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Alleged NASA -Affiliated Astronomer Deciphers 'Intelligence' Signal From Nearby Stars

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posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by Bunken Drum
 


Indeed, the attempted association with Dan Brown strikes as odd. Brown was writing fiction, which several people tried to turn into fact...

Ah. I've answered my own question, haven't I?




posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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I think I am right when I say that you lot actually just fancies transexual and gay men. (why would you otherwise be so passionate about sex changes and trying to prove so desperately that other people are???)

Guess the saying is True " You got to be one to know one" Aint that so!?


So I am posting you lot something to lick your lips by on!


Dont have too many fantasies now, you hear?


www.youtube.com...





posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Bunken Drum

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by A boy in a dress
 


Yes, you get to pick the color of the suit - as long as it's drab. The sunglasses, however, are issue, and therefore non-negotiable.

Also, you need to practice being stone-faced, for effect.
No way! In Marty's Mworld, BIAD's an MIB, but that doesn't contradict being unemployed & bored, b/c there's no such thing as unemployment. Actually, its all an alphabet soup agency run plan to make people think they may end up unemployed, so that they'll work their socks off for a pittance. However, actually, they are all secret agents dedicated to tirelessly, feverishly even, preventing us from seeing the light of Onanism... Oops I meant Waynekerism... Damn! Sorry: Oneism.
A suit would be far too conspicuous. For BIADs special assignment, the B of MIB refers strictly to lingerie & its the wet lipped pout thats required!


Ah yes... I can see how that would distract some from Oneism... but would it not drive others into the arms of Onanism? Some could get the two confused... and Wayne seems to be trying to build his empire on confusion!

That sort of distraction could aid Wayne in the quest for confusion, rather than hinder him...



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by A boy in a dress

Is there any evidence that these two met? I don't know... it's probably a dead-end and
I'm maybe just looking for a poetic beat to all this, but I know that some rivers run deep
as well as fast.
Maybe Nenothtu, dcmb1490 or RICH has some thoughts on this?


I believe that they probably WERE acquainted in youth, but have no evidence of that whatsoever, beyond the merely circumstantial, so I can't make that claim and state it as fact. It's more of a "gut feeling", really. I can tell you that the South African Herschel tribe of which Wayne is a member is acquainted with a South African Van Greunen tribe, but I don't know if it's THE Van Greunen family in question, and I have no idea how common the names may be there. It could be an entirely unrelated family, and so the evidence is purely circumstantial.

Like I said, it's just a "gut feeling".



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by moaningmartel
I think I am right when I say that you lot actually just fancies transexual and gay men. (why would you otherwise be so passionate about sex changes and trying to prove so desperately that other people are???)

Guess the saying is True " You got to be one to know one" Aint that so!?


So I am posting you lot something to lick your lips by on!


Dont have too many fantasies now, you hear?


www.youtube.com...




Hello moaningmartel and thank you for responding to our theories regarding
whether James and Wayne ever met.
I haven't and won't click your Youtube offering, your assumption of what we
are discussing has no bearing and I personally care not of what James/Judy's
sexuality is... it's the hoax that I'm focused on.

Your gutteral insults are a little weak on someone who jokes at being a man/girl
in this open forum, so thanks... but no thanks.

Edit: The desperation you mention... you're showing your hand!!
edit on 29-10-2010 by A boy in a dress because: Left Photo Album in Edit Room.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 04:56 PM
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Glad to see you'r still with us, "Rob"... Oops, I mean "moaningmartel"


Originally posted by moaningmartel
I think I am right when I say that you lot actually just fancies transexual and gay men. (why would you otherwise be so passionate about sex changes and trying to prove so desperately that other people are???)


"Trying desperately to prove"? You must not have gotten the memo - it's already been proven, some time back. The real question is the WHY of it. Personally, I don't think James was "gay" - especially not at the beginning of his new life as a her. The accusations of "lesbianism" are what one would expect from a "straight" male who for some OTHER reason had a sex-change operation. He was still attracted to women, which created problems for him/her in the new role.

