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Scholarly Squad Debunks Biblical 'Discoveries'

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posted on May, 14 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by whit555
There you go again repeating the same history of ignorance.


Seriously? All I said was "relax." Here you are two posts later still whining about it. If that is not getting upset over nothing then my bad. You are obviously just a nut then?


Duh. The Bible says this not me.


Duh, if you are quoting from the bible because you feel it is a reliable place to quote from then you know about God. If not, then your use of it as some kind of reference is wholly out of place. If that is how you roll, go for it. It will not change my life but I would be curious to see how far that particular line of logic gets you in communicating anything to anyone else.


What's so odd? I said I believe. God can do "miracles" (which is just normal for God). I said I don't believe in the miracles Jesus performed. What's odd? I think Jesus and Noah existed. So...


So some of the bible is ok to use as reference but since you do not believe all of it, somehow it is my fault for pointing out that you know your god enough to use that bible to back up a case for him but when it comes to explaining why you are suddenly all ignorance?


Yes. But no. Like I just said above God can perform "miracles" Jesus can't.


What I asked was why you would tell others to do some research before wasting time and then go on to defend yourself by claiming you DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING?


Sigh. Jumping to conclusions again across a code embedded internet. I'm relaxed your simply taking things the wrong way and blindly speaking.


Sigh, I was originally just making a passing comment - "relax." That was it. It is not actually an insult or mark on your character. It was just a blow off kind of thing. You have addressed it now 3 times and insist it did not upset you. OK!




posted on May, 14 2010 @ 10:50 PM
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See this is why I said early I don't wanna waste my time. Now I have fallen into your trap of ignorance and will waste no more of my time. Sorry wish you could offer me something or listen to what I'm actually saying. But your a wall. Nothing there but a stop.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 11:40 PM
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reply to post by whit555
 


Thanks for supplying the good old standard answer for when you realize that your own words belie your cause and you cannot answer real questions about statements you made. Nice having you though.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
So their mission is to debunk people with "a spade in one hand and the Bible in the other."

They go about with "a spade in one hand and an 'anti-bible'"in the other.

How does this make them different than the people that they are trying to discredit?


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



does that mean you think they shouldnt do anything then because it would make them like something they oppose?
if the world had that attitude nothing would ever get done
so it doesnt matter if their like the opposition or not
sometimes you have to sink down to the level of the opposition to get the job done
the end justifies the means



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson
There is no archaeological finds from the bible.


Oh, thanks for the insightful statement of fact.

I have another source that would not completely agree with you and it even goes as far as to suggest Archaeology Validates the Bible! Imagine that




Consider the 1983 discovery by Israeli scholar Adam Zertal, who unearthed a huge sacrificial altar on Mount Ebal, north of Jericho. Its construction perfectly matches the specifications described in Deuteronomy 27:4-8, which was later built by Joshua (Josh. 8:30-35).


It does go on to discuss the finding of many items, that are Biblically Specific, but my interest is in the area of Scholarly Debunking, which is a profit driven industry for Academia and the Slugs that embrace this mindset.

Questioning the validity of the Bible has become fashionable for the academic elite. Weaned on evolutionary theory and molded by years of political correctness, most scholars equate any attempts to validate the Bible as promoting Zionism—a term that advocates of political correctness vigorously reject.


And this is another avenue of dismissal. Minimalists

One major school of thought that rejects the existence of ancient Israel is called biblical minimalism (as spelled out in the 1996 book The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History, by Keith Whitelam). This movement actually denies the existence of ancient Israel, instead believing the biblical account to be imaginative fiction—an invention that covers up the “real” history of the Palestinians. (Our article “Palestine and the Palestinians” shows the true origin of the term “Palestine,” and gives a brief historical perspective of the peoples of this region.) Biblical minimalism holds that the monarchies of David and Solomon, and their rulership over a militarily and economically powerful Israelite nation, never existed. Rather, biblical minimalists portray these two kings as minor tribal chieftains of Jerusalem, which (they claim) was a small and insignificant village.


