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Jesus the messiah of Satan??

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posted on May, 4 2010 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by ZeoV7
 


About the Obama's accomplishments issue. wiki.answers.com...




posted on May, 4 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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Hi Isawdit

You think ‘Iesous’ and ‘Lucifer’ are different? Hmmm….

Have a VERY close look at the mangled Greek text of Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) specificlaly chapter 22:16


"Thus speaks the One who has sent my Messenger
to give you this Testimony
even for the behalf of the Yahadim (‘communities’, ‘churches’)
Amen, it is I, even Iesous
For I am the Root and the Spawn of David,
I am Lucifer, the Bright and Morning Star."

Also see Apoc. Yohanon (‘Book of Revelation’) = specifically chapter 2:28

For the Yahadim.

26 He who has ears, let him hear.
For in that day, to him that overcomes unto the end,
To cling fast to the Works of the Torah (Ma’aseh haTorah)
to him will I give power to rule over the Goyim (gentiles)

27 So too in that day he shall rule with me
When I shall dash the Gentiles in pieces
Even as a potter’s vessel is smashed with an Iron Rod

And to him will I give him the Authority
Even the same Power I have received from my Father.
28 And I will bestow upon him the name: Lucifer, the bright Morning Star.

Then see the anonymous (or ‘pseudonymous’) writer of 2 Pet 1:19

And we have the word of the prophets confirmed:
and thus you should to pay attention to it,
even as the light shines in a dark place,
until the Day dawns
and Lucifer rises in your hearts.


See Proto-Isaiah 14:12

How you have fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
You who would lay low the goyim (‘gentiles’) !
You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
Even above the sons of EL;
I will sit enthroned
Even upon the mount of assembly of the gods,
and upon the utmost heights
even of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High EL."
But now, lo, you are brought down to the grave,
Even to the very depths of She’ol !


Sounds like LUCIFER is kind of a moving target in the 'bible', wouldn't you say?



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Yes, I'm an Atheist and proud.


For somebody that is a proud Atheist, you are sure expending an awful lot of energy researching, reading, and surfing the web to find statements that will upset, question and cause general negativity.

A question about Christ, possibly being the Anti-Christ, carries with it a lot of religious "stretching". And, you are putting quite a bit of thought into all of this.

So, my conclusions are this:

1. You are not quite the "Atheist" you purport to be. You are simply stating that you are an Atheist because you feel it is cool, or it might, somehow, add a bit of extra abrasion to your posts.

2. You are offering nothing but negative information and sources, which means that you have no interest in the truth. An interest in the truth would investigate all angles. Again, you are simply going for shock value.

3. Not being a Christian, and not being an Atheist, the truth is, you are probably just somebody whom, like so many others, are enjoying the squirming of Christians, because you really don't have any "anchor" to the pro, or the con of the argument. You definitely seem to be enjoying it.

What does all of this mean?:

You are simply creating another hate thread, and getting off on the negativity toward Christians. Maybe hoping for some stars and flags. But, definitely hoping for some good,nasty, passionate arguments between people that actually DO care about the subject matter. Both, Christians and true Atheists.

Pretty Sad.

This thread topic is a ruse.



[edit on 4-5-2010 by UruFist]



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 10:59 PM
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reply to post by UruFist
 


Yes, I said that. And I apologize for acting like an idiot. This thread was not meant to go out of control. I was wanting to point out that I don't find Jesus as the messiah promised to the Jews. And maybe, if he was real, that it's possible he was very different then what we think of him now.



posted on May, 5 2010 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by UruFist
 


Yes, I said that. And I apologize for acting like an idiot. This thread was not meant to go out of control. I was wanting to point out that I don't find Jesus as the messiah promised to the Jews. And maybe, if he was real, that it's possible he was very different then what we think of him now.

I understand. And, yeah, it stinks that people have filtered, and clouded and altered so much of the messages that somebody gave to us long ago. And, this goes, probably, for all cultures, and beliefs.
All filtered through people, into what we have now.

Anyway. I was never a "Christian" until I came across some older books. I was kind of in a situation where my job had me isolated, at weird hours, with nothing to do, nobody around, and these books staring me in the face.
So, I read them.
They were written at the turn of the century, about 100 years ago. An educated writer did, what was called a "scientific study" of the Bible. Something aside from what was being taught in churches. But, not straying from the book.
I'm not going to take your thread off track here. But, let's just say that it was what I needed.



posted on May, 5 2010 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by faceoff85
 


Ok, you can put down the Watchtower.