Subsequent events indicate that he may have dealt with that problem by "becoming" bisexual - at least the end results were consistent with that sort of reassignment.

In any event, James/Judy's sexual orientation isn't the issue here. The issue is WHY he took such a drastic step as gender-reassignment surgery, in spite of, and in contravention to, his apparent sexual orientation. There have to be some serious hounds nipping at one's heels to push him into such a drastic measure simply to create a new identity. I speculate that those hounds wee likely legal in nature, more than sexual.

Now, your OWN morbid fascination with sexual orientation matters, both here and at dcmb1490's blog, might bear a bit closer scrutiny. You should probably see to that. I'm not going to do it for you, you have to take the initiative on your own.

The first step in getting help is to admit that you have a problem... I can't say that I care one way or another about your proclivities, but the problem appears to lie in your MORBID FASCINATION with such issues.

Seek professional help. You'll be glad you did.



Guess the saying is True " You got to be one to know one" Aint that so!?

So I am posting you lot something to lick your lips by on!

Dont have too many fantasies now, you hear?

www.youtube.com...



See, I really don't even have to comment on this last any further. It's just proof of my case.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by moaningmartel
 

I am curious -MM, have you ever pondered any of the other topics or threads?
You came here to seek out evidence of something or to announce a revelation
that may benefit somebody in one of the many topics here at ATS.
We all stumbled in and looked around at the facets of the site.

So why just hurl insults on this one thread? Why is that martel?
Could you maybe assist us in this journey to find out more about the UV signal hoax?
Is there something you know? something we've missed that has made us behave in
this 'negative' fashion?

We're not school-yard bullies who point and giggle, we only wish to understand
the logic that all this lays in front of us.
Maybe you could show us the way.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 

I agree with you Neno,
this moaningmartel character has issues regarding gender and seems to want
us to concentrate in that arena and not the James/Judy hoax.

To most here, whether Dr. Judy -the 'astrophysicst friend of Wayne Herschel'
is a male or female is irrelevent, what's bothering some here (well, me really!!)
is Judy's state of mind as she destroyed relationships, conned monies from
supposed loved ones and wrote fantastic stories to gullible internet readers.

Why would someone do that? What rage or hatred would make a person
turn on his own family and do those kind of things?

Do you have any constructive input regarding these issues -MM?


edit on 29-10-2010 by A boy in a dress because: Left handbag in Edit Room.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by A boy in a dress
reply to post by nenothtu
 

I agree with you Neno,
this moaningmartel character has issues regarding gender and seems to want
us to concentrate in that arena and not the James/Judy hoax.


I really ought to re-post quotes of mm's posts (as "Rob" there) from dcmb1490's blog here to illustrate the similarities and show just how far this morbid fascination extends, but I can't - not without heavily censoring expletives and innuendos to comply with T+Cs.

I'm having to wrestle with similar issues in the book - whether to include Judy's expletive and innuendo ridden rant in her e-mail to Nitromaria concerning her apparently torrid affair with Nitro's husband in all it's glory, or the redacted version which seems a bit lacking in impact. It's not a matter of Nitromaria taking exception to it's inclusion in full - she posted it in full here originally, before being urged to redact some of the more sanguine expressions - it's more a matter of how much I can include and still maintain a PG-13 rating, or whether I even WANT to preserve that rating, and thereby lessen impact.

Decisions, decisions. But I digress. Moaningmartel has some definite issues, the full extent of which have yet to be revealed here.



To most here, whether Dr. Judy -the 'astrophysicst friend of Wayne Herschel'
is a male or female is irrelevent, what's bothering some here (well, me really!!)
is Judy's state of mind as she destroyed relationships, conned monies from
supposed loved ones and wrote fantastic stories to gullible internet readers.


Exactly. The sex-change was only incidental to that main line of reasoning, peripheral, and serves only to show the lengths James/Judy was willing to go to in order to perpetuate the scams. Beyond that, who puts what where, when, and with whom else is of no concern to me at all, neither in the case of James/Judy nor anyone else. I can't even imagine caring enough to get into those details.



