Hiding God's Name

all of those souns for waw/vav are possibilities. yet the consensus seems from what I've read and studied is that yhw (yad-he-vav) is generally transliterated as ye-ho or ye-hu.

As in "Ye-ho-shu-a" for the name anglicized as Joshua. Or y-h-u-d-h, "Ye-hu-dah," Judah in english.

btw, Since the "dots" date from the masoretic age, well after the God's name was enshrined in scripture, they can have no bearing on this topic.

Originally posted by Transc3ndent


Hmmm, there isn't really a word in Hebrew for "I am". You can say "Ani" which means "me" and "anochi", which also means "me", but you cannot say "I am".

Funny; Since God says in Ex 3:14b

"vayomer koh tomer livney yisrael: EHYEH sh'lachniy aleychem."

Say this to them, say to the sons of Israel: I AM sent me to y'all.

It sounds like God can say it, all right. aleph-he-yod-he = "I AM,"

[Note that God uses 2nd person plural pronoun, "Y'all" in colloquial southern U.S. English.]

YHWH=He Causes to Become

No other god can fullfil his promises like the Almighty. When Satan tries to accomplish something it doesn't alway turn out the way he wants. When a demon sets out to inspire something to a man, it cannot be fully accomplished, things get in the way. Only the Almighty can make everything he says come true. That is why, "He Causes to Become"-every thing he says will prove, and he become what every he needs to be in order to make his purpose come true. His name is that guarantee that his prophecies, purposes and his promises will come true.

Many so-called Christians adhere to the Jewish superstition that it is somehow disrespectful to use the name of God.

Well those arent Christians. Real Chrisatians say God's name.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Funny; Since God says in Ex 3:14b

"vayomer koh tomer livney yisrael: EHYEH sh'lachniy aleychem."

Say this to them, say to the sons of Israel: I AM sent me to y'all.

It sounds like God can say it, all right. aleph-he-yod-he = "I AM,"

[Note that God uses 2nd person plural pronoun, "Y'all" in colloquial southern U.S. English.]

EHYEH is "I'll be", not "I am". In Hebrew there is no present form for the verb "to be" (Lehiyot), and therefore it is impossible to say "I am".

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
all of those souns for waw/vav are possibilities...

There is no such thing as "generally transtliterated", it depends on the word, there is no law for this.
The VAV after the HEH in God's name can be translated as "V", and the HEH itself can be read "HO". And you get Jehova.

Those "dots" DO appear in the modern Bible, and there is a small dot above HEH, which indicated it's HO, and there is also a sign called KAMATZ underneath the VAV, which indicates its VA. (If the VAV was O or U, then it would be impossible to put KAMATZ underneath it).

I'm sure those "dots" in the bible appeared long after the bible was written, but as I cannot say that they indicate the correct way to read the bible - you cannot say they do not.


[edit on 12/6/04 by Transc3ndent]

In recent years, a debate has grown over the derivation and meaning of this name. In this tradition, "Yahweh" is often rendered as meaning "I am the One Who Is." Indeed, this last fits nicely with the admonition from Yahweh of the Burning Bush to Moses to tell the sons of Israel that "I AM has sent you." Some suggest: "I AM the One I AM". This may also fit the interpretation of Yahweh as "He Causes to Become." Many scholars believe that the most proper meaning may be "He Brings Into Existence Whatever Exists" (Yahweh-Asher-Yahweh).

en.wikipedia.org...

Jahveh (Yahweh) is one of the archaic Hebrew nouns, such as Jacob, Joseph, Israel, etc. (cf. Ewald, "Lehrbuch der hebr. Sprache", 7th ed., 1863, p. 664), derived from the third person imperfect in such a way as to attribute to a person or a thing the action of the quality expressed by the verb after the manner of a verbal adjective or a participle. Furst has collected most of these nouns, and calls the form forma participialis imperfectiva. As the Divine name is an imperfect form of the archaic Hebrew verb "to be", Jahveh means "He Who is", Whose characteristic note consists in being, or The Being simply.

www.newadvent.org...

Kinglizard is on the right track with the comment on imperfectives, especially as regards archaic names. Present and future tenses are not indicated in Biblical Hebrew as they are in Indo-euorpean languages. The imperfective can be equally present/future. It as logical to say that a-h-y-h is present tense as it is future, since it doesn't indicate time but rather completeness.

As far as transcendant's comments about the vowel points, they were applied after the text was codified, to regularize the pronunciation in the synagogue of the recieved text. The points on the Tetragrammaton are simply the points from the world "Adonai" that have been transferred to the impronounceable name.

Besides, if the waw/vav makes an "o" sound in je-HO-vah, how does it also provide the v/w initial sound in the final syllable. it could be "Ye-Ho-aH" or "Yeh-VaH" but could hardly get BOTH vowel and consonant sound out of the selfsame vav.

