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NEWS: First Gay Couple Marry in France

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posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:42 PM
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I have no problem with rights for people with alternative lifestyles. They are not interfering in my life. As for what the Bible says, many more wrongs have been done in God's name than any other. God says that "A wife should honor her husband." How long did man use this argument to subjugate women? Now we know it is different. Crusades, witchhunts all in the name of God. BTW, how about those lovely Christians that found a genuine workforce in Africa that they just couldn't do without? How the hell did they justify that with their "Creator?"




posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:43 PM
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Anything that predates Genisis? From that statement, I see your opinion is Christian biased.


Did you not read what I wrote, or decided to ignore it all together. The Hindu doctrine predates Christianity but a clear 2000 years, and have practiced marriage since. How hard is that comprehend ?

Who is Christianity to determine the fate of non-christian homosexuals, per sa, hindu, buddhist, sikhs ?

This will not open a whole new can of worms. Marriage between a boy and a man is just wrong, for the plain and simple reason that children have not devoloped the highly cognitive skills as mature consenting adults have. It is moraly wrong to marry a young boy/women who knows nothing of life and society. However two consenting adults are well aware of the ramnifications marriage may have on thier lives, and well aware that they have chosen to sacrifice themselves to the other.

Marriage predates the Bible plain and simple.

Deep



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:45 PM
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When you said Hinduism predates Christianity by 2000 years, were you just looking at New Testament writings? I don't know why so many people tend to ignore the Hebrew scriptures and simply refer to everything as Christianity. Roughly 2/3 of the Bible predates Jesus. ZD - your facts your logic


When was the Bible written that assumes the institution of marriage is between man and women only ?

Roughly 2/3 of the bible was also stolen from pagans cultures, whats your point?

Deep



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:47 PM
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ZD Go back and read my edit - end of page 1. Your facts and your logic are wrong. You call Genesis Christianity. Genesis predated Jesus by thousands of years. I think your characterization of that as Christian may be highly offensive to Jewish members of ATS. Yours seems to be the typical agenda response of bashing Christian doctrine.
Not cool or effective!



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep

When was the Bible written that assumes the institution of marriage is between man and women only ?

Roughly 2/3 of the bible was also stolen from pagans cultures, whats your point?


Deep,
All I can say is go back and read it. Where in the world did you get that stuff about stolen from pagan cultures? Those who believe, believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. If one doesn't believe that then I can see their support of gay "marriage". BTW, I do support gay unions and the availability of benefits and other secular benefits for gay couples. I just can't accept "marriage". It's an oxymoron.



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:54 PM
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It was written 1300 years before christ roughly. How again does this predate Hinduism and lay the foundations of marriage?

Deep

[edit on 6-6-2004 by ZeroDeep]



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 04:59 PM
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Deep,
You're way off the track of my original post which talked about what "rights" really are. I think at this point, I am done with this thread.
CS



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by CommonSense
Deep,
You're way off the track of my original post which talked about what "rights" really are. I think at this point, I am done with this thread.
CS


I wouldn't mind a response to my post at the top of this page before you go.



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:03 PM
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Yes a man and and a woman have a right to be married because it is consistent with the natural law - that established by the Creator. With regard to exactly what my questions were, please re-read my posts, they are quite straight (pardon the pun!) forward.

I think this is an issue where we will simply need to agree to disagree. But I am curious with regard to your answers on the issues of rights for other, shall we say, non-traditional lifestyles.



Natural? you mean written by man.

Im sorry, but Homophobia is a social and conventional construct, not natural. In the state of nature, anything goes, homosexuality being one.

The Romans and Greeks practiced homosexuality commonly. Plato believed homosexuality was the purest form of love, a more spiritual and intellectual relationship. In fact platonic relationship means just that, homosexual relationship.

Non traditional ......

Relative to whose culture ?

Deep



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:13 PM
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Ok Intrepid,
Yes, throughout history every religion has used in own beliefs to its own ends, not just Christianity. Seems to me if it were just Christian beliefs that were the source of tthe problem, the mideast would be at peace. Your quote about the subjugation of women is priceless! Because it's just that type of taking a verse out of context that results in using the Bible as a weapon against others. Your guilty of doing the same thing you purport to find wrong. I highly recommend you go on line and read that passage in full. I think you'll be surprised.