And then theres just the "For Profit" aspect.

The 2001 book The Bible Unearthed, by Israel Finkelstein, chairman of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, attempted to discredit the biblical record while promoting radical revisions of ancient Israel. The book ranked high on the New York Times’ bestseller list, as Dr. Finkelstein became “the darling of a sympathetic media” (ibid).


And then there was the crazy events that occured on the Temple Mount, with the Bulldozing of Excavations by Radical Arabs, (aka "Palestinians")

Dr. Mazar was critical of the “Israel Antiquities Authority, which by law is responsible for any archaeological activity on the Mount; The Authority didn’t pursue the matter, largely because the second intifada broke out and it had little stomach for enflaming Muslim sensitivities” (“Eilat Mazar: Uncovering King David’s Palace,” momentmag.com).

Such are the dilemmas of a turbulent world riddled with unpredictable outbreaks of conflict and chaos.


But that goes with the Time inwhich we live. It is Biblical Prophecy 101.

And then there comes the "Is the Bible true?" and the effects that all this malice and hate filled denial of all things Israel creates.

Lydia Evdoxiadi, a Greek Archaeologist, expresses her concerns quite well.


But this goes with the Days we do live in. Satan has nothing else to do but manipulate the masses of the world he rules.


And for those which deem Israel, and such with such distain, a healthy dose of reality is always welcomed. ISRAEL 101: A SURVIVAL KIT FOR DUMMIES, THE VOICE OF REALITY, is always a source of much needed realism when it comes to such discussions.


I trust you enjoy all the links, and maybe, just maybe, re-evalulate your opening remarks. Just Maybe.


Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
There is no archaeological finds from the bible.


Oh, thanks for the insightful statement of fact.

I have another source that would not completely agree with you and it even goes as far as to suggest Archaeology Validates the Bible! Imagine that


Your source is wrong. Imagine that. No statement of facts? Read the thread. I guess I just do not feel the need to repeat myself in one thread. You could always read all the way through.

There is no archeological evidence of a set of narratives. Finding places and things mentioned in a book do not prove the STORIES in the book.

If you can convince me otherwise, please do. Until then, you will have to understand the the fact that England exists does not prove Clive Barker writes history books.



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by whit555
reply to post by Angus123
 


It's only land animals. They could all be newborns. And the Bible says God helped Moses with the animals. So if God can create everything I'm also lead to believe God could help Moses accomplish this. Do a lot of research just on this. Then talk to me before we both waste time.


Actually, he said LAND animals. But if God could creat everything and "help" moses, then why not just do it himself? Why use magic to get Koalas and their leaves to moses when he could just recreate them?


So, you both have a preconcieved notion the Great Flood was Covering the Whole Earth, rather than a part of the Earth, as the Bible notes.


Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.


In the Area inwhich Noah lived during this timeframe, we have this account of the Building of said Ark, and the gathering of the Animals as outline in the verse prior to this.

We do see some information in the above Verses though.

15 Cubits, if I am not mistaken, is roughly 45 feet, (give or take a foot).

Maybe, as is the case with most of Humanity, Noah's Area of Habitation was located within a Basin, of sorts, and as is generally found in these areas are "Water Sources" such as Wells, Ponds and Rivers. Generally Low lying areas.

If this could be the case, 45 Feet of water would wash everything away. Nothing would survive. But this does account for the Mt Everst, or the Matterhorn. 15 Cubits isn't even close to covering such places.

I would suggest then, "MAYBE" Noah's resided within the MED Basin, prior to the overflow of Waters through the Pillars of Hercules, and the whole earth was covered with water. Everything known to Noah, would be gone.

Perspective is needed. Certainly there is also ample evidence EVERYONE did not die. Lore and Legends of Many cultures also make an account of a serious event occuring with water, which bears similiar structure, as the Biblical Account. Some can be found in an excellent book called, Atlantis, the Antediluvian World, by Ignatius Donnelly.

Part 2 of the book offers many such examples

There are also several Posts discussing this here in ATS. The Great Flood, Myth or Fabrication, is one example, that maybe you could review.

