Arizona has done the nation a favor.

Originally posted by Janky Red

I think you are still missing my point.

If I am, I think that is because you are dancing around your point rather than stating it. I score very highly in reading comprehension, but I am not psychic.

Originally posted by Janky Red
Which ever "side" can generate enough anger will win in the long run, I am saying it would be in your best interest to learn what does not anger the people who might come in to tip the scale against you.

Actually generating anger, as I see it, is not the determining factor. The determining factor is generating action in terms of politics.

Illegals can get as angry as they want. They dont get a vote. Unless we cave and give them one. If they get really really angry, and break even more laws by rioting or going after legal Americans, it might even work very much against them. So I disagree that he who is the most angry wins.

I think he who can move the most voters wins. And in America, illegals dont get to vote. Americans get to vote.

If you are insinuating that white Americans should behave a certain way to get brown and black Americans on board, I would say you assume they are not already on board.

The media and the illegals are making this a race issue. They are making it a "evil white people discriminating against brown people" issue. It isnt. I know Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, I know all kinds of Americans who are against the flood over our southern border.

The problem is our politicians. Neither side wants to end the flood. Not the Democrats, nor the Republicans. They are part of the reason the media is making it look like a race issue.

The Republicans want the cheap illegal labor. The Democrats want the votes. Both parties are beholden to Corporate interests who have an economic interest in weakening the Constitution (for economic reasons) and our borders, (for North American Union issues) and who would like American labor to be in an even weaker position than it already is.

If you are thinking about the sport and not the game, by all means share a strategy you think would work. For me, dragging the issue back onto the issue is a strategy. Refusing to allow the American people's desire for control of our borders be defined as racism is a strategy.

Loving this country and her people and trying to protect her from those who would use her selfishly, and destroy her Constitution is a strategy. And the people I am referring to there are not just the illegals, but the politicians and their corporate sponsors as well.

America is a nation of people. The people whose interests are being considered the least here are the legal, law abiding American citizens. And in my mind thats a damn shame.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Angus123

 

So besides being a coward and hiding behind race.....

Tell us how you really feel?

People should not be prosecuted for their race, color, ethnicity, religion blah blah blah.. but guess what?

THEY SHOULDN'T BE PROTECTED BY IT EITHER!

So... under your astute liberal logic.. because they are brown .. they should not be prosecuted for their crimes.

How the bloody hell does that make sense?

Please..

I am dieing to know. You want to throw the race card out there, then lets talk race and how criminals can hide behind their color to be protected from the law.

You can be detained in Arizona for no damn reason other than the cop feels like it until you prove citizenship.

THAT is a government power grab.

I am all for shipping the illegals back where they came from.
i am NOT all for giving up my liberties to accomplish it. Chicken sh1ts do that sort of thing.

Nobody is saying let them hide behind their race.
The POINT is YOU know that YOU won't be targeted because of YOURS.

RACE is the ACE card you have up YOUR sleeve and you damn well know it.

Originally posted by Angus123

You can be detained in Arizona for no damn reason other than the cop feels like it until you prove citizenship.

THAT is a government power grab.

Is that whats going on? Have they made a law saying they can grab you off the street for no reason and hold you until you produce papers proving your citizenship? And presumably with no trial or other legal assistance?

Because thats not what the law they passed says, even though that is how the propagandists are framing it.

They even amended it to make it VERY clear that they were not going to be randomly stopping people based on race and asking for documentation.

Maybe you could post something that shows that this is going to be them pulling people off the street simply because cops want to and holding them until they prove their citizenship, because thats not how I read it at all.

Although we do already have laws kinda like that in the US. You know, the ones from the Patriot act? Which were surprisingly fine by most people. Just as long as legal American citizens are being snatched and held indefinitely without legal representation thats fine. But for the love of God dont ask people to prove they are here legally or inconvenience illegals in any way.