Why would someone do that? What rage or hatred would make a person
turn on his own family and do those kind of things?


One has to wonder at James/Judy's familial relationships, and their history. Not much know of her "Van Greunen" days in South Africa, except that it's curious that her family there has apparently disowned her. One has to wonder how much that situation has colored subsequent family relationships when James/Judy has attempted to get a family of his own established.

I have it on good authority that he was overly controlling as James. An inordinate need to control and micromanage family affairs usually harks back to childhood events and situations where the individual has little or no control as events spiralled out of hand, resulting in an inordinate need and resolve to maintain an iron control later in life - to prevent such situations from ever occurring again.

I really hate taking the Freudian road of "so how was your childhood?" because that line of reasoning is usually bunk, and serves only to make excuses, but I think in this case there may really be such a causality link.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by A boy in a dress
 


Hoi Amigo! Hold your horses chum!

Just who has been hurling insults here!!!???? From page one to the last you lot have done nothing else but hurl insults around about Wayne and Judy!


All your so called evidence is fake, made up, forgeries, slander and lies!


You trust criminals like Hesemann to supply you with forged documents and so called evidence???

You are humiliating Judy whom you dont even know first hand and of whom you only have third and fourth party made up information from!

You know what she has been mature and grown up enough not to even defend herself against your Fakery, Lies, Scams and Slander.... Wow! That speaks volumes cause I think she feels your rubbish is not worth the effort!


I think the game may be more fair if you reveal your tru names so that the world can also know who the idiots are thats hiding behind avatars and pseudo names and spreading all the BS and Blatant lies about her.

But thats why you are hiding behind your avatars and nick names, because you fear repercussion and that your bull might blow up in your faces!

It is not "normal" for any grown man to sit month in and month out every day to slander and defame a woman they know nothing about. Thats sexual discrimination and Stalking. Face it you lot have such an undying obsession for Judy, and I can understand why... cause she is a stunning beautifull woman who can have any man she wants ( and any woman too)

How does your wives or boyfriends feel about you lot doing this? I bet they dont even know what you are up to.... Right???? (of course Im right!)


So you lot need to get help fast, your mental states are worrysome.

History has shown that everyone who meant something to humanity or who had something really important to share with mankind has been persecuted, slandered, defamated, Lied about, tortured and crucified! Exactly what you are trying to do to Judy here!!!!!!!

I together with hundreds of thousands other people who know what your agenda really are, rather take the side of Wayne and SPECIALLY Judy. We would really rather trust them than you! We are not stupid, so dont try and play your BS on the public out there!
:lol :



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by moaningmartel
You are humiliating Judy whom you dont even know first hand and of whom you only have third and fourth party made up information from!
You know what she has been mature and grown up enough not to even defend herself against your Fakery, Lies, Scams and Slander.... Wow! That speaks volumes cause I think she feels your rubbish is not worth the effort!:
... cause she is a stunning beautifull woman who can have any man she wants ( and any woman too)

Hello moaningmartel,
You sound like you have first hand knowledge of Judy. Please inform us if so, we are still waiting on your contribution to the thread.


But thats why you are hiding behind your avatars and nick names, because you fear repercussion and that your bull might blow up in your faces!

Yes, that is correct. I admit my real name is not Netties Hermit.
How about you? Your mother named you moaningmartel?

Oh dear.


History has shown that everyone who meant something to humanity or who had something really important to share with mankind has been persecuted, slandered, defamated, Lied about, tortured and crucified! Exactly what you are trying to do to Judy here!!!!!!!

I have been reading this thread now for near six months and I never realised that the NASA Astronomer Judy Fältskog had such a gift to mankind - such a valuable contribution to our society.
Pray tell - what would that be?
I can't find it on google.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by Bunken Drum
 




I have no idea why anyone who wanted to be taken seriously would align themselves with Dan Brown, or anyone

else for that matter and as i am not a mind reader i cannot say why Wayne would..But i can offer my own

hypothisis on the subject.I think it is the FAME FACTOR.........He name drops (after all Dan Brown unlike

Wayne Herschel) IS a best selling author,Then there are the well known astrologers? (names with held) who

introduced Wayne to Judy!!!! Egyptologists (altough i fear some of them may be mere sock puppets?) and the

following being taken directly of his own site ""I have many astronomy connections but I will not use names as it

is unethical and a scandal and not in my best interests anyway."