The Point of all this is, I think we really do not need to be toooo concerned about the Fuzzy little Koala and it's food source. We likely do not need to be concerned with Rocky Mountian Big Horned Sheep, or the Snow Leopard for other examples. The Animals that lived within the area of concern, would be the main concern.

Just Some OPINION being offered to reflect upon.

Ciao

Shane




[edit on 27-5-2010 by Shane]



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by K J Gunderson
 


Hello K J

So I take it the Biblical Narratives that led to the Actual Discovery of David's Palace are not to even be given any thought?

Just dismiss it then. Sorry to have wasted your time. A Closed Mind is a difficult thing to Open.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
reply to post by K J Gunderson
 


Hello K J

So I take it the Biblical Narratives that led to the Actual Discovery of David's Palace are not to even be given any thought?


Already given that plenty of thought and already expressed those thoughts. You seem like a decent fellow though so far and that would be rare in these types of threads so lets see if we can have a discussion about this.

Let me run a hypothetical by you.

I can write a story that takes place in my hometown. I live in Rochester, NY. It exists. I can fill my story with all kinds of fictional tales. I can make them believable or fantastic but either way, I can make it all up. The setting will remain Rochester, NY.

2000 years from now for whatever reason, this city no longer exists or seems to. My story does though. Using clues about the setting from my story, archeologist figure out where to look and viola! They dig and find Ancient Rochester, New York.

Now does that prove my story was true?


Just dismiss it then. Sorry to have wasted your time. A Closed Mind is a difficult thing to Open.

Ciao

Shane


I was not being dismissive. The fact is I have answered all of this already and was not sure why someone reading this thread would want to review but I decided that you seemed slightly more level headed than what I have been dealing with lately, I would recant and try. Fair?



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
So, you both have a preconcieved notion the Great Flood was Covering the Whole Earth, rather than a part of the Earth, as the Bible notes.


Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.


I am not sure you are reading that correctly, let me help.


Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.



In the Area inwhich Noah lived during this timeframe, we have this account of the Building of said Ark, and the gathering of the Animals as outline in the verse prior to this.

We do see some information in the above Verses though.

15 Cubits, if I am not mistaken, is roughly 45 feet, (give or take a foot).

Maybe, as is the case with most of Humanity, Noah's Area of Habitation was located within a Basin, of sorts, and as is generally found in these areas are "Water Sources" such as Wells, Ponds and Rivers. Generally Low lying areas.

If this could be the case, 45 Feet of water would wash everything away. Nothing would survive. But this does account for the Mt Everst, or the Matterhorn. 15 Cubits isn't even close to covering such places.


How are you reading it that way? Where does it tell you where to start measuring up from? It says 15 cubits UP, That means 15 cubits above and beyond something. It then says that the MOUNTAINS were covered. How many 45 foot mountains are in that area?

Seriously, can you explain to me how you read it the way you did. Please explain to me where you decided at what point to begin measuring cubits.



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
I would suggest then, "MAYBE" Noah's resided within the MED Basin, prior to the overflow of Waters through the Pillars of Hercules, and the whole earth was covered with water. Everything known to Noah, would be gone.


If it only went up 45 feet, it would be devastating but he would easily be able to see mountains in the distance. Especially if you say he was in a flooded valley. You do know that beyond a valley is higher ground, right?


Perspective is needed. Certainly there is also ample evidence EVERYONE did not die. Lore and Legends of Many cultures also make an account of a serious event occuring with water, which bears similiar structure, as the Biblical Account. Some can be found in an excellent book called, Atlantis, the Antediluvian World, by Ignatius Donnelly.


Big problem with the bible there. I have no problem believing there was some amazing flood that did a lot of damage to a great area but the bible clearly spells out the details. ALL THE ANIMALS were gathered and ALL the hills were covered and it was 15 cubits up as the MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED.

Maybe you need to explain your perspective to me better.


Part 2 of the book offers many such examples

There are also several Posts discussing this here in ATS. The Great Flood, Myth or Fabrication, is one example, that maybe you could review.