That would be crazy talk.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Angus123

You can be detained in Arizona for no damn reason other than the cop feels like it until you prove citizenship.

THAT is a government power grab.

Is that whats going on? Have they made a law saying they can grab you off the street for no reason and hold you until you produce papers proving your citizenship? And presumably with no trial or other legal assistance?

Because thats not what the law they passed says, even though that is how the propagandists are framing it.

They even amended it to make it VERY clear that they were not going to be randomly stopping people based on race and asking for documentation.

Maybe you could post something that shows that this is going to be them pulling people off the street simply because cops want to and holding them until they prove their citizenship, because thats not how I read it at all.

Although we do already have laws kinda like that in the US. You know, the ones from the Patriot act? Which were surprisingly fine by most people. Just as long as legal American citizens are being snatched and held indefinitely without legal representation thats fine. But for the love of God dont ask people to prove they are here legally or inconvenience illegals in any way.

That would be crazy talk.

Maybe you could post something that says they're not.

If it isn't true then what exactly is new about this law?
How was enacting it beneficial to authorities in any way?
Everyone defending it in a yee-haw fashion, well then what's the enthusiasm for if it's nothing new?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Janky Red

I think you are still missing my point.

If I am, I think that is because you are dancing around your point rather than stating it. I score very highly in reading comprehension, but I am not psychic.

Originally posted by Janky Red
Which ever "side" can generate enough anger will win in the long run, I am saying it would be in your best interest to learn what does not anger the people who might come in to tip the scale against you.

Actually generating anger, as I see it, is not the determining factor. The determining factor is generating action in terms of politics.

Illegals can get as angry as they want. They dont get a vote. Unless we cave and give them one. If they get really really angry, and break even more laws by rioting or going after legal Americans, it might even work very much against them. So I disagree that he who is the most angry wins.

I think he who can move the most voters wins. And in America, illegals dont get to vote. Americans get to vote.

If you are insinuating that white Americans should behave a certain way to get brown and black Americans on board, I would say you assume they are not already on board.

The media and the illegals are making this a race issue. They are making it a "evil white people discriminating against brown people" issue. It isnt. I know Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, I know all kinds of Americans who are against the flood over our southern border.

The problem is our politicians. Neither side wants to end the flood. Not the Democrats, nor the Republicans. They are part of the reason the media is making it look like a race issue.

The Republicans want the cheap illegal labor. The Democrats want the votes. Both parties are beholden to Corporate interests who have an economic interest in weakening the Constitution (for economic reasons) and our borders, (for North American Union issues) and who would like American labor to be in an even weaker position than it already is.

If you are thinking about the sport and not the game, by all means share a strategy you think would work. For me, dragging the issue back onto the issue is a strategy. Refusing to allow the American people's desire for control of our borders be defined as racism is a strategy.

Loving this country and her people and trying to protect her from those who would use her selfishly, and destroy her Constitution is a strategy. And the people I am referring to there are not just the illegals, but the politicians and their corporate sponsors as well.

America is a nation of people. The people whose interests are being considered the least here are the legal, law abiding American citizens. And in my mind thats a damn shame.

Ok

I am talking about group dynamics and you really don't seem to understand

It doesn't matter, it is a specialized consideration anyways -

have a nice weekend (:

This isn't about anger. It's about the blatant racial profiling that the state of Arizona has made legal. Requiring someone who appears to be an illegal immigrant to be prepared to show identification is a blatant attempt to profile hispanics in the area. It's a disgrace to the United States. Over 230 years of existence and controversies over race still mark society...it's a shame.

Originally posted by Angus123


Maybe you could post something that says they're not.

Ok, you dont want to read it yourself.

www.abc15.com...

"These new statements make it crystal clear and undeniable that racial profiling is illegal, and will not be tolerated in Arizona," she said in a statement.

Changes to the bill language will actually remove the word "solely" from the sentence, "The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin."