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by moaningmartel
All your so called evidence is fake, made up, forgeries, slander and lies!



Whoa there, Nellie! That's a pretty serious accusation! You'd best be prepared to back that one up. I'm calling you out on it. Put up or shut up. Prove a forgery, show a slander or lie. Do it. I'm waiting.

I'm really tired of your evasive and cowardly attacks. If you've even a single ounce of guts, you'll quit dodging and get to the meat of the matter - providing the proof that I've been demanding of you for several pages now. You made the accusations, and KEEP making them, and have not provided a single shred of evidence. Hell, you ain't even shown the testicular fortitude to respond directly to ANY of my queries or comments to you. Why is that?

DO IT! Right now, or forevermore be it known just WHO is the real liar here!

Prove your case, or take your title.



You trust criminals like Hesemann to supply you with forged documents and so called evidence???


Another slanderous remark that I know damn well you won't have the courage of you convictions to back up. Put you cards on the table. Show your proof. I'm calling your hand.

You, "sir", are a gutless wonder. Unlike your cowardly self, I'm more than willing to provide the evidence to support that statement, but I don't even need to. You do it yourself, every time you fling out your baseless BS, and then run and hide when you're called out to provide your evidence.

YOU, on the other hand, provide MY evidence for me!



You are humiliating Judy whom you dont even know first hand and of whom you only have third and fourth party made up information from!


All Judy has to do to make it stop is make a public admission and apology for the hoaxes - and stop "humiliating" the rest of the world with her crazy BS. Join the human race, be a productive member - productive of something OTHER than hoaxes.

"Humiliate" her? Yeah, I suppose you could see it that way. It IS pretty humiliating to get caught in an outright lie, and have that put on display for the whole world to see, even as you furiously try to find ANY sort of excuse or explanation for it, other than just calling it what it is.

THAT sort of "humiliation" isn't going to stop until the lies, hoaxes within hoaxes, and outright BS stop. It's just that simple.



You know what she has been mature and grown up enough not to even defend herself against your Fakery, Lies, Scams and Slander.... Wow! That speaks volumes cause I think she feels your rubbish is not worth the effort!


I'm pretty sure you don't want me to post the material that refutes that - but if you really want me to, then by God I will! and if I need to do that, you'll be able to take it to the bank.

Try me.

Now it's your turn. Post your evidence of "fakery, lies, scams, and slander" on our part right here in front of God and every body, "Humiliate" me. Go on, have at it.

Show me the money.

I'll tell you what - to sweeten the pot, if you can prove such allegations, I promise right here and now, in public, to make a public apology and slink off into the shadows. What more could you ask for?



I think the game may be more fair if you reveal your tru names so that the world can also know who the idiots are thats hiding behind avatars and pseudo names and spreading all the BS and Blatant lies about her.

But thats why you are hiding behind your avatars and nick names, because you fear repercussion and that your bull might blow up in your faces!


You first. No, scratch that. You can find my ID the same way we had to find Judy's - by digging.



It is not "normal" for any grown man to sit month in and month out every day to slander and defame a woman they know nothing about. Thats sexual discrimination and Stalking.


Stalking? Sexual Discrimination? What sort of Law Dictionary are you using? I know it's neither Blacks nor Oran's. Maybe some obscure Hungarian law dictionary from the Iron Curtain days?

Be that as it may, those are legally-defined and legally punishable offenses. So are Slander and Defamation. You've made the charges, now make your case. Show the evidence.

You can't, because you LIE. Proof of that statement will be shown by you utter inability to back up your statements as being true.



Face it you lot have such an undying obsession for Judy, and I can understand why... cause she is a stunning beautifull woman who can have any man she wants ( and any woman too)


Careful there, Judy. You may tip your hand and expose your identity. Seems to me you have a more than passing familiarity, and know things that could only be properly known from inside the same skin, eh? How else could you logically make those statements above, whether they are true or false?