The Point of all this is, I think we really do not need to be toooo concerned about the Fuzzy little Koala and it's food source. We likely do not need to be concerned with Rocky Mountian Big Horned Sheep, or the Snow Leopard for other examples. The Animals that lived within the area of concern, would be the main concern.

Just Some OPINION being offered to reflect upon.

Ciao


Basically what you are saying is that in order to believe the bible, you have to tear some pages out. Sorry but that argument never worked on me as a kid and it will not work now. It either says what it says or it does not. You cannot pick and choose which parts to interpret literally, which to fantasize about, and which to just make up a whole new reality for.



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 02:03 AM
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reply to post by K J Gunderson
 


thank you! tonns of zealous myrmidons claim the bible is absolute fact but in truth it doesnt add up!
you are a very interesting down to earth and intelligent fellow many s tars for you



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 07:24 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a cubit supposed to approximately equal eighteen inches? Which means the waters would have only reached 22.5 feet(or ~6.858 meters).



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Mad Simian
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a cubit supposed to approximately equal eighteen inches? Which means the waters would have only reached 22.5 feet(or ~6.858 meters).


Yup. According to everything I could find, it is 18 inches. Meaning that the theory I am battling is the idea that the bible says all the mountains were covered under all the heavens, in 22 feet of water. LOL!!!



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 05:16 PM
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Yes, I'm willing to admit that the 'flood' in the Bible might have been the flooding of a coastal area by a tsunami event but a world-wide deluge....no. The only possibility of a tsunami event happening in the general time and area Noah was supposed to have lived is the theorized Black Sea flooding and, even then, scientists and scholars are still debating its legitimacy.

Another possibility is the eruption of Santorini(Thera) but that's even farther away from Noah's supposed time, however, its occurence is a scientifically and historically accepted fact.

[edit on 5/28/2010 by Mad Simian]

[edit on 5/28/2010 by Mad Simian]



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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you know what i dont get?
christians dont believe alot of science like what k j said about the measurement of the water not being enough to cover the mountains
and christians willget all mad and scream SCIENCE IS NOT GOD!!! AHHH!!! SATAN!!! SATAN!!! AHHH!!!
no one ever claimed science was god EVER
it seems when scientific fact proves taht something in the bible does not add up christians flip their lid and say that scientists are lying
im no math whiz and i dont know measurements but if the cubits arent enough to cover the mountain then theres a problem with the bible not science



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Let me run a hypothetical by you.

I can write a story that takes place in my hometown. I live in Rochester, NY. It exists. I can fill my story with all kinds of fictional tales. I can make them believable or fantastic but either way, I can make it all up. The setting will remain Rochester, NY.


Problem is, your fictional account staged within Ancient Rochester, New York, is a Fictional Account.

Extremists, (and I am not suggesting you are one), have claimed the Bible, and the premise of the tales, (as they put it) which are found within the Bible rank with you Rochester story, which is plainly and obviously not the case. Finding David's Palace, validates the "Davidic" teachings, since without one, there wouldn't be the other.

Therefore, we have a situation where the matter now becomes one of acceptance. If those, with the Anti "Israel", never was a David, and at best, a farmstead domain for Solomon mentality can not accept fact, then it is beyond me, or any for that matter to ever submit evidence they will accept short of having some devination and raising the spectre of David in an occultic seance of pagan channeling to shake the peanut between their ears onto the Engage/Start position.

Oh hell, now I am ranting. Sad part is it's not at you.


Now, I understand your "Point of View". I do not agree with your point of view, which is my right, and I get you do not agree with mine, which is your right.

And I also hope, we can discuss this in a civil manner. It is something this Specific Forum lacks from time to time. To much inbreeding on both sides, as it appears sometimes.

The Only thing I ask anyone, is to read the material offered. Your views, are as valid as Mine, and in most cases, (Not here yet, but it will come), these opposing views actually are not that opposite in the long run.