Charles T. Russell's version of the bible, and Jehovah's false-Witnesses are the only ones on the planet that subscribe to the John 1:1 "contraversy"

Maybe you should read Deut. 6:4 in the Hebrew. The word for "one" in Deut. 6:4 is "echad," which often used for describing a composite unity such as one cluster of grapes. Ever wonder why Elohim is a plural of Eloah? No one is saying there are 3 Gods, the Bible implicity defines God as three persons 1 GOD.

By the way the word 'Bible' is not once in the Bible, does that mean it has pagan origins?



posted on May, 5 2010 @ 05:35 PM
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Hi King of MD

Echad gramatically in this case (Deut 6:4) means 'only' or 'alone'

YHWH ELOHENU (='Yahweh is our clan-god')
YHWH ECHAD (='Yahweh alone') or ('[and] only Yahweh')

Of course many English speaking persons maul it to pieces with stupid ungrammatical phrases like 'THE LORD OUR GOD THE LORD IS ONE' which makes absolutely no gramatical sense (at least syntactically) in English - but they keep saying like moronic robots anyway week after week in the synagogues and in the churches.

The Phrase really means in to-day's modern English:

"Yahweh is our clan god - Yahweh alone !"

It is a pronouncement of the Yahwistic cult which became 'set' (i.e. official) only during the time of Ezra's monotheistic reforms (c. BCE 420)

Prior to the Exile into Babylon (587 BCE) the benei Yisro'el worshipped a variety of clan-gods and godddesses in a variety of different cult sanctuaries scattered all over Palestine (Bethel-Liuz, Karnayim, Megiddo, Shiloah, Shechem, Shomeron etc.) despite Josiah's reforms to consolidate the 'high places' to a single sanctuary in Jerusalem (c. 621 BCE).

After the Exile (24 Priestly Families were marched off to Babylon along with metalworkers or anyone who could foster a rebellion in 587 BCE) only 4 ultra orthodox Yahwistic priestly families ever bothered to return when the Persians offered to pay for their return (these 4 families came back to Jerusalem PRECISELY BECAUSE they were rightest of the right- wing Yahwistic fanatics who did not want to mix into the local Babylonian non yahwistic cult-ure)

That is why most of the 'old testament' is heavilly Yahwistic (though earlier strands pop out from time to time from the older cults of Asherah, Chockmah, El Elyon, Ba'al, Azazel, El-Shaddai etc.) - it was not written down until after the 4 right winger families came back with their slogan YHWH ELOHENU YHWH ECHAD.

Only Yahweh - not (as before) Yahweh and his Asherah (wife) or Yahweh, Ba'al and his Asherah as we see in shrines such as in Elephantine (built to house the Ark when it left Palestine (or one of them !) during the time of Mannasseh (c. 680 BCE).

I don't think grapes have anything to do with ECHAD in this instance.









[edit on 5-5-2010 by Sigismundus]



posted on May, 5 2010 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


If you actually pay attention to the words of Christ you will see He promotes a peaceful, pacifist method that is aided and strengthened by the power of God. It is a slow and sure tale of understanding, empathy and compassion winning out in the long run, over self righteous indignation and pride.

He says that God (or goodness if you broaden the message) is it's own reward. The pain and suffering of the smallest among us is considered and admonished, warned against.

These are not talking points for satan. (of the small s)



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 11:37 AM
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Hi Russthorcain--

You can't be serious. Peaceful loving rabbi's don't get themselves strung up naked on cross-gibbets spread eagled for armed insurrection against the state.

I mean, you DID know (didn't you?) that ROMAN CRUCIFIXION was the SPECIFIC ultimate penalty during the Roman Occupation of Palestine in the 1st century CE SPECIFICALLY for ARMED REBELLION / SEDITION against the State

(specifically, against the majesty of the 'divine' Emperor Tiberius - legally breach of Lex Maiestatis, the so-called 'No King by Caesar' Law) which carried the death penalty ?

Or maybe you DIDN'T know WHY people in occupied Judaea were crucified naked, spread eagled and castrated / debowelled by the thousands? !!

You seem to be walking around with rosy-coloured glasses in your depiction of this man as being some kind of a PeaceNik - almost like you're making it up as you go along.