I had a look at several grammars, trying to be as precise as I am able.

Classical Hebrew verbs don't express tense (time, i.e. past/present/future).
Instead, they show aspect. (complete vs. ongoing)

In the face of trans3ndants repetitions that there is no present tense in Hebrew, I can only say there is no tense at all.

As far as expressing present and future action, those are both handled with the imcomplete aspect. you CAN so say "I AM" in Hebrew. It's a-h-y-h. Transc3ndant just insists on not reading that way. His argument that it cannot be that is simply a McGuffin.

I don't think that God's self-description in Exodus 3:14 can be said NOT to refer to the present. Since A-H-Y-H is imperfect (presence of the Yod in the root), It can be BOTH present and future; as far as I know, it is groundless to favor one interpretation over the other.

In fact GESENIUS' HEBREW-CHALDEE LEXICON TO THE OLD TESTIMENT has the best article I can find on the topic. Gesenius himself speculated that it was meant to be read both ways in the verse: "I am what I will be," i.e., God is unchanging. Ancient Hebrew may have had vowel inflections that would have expressed this in a way that could not be written with the 22 letters of classical Hebrew.

Gesenius Himself argues that the Samaritan pronunciation, "yahweh" was probably the original pronunciation of the nomen tetragrammaton, citing the abbreviated forms y-h-w and y-w that occur in scripture, as well as the many names that begin with these elements. He apparently felt that the Southern pronunciation, yeho-wah was a later imposition of the vowels borrowed from "adonai." His view seems to have become the consensus.

FFS, I LIVE in Israel, I have spoken HEBREW for all of my life, I use this language everyday when I talk, write, and read. Just like you use English if you live in the US for example.

Although the bible has many words which are not used today, the grammar itself is the same. Actually the modern grammar system in Hebrew was created BY looking at the Bible and other ancient writings, and modified so that it will fit for the tenses which are in the Bible.

Ehiye (A H Y H)= WILL BE.

Hebrew verbs, classical and not classical, DO express tense. And in the Bible many verb are writen in different tenses to represent nothing but TIME.

Most of the verbs have past, present and future tenses. For example the verb "to take" is LAKAHAT in Hebrew. And the tenses are: He took= Hu lakah. He takes= Hu lokeah. He will take = Hu yekah. The same goes for verbs that where used in the Bible. For example by opening a random page in the Bible I can see the word "Kah", which is a command (like "Take!"), and then the word Makim, which means "makes" or "founds", and it is PRESENT tense, and then I can see the word "Yochal" which means "will eat" = FUTURE.

The verb Lehiyot (to be) however, has future and past (Ani haiti, Ani ehiye), but has no present. There is nothing weird about it, that's just the way Hebrew language is built.

As for your question ("...if the waw/vav makes an "o" sound in je-HO-vah, how does it also provide the v/w initial sound in the final syllable...").
The vav makes a V sound, and the heh makes a HO sound (only the first heh in the word). And you get: JE (yod) -HO (heh) -VA (vav+heh).

And by the way,while Eyihe (Alef-Heh-Yod-Heh) is future tense of "I am", the correct translation to English is indeed "I AM", because it will sound weird in enlglish if you say "I will be who I will be", and lose it's real meaning (which in English is more like "I am who I am" than "I will be who I will be"). Those are just natural differences between languages.

But is Yahweh Gods real name??

Is that proven beyond any doubt?

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
But is Yahweh Gods real name??

Is that proven beyond any doubt?

TSTF, very little, if anything, in this reality can be proven 100% true and correct beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is always a certain a margin of error in everything, and there is always the possibility that someone either lied, covered up facts, or in some way hid the truth in the process of information being transmitted, whether in terms of one person commincating with another, or in terms of organizations or institutions disseminating 'knowlege' to the general public.

It all depends on who or what we consider to be a reliable source of knowledge, wisdom, and truth in this world. I trust that the Bible contains much of Yahweh God's word which He intended (and still intends) to deliver to the chlidren of Adam. In His word, He makes clear that His name is to be known and to be used by His people. Therefore, I don't believe that the knowledge of His true name can or will ever be lost to the world. It can only be hidden. However:

KJV Mark 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

KJV Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

KJV Matthew 10:26-27
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Some say that Yahshua was referring to name of God in this passage in Luke:

KJV Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

But we know that our Father Yahweh is more than capable of revealing all truth unto His children.

KJV John 16:12-15
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

KJV John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

KJV Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(See also Luke 11:9-13 & Mark 7:6-11)

So, I believe that God is able to reveal any truth unto His children. Furthermore, I believe wholeheartedly that Yahweh is the name by which the Father has chosen to be known in this world, and Yahshua (Yahweh Saves) is the name of His Son, His physical manifestation in human form.