Another change replaces the phrase "lawful contact" with "lawful stop, detention or arrest" to apparently clarify that officers don't need to question a victim or witness about their legal status.

Originally posted by Angus123
If it isn't true then what exactly is new about this law?

That might be nice to know if you are going to have an opinion on the issue, huh?

From the Bill itself;

www.azleg.gov...

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

Translation, it requires police when they have stopped people for some reason (not just because they are brown) to determine if they are illegals if they reasonably suspect they are.

Originally posted by Angus123
How was enacting it beneficial to authorities in any way?

Because it created a state law that makes it a state crime to be in Arizona illegally, with a sentence to go with it. Under federal law, you could deport. The new law allowed some jail time too. You know, a punishment for breaking the law.

G. A VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS A CLASS 1 MISDEMEANOR, EXCEPT THAT A
28 VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS:
29 1. A CLASS 3 FELONY IF THE PERSON VIOLATES THIS SECTION WHILE IN
30 POSSESSION OF ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
31 (a) A DANGEROUS DRUG AS DEFINED IN SECTION 13-3401.
32 (b) PRECURSOR CHEMICALS THAT ARE USED IN THE MANUFACTURING OF
33 METHAMPHETAMINE IN VIOLATION OF SECTION 13-3404.01.
34 (c) A DEADLY WEAPON OR A DANGEROUS INSTRUMENT, AS DEFINED IN SECTION
35 13-105.
36 (d) PROPERTY THAT IS USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF COMMITTING AN ACT OF
37 TERRORISM AS PRESCRIBED IN SECTION 13-2308.01.
38 2. A CLASS 4 FELONY IF THE PERSON EITHER:
39 (a) IS CONVICTED OF A SECOND OR SUBSEQUENT VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION.
40 (b) WITHIN SIXTY MONTHS BEFORE THE VIOLATION, HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM
41 THE UNITED STATES PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1229a OR HAS
42 ACCEPTED A VOLUNTARY REMOVAL FROM THE UNITED STATES PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED
43 STATES CODE SECTION 1229c

Read the bill. Dont get your education from TV. (or posters here)

Speaking as a legal permanent resident, I really don't see the issue. Illegals are an acknowledged problem, over half of the illegals are as someone so quaintly stated "tan". So therefore if one is :

a.) "Tan"
b.) Living in Arizona.
then....
c.) Carry your ID.

I do, have done so for the last 15 years and I'm a white englishman, travel extensively for my job.
It's useful when traveling outside of the borders also, as upon my return I use it rather than my British passport.(Immigration actually prefer it in my experience)

Hell, most of the people on here complaining have probably violated their own privacy more with facebook accounts, twitter etc..........

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Angus123


Maybe you could post something that says they're not.

Ok, you dont want to read it yourself.

www.abc15.com...

"These new statements make it crystal clear and undeniable that racial profiling is illegal, and will not be tolerated in Arizona," she said in a statement.

Changes to the bill language will actually remove the word "solely" from the sentence, "The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin."

Another change replaces the phrase "lawful contact" with "lawful stop, detention or arrest" to apparently clarify that officers don't need to question a victim or witness about their legal status.

Originally posted by Angus123
If it isn't true then what exactly is new about this law?

That might be nice to know if you are going to have an opinion on the issue, huh?

From the Bill itself;

www.azleg.gov...

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

Translation, it requires police when they have stopped people for some reason (not just because they are brown) to determine if they are illegals if they reasonably suspect they are.

Originally posted by Angus123
How was enacting it beneficial to authorities in any way?

Because it created a state law that makes it a state crime to be in Arizona illegally, with a sentence to go with it. Under federal law, you could deport. The new law allowed some jail time too. You know, a punishment for breaking the law.