READ THE TEXT !!!!!!

Are you SERIOUSLY talking about the same heavily armed Daviddic pretender aka R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (BCE 12 to 36 CE, Greek: Iesous) who was ARRESTED and SENTENCED by the Roman authorities for ARMED SEDITION in 36 CE against Rome during the 100th Anniversary of the Roman Invasion of Palestine under Pompey(BCE 63),

Or do you imagine for one minute that people who ride into Jerusalem on the white she-ass of Solomon do it for weekend kicks and giggles?

(see Zechariah 9:9 -

Rejoice, Jerusalem and Shout for Joy, O Zion !
For lo, your KING comes to you
howbeit lowly riding on a donkey,
even an ass, the foal of a donkey !

Yet he is the Righteous One, filled with Salvation for Israel !
It is he whose kingdom shall stretch from sea to sea,
even from the great River to the ends o the Land of Israel !

Yea, he SHALL DICTATE TERMS OF PEACE TO THE GENTILES
in the day when the battle bow is halted from Jerusalem,
and the chariot is stopped in Ephraim !

You know, that same Executied Daviddic Pretender (‘son of David, have mercy upon me !”) one who ran around saying things like:

The Times [of the Amorites] are fulfilled ! (see Gen 15:16)
Repent, and Believe the Good News of the Kingdom !

(in other words, The 100-year Roman Occupation (BCE 63 -36 CE) of Palestine is Over – the Davidds are coming back - in force !)

You know the same man that ARMED HIS DISCIPLES WITH SWORDS on the hill the night of his arrest by the temple police, when the slave of the High Priest’s ear went (shall we say) 'missing' ?

(I think ‘cut clean off’ is a better way of putting it – or do you think the swords that cut off that slave’s ear came from a butter knife left over from the last supper?)

See the mangled (heavily edited) mauled Greek of Luke 22:35-37

And he said to his discipoles

When I sent you two by two [to announce the kingdom]
without purse, or beggars bag, or sandals --
did any of you lack for anything?

And they said, No Rabbi.

Then said he unto them, But now, let he who has a purse take it with him: likewise if any of you have a beggars bag let him use it
even to buy himself a sword:

And anyone of you that does not have any money tonight,
let him sell his outer tunic (on a cold night too !)
and go out and buy a sword immediately !

[which was followed by some lame excuse of a fulfillment prophecy that had nothing to do with anything, something about being buried with evil rich men - to cover up the embarasment of the saying, no doubt !]


Or are you completely IGNORING ALL THE OTHER warrior language and phrases placed into this armed seditionist's mouth in the 4 canonical Greek Gospels:

(quoted in ‘the gospel according Luke’ (whoever he was) chapter 4:18-19 in a mangled politically cut down (adapted) by the writer (whoever he was) of a text taken from the LXX and Targum in Greek from TritoIsaiah 61:1-2

And he opened the scroll and began to read from it saying

The Spirit of YHWH has rested upon me,
For I have been Annointed to preach the Good News to the Ebionim
To raise the downtrodden,
To preach the release of the Prisoners
And to set free those that have been tortured
To give sight to the blind ones
And to Announce the DAY OF VENGEANCE of our clan-god (a phrase which is quoted more than once in the War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls 1 QM)
and to Proclaim the Acceptable year of YHWH !

Behold this Scripture has its fulfillment this day !

(also see other words placed into this man’s 'Greek speaking' mouth, e.g.

Luke 14:24 :

These be the Days of Vengeance of our Clan God !)

or even that odd Midrash on the Aramaic targum of Micah 7:6

And he said tot them:

Do you THINK for ONE MOMENT that the Bar-Enasha (‘Son of Man’, see Aram. Dan 7:13) was sent to bring Peace upon the Land [of Yisro’el]?

By no means !

The Bar Enasha ('son of man') was sent NOT to bring Peace,
BUT RATHER TO BRING A SWORD !
He was NOT sent to bring HARMONY
BUT RATHER TO CAUSE DIVISION !

To set a man against his son,
and brother against his brother,
daughter against her mother
and to put a son in law against his mother in law !

So that a man’s enemies be they of his own house !

Or who ARE you talking about when you claim that your Greek speaking Iesous was a man of peace?

Can’t you even READ simple Koine Greek -?