How does your wives or boyfriends feel about you lot doing this? I bet they dont even know what you are up to.... Right???? (of course Im right!)


Can't speak for the others, but mine is pretty pissed off that I'm doing it all gratis, as a matter of principle. Says that don't pay the bills, but to my mind some things are just more important than jingling coin. I've got other projects to pay the bills. This one is a labor of love.



So you lot need to get help fast, your mental states are worrysome.


Logical basis for that assessment, please?



History has shown that everyone who meant something to humanity or who had something really important to share with mankind has been persecuted, slandered, defamated, Lied about, tortured and crucified! Exactly what you are trying to do to Judy here!!!!!!!


History also shows that a lot of low-lifes have gotten their due for trying to lead humanity astray. I suspect we may differ as to which category this fits in to, but at least I can present a case for my opinion. Would that you could say the same.



I together with hundreds of thousands other people who know what your agenda really are, rather take the side of Wayne and SPECIALLY Judy. We would really rather trust them than you! We are not stupid, so dont try and play your BS on the public out there!


"Hundreds of thousands"? really? I wasn't aware we were having that sort of impact... yet. Comforting to know. They wouldn't happen to be spread out "on all continents" as well, now would they?

You're welcome to take whatever side you wish. Ignorance isn't illegal. It's a real shame, though, that OUR side provides evidence to back out statements up, and YOUR side has nothing but unfounded rants. I bet there's a reason for that.

You've GOT nothing else.

"Play my BS on the public"? I assure you, you haven't seen ANYTHING yet! Oh yes, it's GOING out into the public. I'll allow THEM to decide what's BS and what isn't, which "side" has merit to it's argument and which has nothing but ranting and raving.

Oh, yeah, it's coming!



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by moaningmartel
Again I Rest my case!

Again My point CLEARLY is Proven!


How many times are you going to "rest" your case? Why won't it stay rested?
I think the problem is that its been rested so often that, due to lack of exercise, its become ill.
Get it to the intellectual gymnasium, Marty! It needs a work out. Now, of course, the internet gym is used by people who also go in for full contact competition, so you will get your head kicked in occasionally, but, if you pay attention to how they do it, you'll learn, with practice, how to do it to others. Eventually, you'll be a 'hardcase' &, when you rest, it will be b/c you have actually prevailed or simply had to admit that you cannot.
This latter can be a painful realisation, still, it does wonders for the psyche in telling us that we are probably just wrong & thus ought to re-evaluate our position.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 09:07 PM
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The following are snippets from one of Waynes sites appoligies for starting in the middle but it is sooo long winded, and booooring (YAWN YAWN ) But i think this little bit will be appreciated !!!!!!!!!!!



And the one and only historical Hebrew Solomon key pictogram puzzle . Wayne Herschel sent the material to Dan Brown to ensure the valuable material would get the exposure such important information warrented. Waynes only condition at that time was that he be acknowledged with a reference. For reasons only known to Dan Brown and probabaly his publishers the offer was ignored............(This must have realy p.....him off)


Then Wayne goes on to review Dan Browns book........." The book is full of pictograms ciphers........but not historical accounts,theese puzzles are pretty much like those one finds in puzzle books (POT -KETTLE- BLACK comes to mind??) Then it continues;-


In essence Wayne's findings are a little more than just theory when a whole string of linked mysteries across the globe all venerate the same star template of the lost symbol ..........You are about to see that the key of Solomon is the same key of Saint Peter and it is the same key of Hiram and key of Enoch. Not only that, the secret seems to explain conclusively the Bethlehem Star of Christ...............the Star of Hiram Abif.......the blazing of the Free Masons ............The Star of David............and more importantly also the Star of "Wain"



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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Cont post




(curious yes but not a miss spelling)

"Wain"the name King Solomon's people called their Star................