G. A VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS A CLASS 1 MISDEMEANOR, EXCEPT THAT A
28 VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS:
29 1. A CLASS 3 FELONY IF THE PERSON VIOLATES THIS SECTION WHILE IN
30 POSSESSION OF ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
31 (a) A DANGEROUS DRUG AS DEFINED IN SECTION 13-3401.
32 (b) PRECURSOR CHEMICALS THAT ARE USED IN THE MANUFACTURING OF
33 METHAMPHETAMINE IN VIOLATION OF SECTION 13-3404.01.
34 (c) A DEADLY WEAPON OR A DANGEROUS INSTRUMENT, AS DEFINED IN SECTION
35 13-105.
36 (d) PROPERTY THAT IS USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF COMMITTING AN ACT OF
37 TERRORISM AS PRESCRIBED IN SECTION 13-2308.01.
38 2. A CLASS 4 FELONY IF THE PERSON EITHER:
39 (a) IS CONVICTED OF A SECOND OR SUBSEQUENT VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION.
40 (b) WITHIN SIXTY MONTHS BEFORE THE VIOLATION, HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM
41 THE UNITED STATES PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1229a OR HAS
42 ACCEPTED A VOLUNTARY REMOVAL FROM THE UNITED STATES PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED
43 STATES CODE SECTION 1229c

Read the bill. Dont get your education from TV. (or posters here)

I am an intellectually honest man.
I stand corrected.

reply to post by Angus123


Ohhhh... no .. no .. I get it.. laymens terms:

I'm all for kicking illegals out, except once they are inside we can't prosecute them because if we did we might hurt someones feelings........ and we don't want to hurt anyones feelings...

The message would be simple, you're illegal, but once you get inside the Americans will be to chicken# to do anything about it.

Gotta love that logic.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Angus123

 

Ohhhh... no .. no .. I get it.. laymens terms:

I'm all for kicking illegals out, except once they are inside we can't prosecute them because if we did we might hurt someones feelings........ and we don't want to hurt anyones feelings...

The message would be simple, you're illegal, but once you get inside the Americans will be to chicken# to do anything about it.

Gotta love that logic.

Yeah... that makes sense. Be a buffoon on someone else's time.

I wont be going anywhere near arizona I really dont feel like being harassed, I agree something must be done just not this.
This will cause not only boycotts of the whole state but more than likely lawsuits.

reply to post by Angus123


I can only assume then you agree.. as like all other typical progressive responses .... you fail to have any opinion what so ever in regards to illegal immigration. It's one thing to say "oh I think they should be shipped back home" ... it's quite another to have an actual opinion on what could be done. You've said nothing more than a copout .. "I don't want anyones feelings to get hurt"

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

I loathe it when people, particularly those who have "truth" in their names, play the emotion card but offer absolutely no "truth."

LOL!!! Look at yourself. Do you even know what you are writing? You ALREADY HAVE hate when you write that piece of rubbish, AND are playing the emotion card, and by your defination, in your own writing, what you wrote or fill this thread here is more thrash! Only those who share hate supports you.

You attempt to portray yourself as some objective know it all, but at the end, you allowed your hatred to show through. Whatever 'truth' your write, that comes from the processing of your 5 senses, had been blinded with hatred. Can anyone trust your views?

There is so much hatred around. There is no need to spread it more. It is hatred against each other that will doom us all. Have we tried instead to seek better solutions for compromises, or must the gun and instruments of repression be the only way to deny a man his free will and responsibility?

Already we have a Constitution, and had we not seen how it can be and had been abused by lesser men, what more a piece of repressive bill from Nazi Arizona?

Enjoy and have fun with your hatred. It grows and feed upon you and lashes out at others. The only eventual ending of such hatred when allowed to fester uncheck is 'Gotterdammerung' - destroy ALL!!

SIEG HEIL VOLKSARIZONA !!!!!!