Or are you merely relying on some vague recollection from your heavilly edited childhood sunday school lessons ?

You might want to read the text of the canonical greek gospels - VERY VERY closely - you might be surprised what nasties you find in them !



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


"But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!

David himself calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his Son?"

" 'Shall we rejoice in the scepter of my son Judah ?

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing

See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh



posted on May, 6 2010 @ 04:19 PM
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Hi no King

What were all your mis-translated garbled quotes from the Koine Greek Mess from the NT supposed to say, exactly ?

Can you even read Koine Greek? You seem a tad confused by my post apparently....to say the least.

If you wish to make a point, then pls make it. But don't grab odd snatches of mis-translated English and expect to be part of this discussion.

Now if you wanted to get into a debate over why this R. Yehoshua seditionist armed his disciples with swords on the hill which in case you did NOT know happened 'during THE Insurrection' (see the 2nd canonical Greek Gospel 'according to Mark' whoever he was - chapter 15:7), then maybe we can talk.

Otherwise you are wasting your time...and mine.



posted on May, 7 2010 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by UruFist
 


Yes, I said that. And I apologize for acting like an idiot. This thread was not meant to go out of control. I was wanting to point out that I don't find Jesus as the messiah promised to the Jews. And maybe, if he was real, that it's possible he was very different then what we think of him now.


I can answer that question. After looking at that problem I figured it out. Jesus Christ or a reasonable approximation of him 2000 years ago was supposed to show up and do what was promised. But according to the story Herod did a very stupid act. He killed John the Baptist. And triggered off a nasty chain of events that leads up to the present.


According to the book of Malachi the apocalypse of 2000 years ago was supposed to have 2 messiahs. One of them was Elijah the prophet. There was things predicted he was to do that wasn't done because of his premature death. And because of that Herod triggered the curse of Malachi. See the last couple of verses of Chap 4.

The quick details on it is this. It's a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. You want the details of it read Leviticus 26 and the book of Hosea.

And remember the days of Hosea 6-2 are thousand year periods of time as they are in the presence of God.

And if you look at the history of the last 2000 years it's quite apparent the Jews have been serving the curse. And that's why he doesn't return until the days of Gentiles have played out in Luke 21. They must end first.



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 





You might want to read the text of the canonical greek gospels - VERY VERY closely - you might be surprised what nasties you find in them !


Thanks, but there is enough "nasty" to go around right here. And yes I still say no matter what passages you produce to refute it, this was a man of peace.


To set a man against his son, and brother against his brother, daughter against her mother

This is just to say if your father is a thieving whore monger, you may choose a different path. Why go along with wickedness just because it's how your parents did it? My mother is a lying, bigot. Not only ought I not be like her, I ought not accept it in her. To be righteous, I will go against even my mother.
He was usurping the customary tenants and traditions. Giving individuals an excuse to divert from established habit to reach and discover God for themselves. Not providing much grounds for doing so other than, His Father commands it. This is El.

Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
Vengeance when spoke of by a peaceful people can also be a righteous recovery and reinstatement.

Jesus does not recommend WE take any violent action against our fellow man - ever.
Jesus assures us, God His Father will do this REVENGE THING for us.
All Jesus requests is to PREACH and persuade the wicked (cruel violent, wrong minded people) of their own free will to WANT to be good people. Why? Because they are creations of the Lord (his father) who commands it.
Jesus, though also Lord - was only a son, an emissary following orders....from EL above even Him.

People who resort to war for peace are misled, continually doing wrong for rights sake.
This is saying we NEED DDT to kill the mosquitoes.
Like saying we NEED nuclear power to give us energy.

Conservative schools of thought say we do.
They are not religious.
Religion means it, when it says, do not kill. Eradication is the easiest and simplest way to rid oneself of enemies.
But oddly enough, we are not to resort to this. We (humans) are urged and encouraged to find another way. Talk, reasoning and working with, toward and finding solutions.
Insisting that peace be kept and kindness for strangers is a rule.
A very odd rule but it is a tenant of the faith.
Some Christians don't have genuine FAITH in the ultimate, everlasting protection of God, have not tested it... so they kill things and others out of fear and ignorance.

Even when commanded to do so we are too impatient to "give peace a chance" and too lazy to find those other/better answers....I think at our peril and great waste of time.