Remember also, or learn it well if you are not yet aware, that not every being in this world that wears the face of a man is indeed a child of Adam. Cain was the child of the serpent, and all his progeny are the eternal enemies of Yahweh. There have also been other instances, recorded in Scripture, of fallen angels having children by the daughters of Adam, contaminating their bloodlines with demonic DNA. In fact, fallen angels themselves can, and do often, appear as men in order to destroy and deceive. If any have any doubts about this, please read the following:

KJV Romans 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Satan and his offspring, "the children of the devil" (see John 8:44) are the ones who are doing all they can to sow doubt and confusion about the true name of God, and every other issue of any relevance or importance to the inhabitants of this earth. Make no mistake, this is a war we are fighting. Our enemies, the sons of darkness, will stop at nothing to deceive, cheat, steal from, and murder the sons of light, for that is their nature.

I'm not saying that everyone who doubts or questions whether Yahweh is the true name of God is a child of the devil, but it stands to reason that, if they are, in fact. children of Adam, then the source of their doubt is or was Satanic in nature.

The wisdom of the world will tell us that the true pronounciation of the name of God is lost. But we know what Yahweh has to say about the "wisdom of this world", do we not?

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:18-31
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Yahshua, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord [kyrios].

*2962 kyrios, n. lord, master. This can be a title of address to a person of higher status, �lord, sir�; a master of property or slaves; or a NT translation of the Hebrew 151 �Lord� or 3068 �LORD,� that is �Yahweh,� the proper name of God in the OT:- Lord/lord [703], Lord/lord�s [15], sir [11], masters [8], master [4], lords [3], God [1], masters� [1], owner [1], sirs [1]

3068 YHWH, Yahweh, n.pr.m. LORD (Yahweh), the proper name of the one true God; knowledge and use of the name implies personal or covenant relationship; the name pictures God as the one who exists and/or causes existence:- the LORD* [6043], LORD* [365], GOD* [309], The LORD�S [79], the LORD�S (+3807.1) [28], Jehovah [4], LORD�S* [1], he [1] [Occurs in the OT aroun 6, 830 times]

*Reference numbers and definitions from the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible

Etymologies as they are "explained" in the Old Testament are often erroneous from a grammatical point of view, so beware when you read phrases like: xxxx was named xxxx because of xxxx...

Nobody, not even the Rebbes, knows for sure anything concrete about the origin or the meaning of the so-called Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) which is the nickname derived from the Greek for "four letters" (tetra + grammaton) refering to the post exilic clan god of Israel (Jews became monotheists after 480BC: before 480BC the Israelites clearly worshipped a variety of other gods and goddessesto judge from all the archaelological evidence unearthed over the past 50 years in Palestine, e.g. "Yahweh and his Asherah (wife), all the various Baals, the god Chemosh, Dagon, Marduk, Nebo etc. (read I-II Kings for a taste of what "foreign" (non Yahwistic) gods Solomon and some of his successors worshipped before the Exile)!

Of course, in the book of Exodus chapter three, the god of the Israelites (who is at last names himself (YHWH) quickly says that "he revealed himself under other names before, such as El Elyon or El Shaddai) doesn't come out and say to "Mosheh" (which does not derive from "masah" - to draw out---but is actually derived from the ancient Egyptian word MOSHEH: "son of", e.g. Ra-Moshe, son of Amon Ra = Ra-Mses), "My name is Yahweh (or "YHWH "since paleo Hebrew is unpointed, i.e. no written or expressed vowells):

Instead the text says,

Yehei esher Yehei

(which is quite different from YHWH) notice that the consonants are arranged differently)

Yehei esher Yehei was apparently his "answer" to the question of "Mosheh" : Whom shall I say sent me to them?

No one knows what "Yehei esher Yehei "really means either.

In the Old Testament the King James Version translates YHWH as "THE LORD" and Elohim ("gods" but governing a singlular verb) as GOD. In the book of Job, the singular feminine of Elohim is used for GOD ("Eloah" which is the common word for the god of the Elamites, present day Afghanistan)

But back to Exodus chapter 3, the term Yehei esher yehei may well mean something like "I am who I am" (esher means "that which" and "yehei" seems to be related to the verb "to be").

Or it may mean, I am who I always was. Or even "I will be whom I will be!"

Or, possibly, "Yehei esher Yehei" was supposed to have meant something like, "mind your own business!!" = ("I am who I am and that's that" in a sarcastic sense) or it could possibly be related to various other expletives used in ecstatic worship.

Curious perhaps is that the Ablative form of Jupiter (Zeus-Pater or Father Zeus) in Latin is: IOVE, pronounced Yo + weh, which is mysteriously similar to "Yahweh" which is an approximate pronunciation of the Name accordin to the Greektranslation of Exodus chapter 3 (part of the LXX or Septuaginta translation about 300 BC in Alexandria Egypt for non Hebrew speaking "Greek" Hellenised Jews in the Greco-Roman empire) pronounces the tetragrammaton YHWH as "Iaweh" which may or may NOT be accurate.