Now out of all this came something interesting the star HIRAM ABIF rang a bell in my memory and i revisited the Amazon site that Waynes book was being touted on and if you remember an earlier post of mine when i related the reviews on his book i mentioned a review which was such a glowing review and said the book was worth its weight in gold.........................well the name of the reviewer who had only ever reviewed the one book was.............................................wait for it HIRAM ABIF would you believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by eletheia
 


I believe that "Hiram Abif" was the first legendary Mason. Curious that one of Wayne's sock puppets would take that name, isn't it?

"Hiram" can also be seen here defending Wayne's "work", where a thorough debunking was had.

I'm in a bit of a black mood today, not feeling particularly charitable, and I may just go ahead and let one of the cats out of the bag, and post a THOROUGH and more or less original (it's only appeared at dcmb1490's blog before - I wrote it just before the blog got graunched, so it's nowhere to be found on the internet now) debunking of one of his alleged "star maps".

If I do, you will see for yourselves that his "star maps" are made up out of whole cloth. There is absolutely nothing to them, they aren't even MAPS, much less STAR MAPS.

His entire "theory" is built upon NOTHING more than out right lies - horrendous misinterpretations of things that "are not" (i.e. do not even exist in the form he claims) to begin with.

I think I'll take some more aspirin and drink a little more coffee before I take the final decision on that.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by moaningmartel
 

Just who has been hurling insults here!!!???? From page one to the last you lot have
done nothing else but hurl insults around about Wayne and Judy!


No, if you check Page One, you won't find me on it and I believe my first posting
on this subject reads thus:
I'm just glad she's okay and ready to face the world again. I, for one, am packed
and ready to find out the end of this thread... it's very exciting!
As a prank, I've even put my sunglasses on. 'Go Judy!'
-Page 22.

Of course, I realise you're flicking insults at all here... none of the posters on
this page actually contributed on Page One..., but precise information was never
your forte, heh James?

I think the game may be more fair if you reveal your tru names so that the world
can also know who the idiots are thats hiding behind avatars and pseudo names
and spreading all the BS and Blatant lies about her.


But then everyone would know where I lived and... oh, very cunning James...
I nearly fell for that. It's a good job you didn't shout your shoe laces are untied.

It is not "normal" for any grown man to sit month in and month out every day
to slander and defame a woman they know nothing about.
Thats sexual discrimination and Stalking. Face it you lot have such an undying
obsession for Judy, and I can understand why... cause she is a stunning
beautifull woman who can have any man she wants ( and any woman too)


You can't leave that one alone can you? I think you need to shout that everyday,
I think you need to tell yourself that you are attractive, you are wanted... someone
rejected you and it hurts doesn't it?
Please keep your responses decent James.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 10:48 PM
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Much of this back and forth between the forces of Light and the, apparent, forces of Dark revolves around what Wayne Herschel euphemistically calls his “work”, which I maintain is a hoax. In this post, I intend to examine in some detail just one small aspect of this “work”, but one with which I am intimately familiar. Should Mr. Herschel come and care to debate my exposure of this particular facet of his hoax, I stand ready to defend my premise.

Let’s just see if he can say the same.

The particular aspect of Mr. Herschel's hoax that I’m going to examine may be found here:

Wayne's "Cherokee" Star Map

This is the actual inscription that Wayne calls a "star map", erroneously. This is a copy of the actual original, NOT Wayne's "reinterpreted" (and re-drawn!) version:



To see Wayne's version, go to the web page linked above.

On his page, right in the heading, Wayne uses the word “Cherokee”, I presume to grab attention. Should you go there, please read the page carefully. I’ve of course archived a copy of it, because Wayne has a disconcerting habit of deleting or changing the various aspects of his charlatanry whenever they come under too close scrutiny. As the page stood when this was originally written, you could find nowhere on it any other reference to “Cherokees”. So why this title?