[edit on 8-5-2010 by rusethorcain]



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 12:43 AM
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There's no satan, you silly humans have been fooled. You think life is black and white, good or evil. According to your religious standards you must be on the white side, anything that tends to go to the black side is wrong, where is the equilibrium? You've poisoned this earth, you must pay for your deeds. Jesus was a person, he was not born from a virgin, he did not turn water into wine, he did not walk on water. Those are only metaphors, but your deluded minds translate those stories as real facts. You miss the point completely, and use the scriptures as weapons of hatred, just the way muslims use their quran as means of oppression. Your idea of God is so twisted I'm surprised he doesn't hate you...



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 01:42 AM
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I never really understood why we feel we needed someone to tell us to be kind to each other, not to kill each other, help our fellow man....aren't these things that any normal person would know? We all know right from wrong, do we really need to confess our wrongdoings every Sunday so the responsibility for such actions can be prayed away instead of being dealt with in a productive manner. Do we really need so many versions of a story spawning the same message being adopted by extremist religions around the world spreading hate and violence for the past few thousand years? We have more common sense than we give ourselves credit for. I certainly am no blind sheep following a false idol. Christians pray to a cross and to the virgin Mary, didn't God wan them to only worship him?. I could never understand the hypocrisy in religion, that story (and yes I have read it) is full of violence and murder and hate yet it preaches the opposite. I have read the theory of the constellations relating to the lfe of Jesus (the sun of God)...far more palatable than the magical story written in the bible. I am someone who believes in facts and evidence and if the voice of Jesus or God were to speak to me I would get myself to a psychiatrist quick smart, this mass delusion has to end somewhere, I just wish more people would educate themselves with current information rather then an archaic, poorly written collection of tales.



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by Sigismundus
Hi no King

The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king.

He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.

lovers of themselves...money

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast

They are all defying Caesar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus."

What were all your mis-translated garbled quotes from the Koine Greek Mess from the NT supposed to say, exactly ?

not in words taught us by human wisdom

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Can you even read Koine Greek? You seem a tad confused by my post apparently....to say the least.

Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?

they will speak in new tongues;

There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.

Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

yee haa

If you wish to make a point, then pls make it. But don't grab odd snatches of mis-translated English and expect to be part of this discussion.

For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule ; a little here, a little there."

These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if you wanted to get into a debate over why this R. Yehoshua seditionist armed his disciples with swords on the hill which in case you did NOT know happened 'during THE Insurrection' (see the 2nd canonical Greek Gospel 'according to Mark' whoever he was - chapter 15:7), then maybe we can talk.

You have never heard his voice nor seen his form

But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit

For we are not unaware of his schemes.

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords

Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword

Otherwise you are wasting your time...and mine.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."




posted on May, 8 2010 @ 03:05 AM
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Originally posted by albatross
There's no satan, you silly humans have been fooled. You think life is black and white, good or evil. According to your religious standards you must be on the white side, anything that tends to go to the black side is wrong, where is the equilibrium? You've poisoned this earth, you must pay for your deeds. Jesus was a person, he was not born from a virgin, he did not turn water into wine, he did not walk on water. Those are only metaphors, but your deluded minds translate those stories as real facts. You miss the point completely, and use the scriptures as weapons of hatred, just the way muslims use their quran as means of oppression. Your idea of God is so twisted I'm surprised he doesn't hate you...


Ah... so you believe.



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


Jesus preaches love, forgiveness and light.

Satan preaches hate, sin and darkness.

So, no, they are opposites.



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 03:29 AM
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Gday,


Originally posted by mademyself
The Bible has never been "changed".


The bible has been changed a great deal, here are some examples :


Mark 16:9-20
The Resurrection Appearances

Most of the earliest witnesses have G.Mark ending at 16:8 - with the empty tomb scene, but no resurrection appearances etc.
Intriguingly, an empty tomb scene was not unknown in other 1st century dramatic writings - e.g. Chariton's novel Chareas and Callirhoe included an empty tomb scene as the climax.

G.Mark ends at 16:8 in the very important early MSS Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, and also in others such as : Latin Codex Bobiensis, the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, and the two oldest Georgian translations and many Armenian manuscripts.

In later versions however, there are several DIFFERENT endings to G.Mark after 16:8 -
* the longer ending (16:9-20 in many Bibles)
* the shorter ending (also found in some study bibles)
* another minor variant of a few verses

In other words -
there are at least FOUR different ways that G.Mark ends.