According to "post exilic" tradition, only the High Priest in Jerusalem could ever legally speak "ha Shem" (the Name) in the Holy of Holies on only one day of the year (Yom Kippur, or Day of Atonement)---at least this was the rule after 480BC. Before the Exile into Babylon, apparently YHWH was pronounced outloud with no issue.. others who spoke the name after 480 were stoned to death as "blasphemers".

Iesous (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean) purportedly mentioned ha Shem orally (pullling rank?) during his "interview" with the reigning high priest Joseph Kaiphah (Caiphas) during his Arrest when asked: Are you the Meshiaq, the son of the Blessed one?

And he was supposed to have answered (Accroding to Mark's Gospel) something equivalent to the Greek translation in the gospel: Ego Eimi (Greek for I AM) to which the High Priest tore open his expensive ceremonial robes as a sign that he heard "ha Shem" spoken illegally, the robe tearing being a sign of extreme angst, since the garment was woven so ornately and was regarded with such awe, they were kept in a special vault in the Roman Fortess of Antonia all year long under special guard when not in use !

It is possible the Name of "Yahweh" later (i.e. after the Babylonian Exile) became "un-pronounceable" after 480BC because the "Levitical returnees" back from Babylon (i.e. the militant reactionary "hard liner" 4-families-- out of the orignal 24 that were exiled--) thought that it might have been abused by the people who conquored them (i.e. "lest thy Name be blasphemed among the Goyim..." i.e. to avoid taunt songs by the invadoers etc. ) or that it was feared the Name of Yahweh would have been used in Magic Spell Casting (since you needed the name of the god in order to gain power over him).

Certainly the ancient world believed that knowing the NAME of something (especially a god) gave you power over it. In Genesis Elohim cerates the world by his "word" i.e. "Let their be...." followed by some kind of naming protocol ("and the Darkness he Named Night...")

In ancient India, the world was created (in the Rg Veda) by VAC (cf: Latin VOX) i.e. a Word, in a hymn eerilly remeniscent of Gospel of John chapter 1:1-4 ("In the Beginning was VAC, and VAC was with God, and VAC was a god: and No Thing was Created without VAC...")

The power of "the spoken word or name" was regarded as especially potent in the ancient world.

In Genesis, for example, Yakkov"wrestles" with an "angel" and at day break he asks the angel for his name, which he refuses to give him ("Why do you ask me my name?"), and later Yakkov is told he wrestled with "elohim" (i.e. a god), and the story continues to say that his name would thus be changed to Yisro'el, Man Strives with El (the god).

(Although etymologies in the Old Testament as they are explained in the texts are often dubious: Yis-roeh-el may well mean "Man "sees" El, or Man sees the god").

In Exodus it reads, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh"...One of the 12 tribes of Isra-EL is Asher. Now, supposibly the meaning of his name was happy. So, maybe it really says "I am happy I am"......
I know some hebrew scholar is going to tell me that I'm wrong but I found it amusing.

Amadeus, I�m certain that no human will ever gain any power over the Supreme Being, Prime Creator, Alpha and Omega, and Most High God by knowing and using His name, and definitely not by means of any magical formulas or incantations.

As for the claim that Yahweh and Jove (Yoway) might be a slightly different pronunciation of the same name, I�m not so sure. However, it may be possible, as it is likely that Israelites were involved in the founding of Rome. Troy is said by some to be a colony of Zarahite Jews/Judahites who sailed from Egypt before the Hebrews were enslaved there (Zarah was the younger twin son of Judah by Tamar - see Genesis 38:27-30). The Trojan War may actually have been a war between the tribes of Dan and Judah, for the Greeks are also referred to as Danaans in the Iliad (See Judges 5:17 for evidence that Dan was a seafaring tribe, and 1 Maccabees 12:5-23 where the Spartans claim, and the Jews acknowledge, that the Spartans are also �of the family of Abraham�. The Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus confirms the kinship between the Jews and the Lacedemonians/Spartans in Chapter XII Book IV Section 10 and Chapter XIII Book V Section 8.). After the fall of Troy, ancient writers attest that some of its citizens escaped the destruction and eventually founded new colonies. Aeneas of Troy is claimed to be one either of those who founded the city of Rome (in Virgil�s Aeneid) or at least was an ancestor of the Roman people.

For further reading on this subject, I suggest the following websites:

asis.com...
www.parowanprophet.com...
www.originofnations.org...


About Aeneas of Troy:
www.campusprogram.com...
ancienthistory.about.com...
www.sparknotes.com...

Other grammatically possible pronunciations for YHWH are Yahuah or Yahowah, but I believe God prefers Yahweh.