know perfectly well what I meant, considering I have said it dozens of times. Now you are reduced to silly word games?

In all the dozens of Christian books we DO have - none have an authentic claim to have met Jesus.

How would you know whether the Beloved Disciple's claim was authentic or not? You have an opinion about it. Big whoop. So does everybody else.

As you helpfully point out, we've all heard it. I am not buying. Let's move on.

Of course, I say authentic, because 2 Peter forged in the 2nd century DOES contain such a claim - obviously in response to criticism of Christian belief.

2 Peter is misattributed, as was a literary custom of the time. Jung used the same convention in his Seven Sermons to the Dead.

Are you saying that Jung forged a Basilides writing? Or is this another one of those "I'm supposed to know perfectly well what you mean" when you misuse ordinary words?

The Bible is literature, K. All literary forms and conventions are eligible to appear in it. Quite a variety do. Since many people are capable of recognizing different genres, it works out fine.

Because by later 2nd century, we DO start to see criticism of Christian beliefs as :
"fictional"
"based on myths"
"invented"
"superstition"

That's nice. So, your theory is that Pliny the Younger knew whether or not Jesus really lived? OK, then I rephrase my earlier question. Did he keep his time travel machine in his garage, or did he park it in the street?

The earliest Christian books are from a period when Christians saw Christ as a spiritual being - nothing historical at all.

Except of course for the parts of Paul that refer to Jesus as a real human being.

Which you read differently than other people do. No doubt other people will read the passages, too, and then come to their own conclusions.

The Gospel stories arose decades later.

So it would seem. And that was bad?

reply to post by Kapyong


Matthew 10:34 is probably my favorite Jesus quote. Jesus isn't talking about a literal sword you know, he's talking about the contention and violence that his teachings of love will cause. Whenever someone comes along telling us to get along and live in peace and love they gain a lot of enemies this is because people in power profit from conflict and suffering. When the systems of power are threatened they lash out. Peace and love can actually be weapons and non-violent resistance can be very powerful.

Jesus was saying that his teachings would do just as much to divide people as they would to unite them and he turned out to be right.

And by the way I do ignore most of the Bible, it makes a very poor moral guide and is filled with self-contradictions and errors. The flawed nature of the book doesn't stop Jesus from being one of my favorite philosophical minds. Which is why it doesn't matter whether he was real or not, regardless his teachings have changed the world.

[edit on 5-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]


[edit on 5-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]