(Many modern Bibles now indicate this with brackets or a marginal note - go check yours.)

Origen and Clement of Alexandria (early 3rd C.) and Victor of Antioch quote and discuss G.Mark WITHOUT mentioning the appendix. Eusebius (early 4th C.) mentions that most MSS do not have the appendix. Jerome also specifically notes the passage can not be found in most Greek MSS of his time (4th C.) This means Eusebius and Jerome KNEW of the appendix, but noted that it was NOT part of the Bible at that time.

Thus, this is clear and present evidence that the post-resurrection stories were NOT original, but added later, around the 4th-5th century or so.

This helps to explain why the stories in G.Luke and G.Matthew and G.John are so wildly different - they did not have G.Mark to follow, so each made-up a different story. (Scholars agree G.Luke and G.Matt were largely copied from G.Mark.)

The events on Easter Sunday, as described in the four Gospels can NOT be reconciled. It is NOT possible to include all the events from all four Gospels in a coherent sequence - go try it. Not one person has ever succeeded.


Luke 3:22
The words of God at the Baptism

Early MSS and quotes have the same as the Psalm :
"...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou are my son, this day have I begotten thee"

But later versions have changed it to :
"...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved son; in thee I am well pleased"

Here we see Christian scribes have CHANGED the very words of God, or the alleged words of God. And we know the reason - it supports the view called Adoptionism - later called a heresy.

In other words, Christian writers had no compunction about changing the supposed words of God himself, at a crucial time in the story. Clearly this does not represent anything real or historical.



1 John 5:7
The Trinity

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

This passage is not found in ANY early Greek MSS, and was therefore not included in the original Textus Receptus of Erasmus in the 16th Century.
Erasmus said "I will not include the Comma unless I see a Greek MSS which includes it".
Sure enough, a newly written Greek MSS suddenly "appeared" with this passage, so Erasmus ADDED it to the 2nd edition - how dishonest and errant can you get !


Matthew 6:13
The Lord's Prayer

Early and important MSS (Aleph, B, D, Z, 205, 547) as well as some fathers (Tertullian, Origen, and Cyprian) have :
"And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil"

Other MSS have :
"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen"

And a few MSS have another version :
"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the father, the son, and the holy spirit for ever. Amen"

A few MSS exclude the words "the power" or "the glory" or "the kingdom".

The Lord's Prayer is one of the more variant parts of the NT.

Now,
this prayer was supposedly taught by Jesus himself.
But
early Christians could not agree what the prayer said !



Mark 1:1
Jesus Christ [Son of God]

Early MSS do not have "son of God".


John 9:35
Son of Man/God

Early MSS have :
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, Do you believe in the Son of man?"

Later versions have :
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?"



Acts 8:37
JC is the Son of God

"And Phillip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"

This passage is missing from all the early MSS.

In other words, the MSS show a consistent pattern of "Son of Man" being changed into "Son of God".




Mark 1:2
As written in [Isaiah]

The early MSS have :
"As it is written in Isaiah the prophet..."

But most later versions have :
"As it is written in the prophets..."

Probably because the quote is NOT really from Isaiah (its composited from Isaiah, Malachai, and Exodus) - the eariest MSS were wrong, so later versions fixed this error by using just "prophets".

Here we see later scribes fixing up an earlier mistake.
Clear and present proof of errancy.



Colossians 1:14
Redemption by blood


All early MSS have the shorter :
"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins"

But later copies have added "through his blood" :
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"

This is an important proof-text for the doctrine of redemption by Chist's blood - but its a later addition.



So what does this show ?

1. The NT was often changed during its history.

2. The changes included some of the most important parts of Christian doctrine :
* the resurrection
* the alleged words of GOD at the Jordan!
* the Lord's Prayer
* the Trinity
etc.

3. The reason the NT was changed was often arguments over doctrine - i.e. different Christian sects fiddled the books to support their sect.




Kapyong



posted on May, 8 2010 @ 03:35 AM
link   
Gday,


Originally posted by kingofmd
copy of a translation etc. We still have the Greek manuscripts of the new testament that were written less than 50 years after the events,


Nonsense.
There are NO manuscripts dating to 1st century.
NONE.

And, we have only 1 or 2 fragments from 2nd century.

But most are 3rd century and later.


K.



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