Nowadays, among the New Agers, the Cherokee tribe has developed a name for all things mystical, use of crystals, all the standard new agey stuff. In the old days, even the Cherokee stood in awe of the wizardry of my own tribe, the Shawnee (who are kinsmen of the Lenape – of them more later), but in recent times we have come to be known as a warrior tribe, because of the border warfare attendant upon the settling of the Ohio territory. The mystical aspects of the Shawnee have been all but eclipsed in modern times. For confirmation of this, one has but to research the Cherokee story of the Uktena, and find who it was that vanquished this beast, when the Cherokee could not. The Cherokee will tell you themselves. They are an honest people. Would that Wayne was so.

So Wayne uses the name of the Cherokee tribe to legitimize his “work” among new Agers, who are familiar with the modern conception of Cherokee spiritualism. Unfortunately, there is nothing more on the page to confirm any sort of link with the Cherokee. It’s just an attention grabber, and then he drops it altogether.

Let’s take a closer look at the map in question. First, there’s nothing “Cherokee” about it. It’s Lenape, or “Delaware”, and comes from the Muskingum River, Ohio. Wayne says it was produced by “the Muskingum tribe”, but that is a grievous error. There is no such tribe.

Furthermore, Mr. Herschel states that “over generations it’s meaning has been confused with the military history of the time and is thought by one of their descendants who have referenced it on the internet incorrectly as a military map.” Who do you suppose would know the map better – the Lenape who produced it, or a South African armchair researcher who pronounces it, from the comfort of his computer chair, to have a “confused meaning” and to have been “incorrectly referenced”? All that, and he doesn’t even know which tribe produced it! That would be akin to pronouncing oneself able to read Sanskrit, because he is fluent in Gaelic, and then telling a native Sanskrit speaker that he’s reading his own writing all wrong!

It was actually produced by Wingenund, a Lenape warrior, to recount his part in Pontiac’s War, a western component of the French and Indian War. Wingenund knew what he was writing far better than Mr. Herschel, and so did Wingenund’s friend, White Eyes.

Because of my background, I have a passing familiarity with the pictographs of the eastern Algoquian tribes, but even at that I can’t presume to tell a Lenape that he’s reading his own writing all wrong. I can pull a general meaning out of an inscription, but the specific interpretation is up to the author of it. With that in mind, let’s proceed to analyze Wayne’s peculiar “interpretation” as compared against the actual inscription.

First, he claims that this “map” shows Orion on it somewhere. That is absolutely false. Orion is nowhere to be found on it. Nowhere.

Top right symbol: Wayne calls it a “sun with a face”. Hooray. he got it right.

Top left symbol: A turtle. Wayne says it’s “the cosmic turtle as in the eastern culture”. WRONG. There is no “cosmic turtle in the Eastern culture”. There are 3 possibilities for this symbol – 1-”Turtle Island”, the name for the Earth, and more specifically North America; 2- the turtle totem; and 3 -the Lenape tribe, of whom the turtle was symbolic. Of those three, and knowing it was produced by a Lenape, the most likely meaning is “of the Lenape”, not any sort of non-existent “cosmic turtle”.

Wayne mentions a “sacred cross”, but there is no such thing to be found on the inscription. Indians in that culture area had a couple of symbols equating to a “sacred cross”, but none are here. One was a swastika symbol, and one was a circle bisected horizontally and vertically to produce 4 quarters, and was representative of the Earth. Neither of those is present. There was no “sacred cross” in the sense of a Christian cross in that culture area.

I’m not real clear, from the page, which symbol Wayne claims is a “sacred cross”. If he’s referring to the symbol just above the label, at the top center of the picture, that is the “totem” symbol for Wingenund, a Lenape chief who was active during Pontiac’s War, in the years falling around 1760. The pictogram is the story of his battles at that time, NOT any sort of “star map”.

If instead Wayne means the figure to the right of his “sacred cross” label, that is the English fort at Detroit, complete with square corner bastions. Nope, THAT’S not a “sacred cross” either.

What Wayne labels as “the ancestor’s star” is a ground plan of Fort Pitt (at what is now Pittsburg, PA), at the confluence of the two rivers which join there to form the Ohio River, the Monongahela and the Alleghany.