Just the same Thing/Story told through the eye's of different Origins/Peoples. This is, where it generally ends anyhow.

I see you have "Other comments", so let's work on these next.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson

I am not sure you are reading that correctly, let me help.


You are a funny one KJ


Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.


Yeah, that cleared it up.



How are you reading it that way? Where does it tell you where to start measuring up from? It says 15 cubits UP, That means 15 cubits above and beyond something. It then says that the MOUNTAINS were covered. How many 45 foot mountains are in that area?


Yes, you are right. Just how many?

Since you are "Pushing" the matter, without taking the required efforts to understand what those words actually mean, I'll step up and do your homework for you my friend.

Genesis 7:20 uses the term "mountains" which is for the Hebrew word "har" which means:


2022 har har a shortened form of 2042; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively):--hill (country), mount(-ain), X promotion.


Now, either I am quite dense, or the meaning bears an area of conflict. A "har" is a mountian or range of hills. Hill Country. Those are two distinctly different implications.

But I wonder what we can learn from it's root, 2042?


2042 harar haw-rawr' from an unused root meaning to loom up; a mountain:--hill, mount(-ain).


Meaning to loom up. This does incorperate the premise of "climbing" but fails in providing a "specific" definitive application.

This then leaves us with two things to consider.

Are these actually a Mountain or Mountians or are they a Range of Hills or Hill Country. It is the elevation or climb that is implied, and not the specific identity of the item that looms up.

Lets go a step further.

Let see how else the term get used and see what the "Surroundings" look like.

Numbers 33:47/48 identifies a Place called Abarim.


33:47 And they removed from Almondiblathaim, and pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo.
33:48 And they departed from the mountains of Abarim
, and pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.


So here we see they Pitched in the "har" of Abarim, and then departed from the "har" of Abarim.


5682 `Abarim ab-aw-reem' plural of 5676; regions beyond; Abarim, a place in Palestine:--Abarim, passages.


Palestine eh! Lots of Hills in this land. Not Mountians, but Hills. The whole of the Middle East is hilly, or hill country, yet the "translators" use mountians for the discription, or translation of these lands.

To stress the point....


Clearly, not mountains in the sense of Mt Everest. But as you clearly and openly expressed, it may have been 15 cubits about these mountains, or Hills, as it may also imply. I can live with this. It's still within the realm of Biblical. There is no "Contradiction" here. Just perspective.

I trust I have answered, and you now understand HOW I have the conclusions I have. We just can not ASSUME, the Alps where underwater, when the term "har" is used to describe what we in Southern Ontario also call Mountains. The Problem is for us, it is an Escarpment, and a place such as Blue Mountian, which is the side of the escarpment is only about 1000' at best. Yet, we call these the Blue Mountains. And our "Western" Comrades which live in and near ACTUAL Mountains in B.C. just laugh and laugh, when they "Ski" the biggest mountain, (or better said "bank") we have here in Ontario.

It's a bit of the Apples and Oranges comparison. We are not speaking about the same thing.


Seriously, can you explain to me how you read it the way you did. Please explain to me where you decided at what point to begin measuring cubits.


Seriously, when considering elevation I always start at the lowest viable point of reference and measure upwards until the medium I am taking note of reaches it's uppermost level of contact.

Seriously.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 08:27 PM
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The never found the "palace of david". They found a large stone structure that Eilat Mazar is telling people is the "palace of david".

Large Stone Structure

Spider-man lives in New York City. I've been there. I've personally seen the Empire State Building, Spider-man swings from it every now and again. Does this mean that a Spider-man comic book should be viewed as an accurate chronicle of history? No, it doesn't. If it did, we would conduct Death Ray drills in our elementary schools.
Just because the bible takes place in a real setting doesn't mean that the events depicted happened.



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by NotTooHappy
Just because the bible takes place in a real setting doesn't mean that the events depicted happened.


freeeeiiinnnnddd.
lolololololol
its rare to see someone with a logical viewpoint star for you
they say mothman has been seen in ohio
ohio is a real place ive been there
doesnt mean moth man is real



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