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Angus123

 

I can only assume then you agree.. as like all other typical progressive responses .... you fail to have any opinion what so ever in regards to illegal immigration. It's one thing to say "oh I think they should be shipped back home" ... it's quite another to have an actual opinion on what could be done. You've said nothing more than a copout .. "I don't want anyones feelings to get hurt"

Thats the thing, the Illegals should just stay here, in fact they are tired and should get
some time off once they get here. A couple years of R&R will really do a person good,
they need to get in touch with their feelings after all the stress. Also they should get
more government assistance, those checks are pathetic, I have to get fifteen of them just to pay the two mortgages, the Audi and the cool stuff I get on Ebay each month.

We progressives love illegals because they are people too. Fragile souls,
looking for a better home, with free money and taller women.

What kind of response do you think TPTB want you to have? This is just a small taste for the ushering in of National ID cards. They want you to think its about protecting us amerikans from drug smuggling baddies... I betcha its really about getting us tagged and chipped like the cattle fodder we are....

OR maybe Arizona needed to kick some people out of its state to make room for the LUCIFER TELESCOPE!! either way, I smell a RAT!

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by daskakik
Stop believing the propaganda.

Im not basing my opinion of Mexico on propaganda. I am basing my opinion on Mexico on the fact that millions of its citizens are unhappy enough there to leave and come here illegally together with the propaganda. Not to mention all the people I know who have family in Mexico who tell me what a # hole it is, and how they hate it when they have to go down there to visit.

Like I said I have lived in both countries. The propaganda works on both ends.

People in 3rd world contries are led to believe that all they have to do is get into the US and it's all about just picking up bills off of the street. Everyone that I have met has a plan: "I'm going to go to the US for 1 year and work really hard. Save all my money and when I come back I'm going to build my home, start my own business and buy a car."

1st step: get in up to your neck in debt to pay a smuggler.
2nd step: get into the US
3rd step: realize that you have to work hard for the money and that one year ain't gonna cut it for you to pay the debt you got into in step 1, save enough for you to build your home, start that business and buy a car.
4th step: dig in cause you got no choice.

Now after having been there for a few years maybe they fix their immigration status they come back to the 3rd world. Now I grew up in the US and I just don't get where these people who grew up in these countries and have lived in the US for a couple of years come back with this scorn for their homeland. What they do real well is fill the heads of those here that in America they are big shots and that money just falls in their lap.

I had an aunt visit me a couple of months ago and she kept repeating that everything was "primitive" and that nothing had changed since she had left. What a load. I came here before she left for the US and it is nothing like it was back then (30 years ago)

I have talked with many foreigners here from the US and Europe and none of them talk bad about Mexico or Central America. I mean they do point out the differences but they also make note of the similarites.

Ofcourse there are flaws like in anything touched by humans. Corruption, violence, abuse by the authorities, poverty and (the most visible) poor urban planning.

Now having grown up in Chicago I recall seeing all of this. Perhaps in lesser degrees but still there. The only thing I would omit is the urban planning but if you think about it it is cosmetic more than anything.

This is a fairly long thread; was it mentioned that native americans might not have id on them?

I believe the AZ law is a step in the right direction, I hope more states implement it. I hear a lot of people complaining about what the whites did to the Native Americans, and nobody is saying it's right. But do you REALLY want these illegal immigrants and Mexico declaring war on the United States like these groups such as La Raza? Illegals crossing the borders and murdering families on ranches througout the southern states? Something has to be done, you don't waltz into cities waving your Mexican flags and expect us to smile and like it. You wanna be American? Try waving an American flag instead. Don't talk about whites like you are gonna make war on us, kill us indescriminantly and take this country back. If war is declared, watch what happens, see if the United States doesn't blow Mexico up and pave it over. The groups who really believe they are gonna take back California are delusional, between the law enforcement agencies, the Federal government and gun carrying citizens you HAVE to know that we will NEVER tolerate that, if they really want a war they will get one, and they will LOSE.

To be honest, why isn't Mexico patroling their border looking for illegals sneaking out? Why should we make all the effort to keep people out when Mexico should keep them in?