Now I have responded to your final query. Done.



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:20 PM
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the thing is, marriage is a religious ceremony, it was created with a religious purpose so really a civil union or marriage of gays is really moching religion and it shouldnt be recognised since the original purpose has now been twisted to be some physical symbol that is a selfish deed which has no spiritual purpose anymore, love is part of it but so is the spiritual part and homosexuality violates the spiritual part, also why do people who are atheist or angonist even care about a religious ceremony? why do they want to be part of one? marriage IS a religious institution and therefore the religion should control it, it shouldnt be a legal thing or something performed by the state, it shouldnt be a freedom issue or constitutional issue it should be a religious issue, such thing as civil union violates seperation of church and state since its the state performing a religious act, really its wrong for courts to involve themselves in this since its a violation of the churches right in the first place, gay marriage shouldnt happen because it violates the religion and its not the states business to allow or ban the practice because it doesnt control the church.

not saying its right or wrong but it is the churches right to not allow what they see as wrong.

also im saying civil unions or state performed marriage is wrong because its the state performing a religious act- only repeating that for those of you who think im saying this in a intolerant view.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by namehere]



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:28 PM
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Sometimes I don't know why I bother. What harm is there in letting gay people marry, civil or religious? How can that affect you in any way? And HOW is it mocking religion? Contrary to what you may think, Atheism and homosexuality aren't one and the same.



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
Sometimes I don't know why I bother. What harm is there in letting gay people marry, civil or religious? How can that affect you in any way? And HOW is it mocking religion? Contrary to what you may think, Atheism and homosexuality aren't one and the same.


did you read what i said? i said marriage is part of religion, the state should not have any say in said religions affairs, ie: if religion doesnt want to perform something noone has the right to force them to do it because it violates their right.

civil union performed by the state should be illegal for all, its the state performing a religious act.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by namehere]



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:42 PM
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Organized religion does not predate marriage...

Marriage is part of religion, but religion is not a part of marriage.

Does anyone understand that we do live in a secular society ?



Deep

[edit on 6-6-2004 by ZeroDeep]



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Organized religion does not predate marriage...

Marriage is part of religion, but religion is not a part of marriage.

Does anyone understand that we do live in a secular society ?



Deep



true but marriage was adopted by religion as a religious act so it is considered as such by many, and the law should view it as such and not allow the state to perform marriage.

im viewing this in a secular way, im saying its a religius act and the state being secular should not perform marriage.

read this article www.gay.com.../06/04/2 its basically what im saying, the church should not be forced to do or not do what the state deems wrong or right, its the churches choice to perform or not perform gay marriage, the state shouldnt ban gay marriage or allow state performed marriage in any case.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by namehere]



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
What harm is there in letting gay people marry, civil or religious? How can that affect you in any way? And HOW is it mocking religion?


What a crock! This lame post from a scholar? I might expect this from ZeroDeep since his name matches the depth of his analysis on this issue.



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 07:31 PM
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Ok alterego, seeing as you insulted 2 people in one post, dazzle us with your brilliance and post a POINT. That type of behavior is for the Pit, which I would be glad to meet you in, not the news forum.



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 07:40 PM
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My point is, that after reading the entire thread, no one answered the question of "rights". I'm a libertarian and I'm sick of liberals talking about their "rights". "Rights" are just a lame excuse for one who's lost the argument based on the merits. Zero seems to have come in to rescue you. Same point. This whole thing was about rights. Or maybe it was simply a veiled attempt to advance the gay agenda. So far I've heard nothing to truly defend gay "marraige" as legitimate. It's just more of the same, "Oh It's just the nice thing to do! They're so devoted to each other!"

btw - the pit is a better palce for this!

[edit on 6-6-2004 by AlterEgo]



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 07:43 PM
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OK, then you answer the questions I asked and you quoted. How does letting gays have the right to marry in anyway affect you?



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 08:35 PM
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I sure hope alterego replies.

The fact is, whatever our race, color or creed, we are all inter-related. The action of any single person effects everyone else. Have you ever heard of the mystical Body of Christ? If you haven't, I highly suggest you research it. What you'll find is that there is no action in the universe that happens without effecting us all. Am I concerned about this - YES - It effects each and everyone of us!



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