What Mr. Herschel labels as “Orion’s belt” is the representation of prisoners and scalps taken, and also indicates types of scalps taken. Orion’s belt would in no manner be represented by anthropomorphic figures, and would in any case have the main parts of Orion represented, not just his belt. The anthropomorphic figures represent people, with enemy killed (and scalped) represented by headless bodies, and prisoners denoted by bodies complete with heads. It’s amusing, in a twisted sort of way, that Wayne removed the heads of the prisoners in his interpretation, thus converting them ALL to dead enemies. It’s not that way in the original.

What Wayne calls a “mound of dirt” and shades in red in his interpretation is a trading town that grew up next to Ft. Pitt, the seed of the modern Pittsburg.

The series of hashmarks that Wayne colors blue and calls “the Milky Way” is in reality marks to denote warpaths that the author (Wingenund) had participated in. The concept is similar to the stripes on the forearms of modern military uniforms indicating length of service.

The four characters which Wayne labels as “the Pleiades” bear no resemblance to the Pleiades at all! The figures are linear, not clustered, much less clustered in any resemblance to the Pleiades! There are 4 of them, whereas there are 6 or 7 of the Pleiades visible to the naked eye (depending on visual acuity). The figures actually represent 3 enemies killed, and one prisoner taken, on Wingenund’s last 4 expeditions shown in the inscription.

As an aside, you’ll notice that all of the figures on the left line up with the hashmarks on the right, indicating which expedition a given scalp or prisoner was taken on.

No, this is no “starmap” or indeed a “map” of any sort, Cherokee, Lenape, or otherwise. It is a battle record, a record of Wingenund’s honors collected in Pontiac’s War.

This is not the “pronouncement of academicians”, which the adherents of Wayneism so love to deride, as if they are somehow superior to all that. No, this is the meaning according to the word of Wingenund himself, the author of the original inscription. Who would know better what is represented? Wayne, or THE MAN WHO MADE IT?

For Shame, Wayne! Stealing the culture of another, and attempting to force it into your fantasies, all to make a buck! If you’ve done this to Wingenund, I have to wonder what the real story is behind all your other alleged “starmaps” in this hoax. One thing is sure to me: if you are this wrong, in this one instance, I’d be inclined to disbelieve ALL of the others in your fantasy series.

I grew up here. I am steeped in the culture you are maligning. I don’t care WHICH “alien” told you these things, he’s a liar and a thief – of the cultures of others.

IF you think you can challenge this, my dissent of your “work” I’d welcome the opportunity to engage you on it. If you’ve got the balls, bring it on.

I’m ready.



posted on Oct, 30 2010 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by moaningmartel
 
I'm going to give an example of combined intuition, emotion & logic, before Sgt. Utterbastard's platoon open fire. Take it as preliminary terms from the forces of the ASRBD. You may find it easier to surrender to us than to be blasted to mincemeat by the forces of the Tsar of all the Nenothtuas.
My ex g/f is a highschool teacher. She has 2 degrees in her subject from 1 of the world's most prestigious universities, so had to work her arse off to get them. She also simultaneously did some internships, which to me sounded pretty soul destroying (I've been quite good to my interns I think, but, when I say that word beginning with "sh", if they dont ask where the shovel is, they'd best ask where the door is).
After uni, being a woman, she had to start near the bottom of her field & soon realised that there was a glass ceiling, so went back to uni to get a BEd. I hope you can understand that she's really in no mood to stand for anything less than sincere effort from her pupils. As it happens, she recently changed schools & a major factor in that decision was that her previous school had relaxed its policy on "cut & paste" essays.
The problem is that kids can easily go to wikipedia & select any random text that vaguely relates to the subject & change some wording so they cant be accused of direct plagiarism. How can a teacher know if their output is their own thoughts or not? Simply b/c a cut & paste effort will have little to no content that demonstrates that the author has connected the dots. I've read a few for comedy value: trust me, its obvious!
Obviously, such kids do have an idea of their own, or they wouldn't be able to select their plagiarised material, its just that, through laziness or trying to sound better, their technique drownes out whatever they're trying to say.
A hypothesis that contains all the usual contents of a hoax, but with altered wording, is the epitome of fail.



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