Arizona has done the nation a favor.

Originally posted by rcwj1975

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by rcwj1975
And by the way...for ALL the members who still haven't educated themselves on the new AZ law....they need probable cause to stop and ask "for papers", as you guys like to put it, NOT just randomly walk up and ask.....gee how nice...AZ IS following the constitutional guidelines set...but yeah we know...they are still hitler in your eyes.

Better read it again. This time, read it out loud for the whole class to hear so we can see where you are messing up.

I have read it again...including the amendment made...apparently you have not.

Then why are you having such a hard time enlightening me with anything real? Show me the bill and then try and say it says what you think it does. Let's see how that works out.

Originally posted by Phedreus
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

There seems to be quite a lot of disinformation on this part of the law. Both federal and state law requires that the person have already been legally stopped and during the course of that stop probable cause was found to question the person’s immigration status.

Yeah, that is how the right wing radio keeps selling it. Look at the actual wording again.

So the idea of the Gestapo coming up to someone standing on the street and asking for papers is moot. Further there are federal regulations dictating that non US citizens in this country have in their possession visas, passports, ECT, and be prepared to produce such document upon request by authorized personnel.

Right so no need for any new law if it is exactly as you say it is, then huh?

Finally, if we had half a million Icelanders, all blond haired and blue eyed, streaming across our borders and causing the same problems, the mantra we would be hearing would be quite different. “Hey officer, why are you stopping me? Do I look Icelandic?”

If frogs had wings they would not bump their ass on the ground.

All of the points seem to have been debated. Some that are against this law have made the valid point that legal citizens could be harassed as a result of this law, so therefore, if you can't stop them at the border you must leave them be.
I don't agree with that approach.
I think, therefore, for all of its faults, this law is needed.
If you make it a crime to hire them, you still have illegal citizens roaming the streets. You have them in your schools, parks, and hospitals. Unable to work legally, what does that leave them?
If you are in the state illegally, you don't want to get pulled over. I have seen the vehicles abandoned with the people running into the woods upon getting pulled over. This law doesn't change that. It just gives the police the tools to deal with them when they are finally caught.
"Oh, my rights!" What rights? You have to have a permit to wipe your butt in America, and you are afraid of THIS law?
Give me a break.


[edit on 1-5-2010 by Stewie]

And what is “Probable Cause? Is it hey your brown let me see your original Birth Certificate. Or is it Hey, your shoes are dirty, let me see your Original Birth Certificate. Or is it Hey, your standing here by a 7-11 by yourself, let me see your papers.

The point is that “Probable Cause” means anything you want it to mean and than what’s next. Your Brown/look dirty/standing in the wrong place, where is your OBC, what’s in your bag? Open your trunk. It will just get worse.

For all you that cry Big Government and turn their head at this, then you’re the problem. If you are serious about Illegal Immigration than tell your Governor to enforce the existing immigration laws and Crackdown on the Employers who Hire illegal immigrant. You know what happens when the police find a illegal, he goes home and that employer think “ Huh, I guess I need another 2 illegals to get this job done.”

reply to post by Evisscerator


Kinda no surprise, coming from a "West Texan":

3.) Annex Mexico into the United States, take down and destroy their corrupt government and make them all 14th Amendment citizens of the UsA, thus also taking their natural resources and tourism as our own.

As to the rest of your rant...it speaks for itself. Either it shows the COMPLETE and utter lack of the deep comprehension regarding this 'problem', by the knee-jerking bigots who are, sadly, the majority in this latest tirade....

....OR, it was a very cleverly written sarcastic diatribe.


I'll let others decide. BUT, the logical inconsistencies are evident, so maybe I'll back down on the "clever" compliment....


Now, can someone please tell me, again, just HOW these hard-working individuals, who happen to risk a lot to come into the USA illegally, yet contribute to the economies of their local cities and towns are taking away JOBS from legal residents?

the governor implemented the fixes in wording and so forth to satisfy all the racists out there calling racism so now you truely have no arguement. GOOD FOR ARIZONA!! ignore what all the nay sayers do and say and implement the law the way its suppose to be. yeah, theres alot of illegals and yeah, the democratic party is pissed cause its gonna lose alot of voters but do whats right for us in the here and now and for the future of our children and our country.

that said i believe america is a speeding train with no conductor and one way or the other or prolly all, we as a country will be finished real soon... were heading the way of the european PIIGS, the UK except when we fall, its gonna be catastrophic.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by TheCoffinman]

To RCWJ1975 since you posed a question to me:

It would be foolhardy to talk and conduct a rational discussion here with you, for you are not prepared to listen, at least not yet, in your presumption that others here attacking your position, which is far from the truth.

You and I are humans, with the same goal, to live in love and peace. I am sure you care about others, equally as much as others care about you. But there are questions raised on the issue legislated by Nazi Arizona which may have long term poisonus viral effects onto other states in the country we love.

When you are ready to listen and rationally discuss, I will come.

But just to share an insight on the perception that other countries are doing so, so why not we:-

I had travelled to many countries, and lived amongst them for a time, not on luxury tours, but working with my brains and bare hands. Although this alone does not qualify me as a expert, not by a long shot anyway, still I can only report what I saw and experienced.

USA is a special and unique country, because of its freedom and protection by the sacred Constitution of freedoms. Many other countries try to duplicate it, but for greedy self preservation of power, they amended it to ensure their sustained power, or totally corrupt their constitution.

It is such freedoms that led to the progress of the nation, to question without fear and favour, to vote without fear or favour, to speak out without fear and favour. This trait is unique and rare, practically non-existant in Asia and the Middle east, and parts of Europe.

Which is why US is a prosperous and technologically advance country. Even when the financial crisis hit, society did not crumble like some others. Many blame on the people being consumers which led to the crisis, but the reality was that the greedy Corporations sold out on US and the people, which is now being rectified.

Other nations that do not have this unique trait, do not progress as well, and is fully dependent on tech and science either learnt or stolen from US. The people there are not stupid, and are very hardworking, but they have lost that 'elan' - the spirit of adventure crucial to survival throughout history.

They gave it up either willingly or forcefully to their govts who presumed to provide them security, but then, they are only flawed mortal men, resulting a loss of creative thinking due to fear from the control of govt. The flower that rises too high often gets the chop.

By all means, follow other nations and do like they do, and enjoy the effects later a few years down the road. It will be too late to change, just like what the other nations are doing.

There are other ways to solve the illegal immigration issue than to resort to Gestapo tactics.The People will be putting too much power into the authorities hand without realizing its eventual consequences than goes far beyond just the illegal immigrants issue.

Those elected representatives who push this bill must be seriously scrutinized on their capabilities to find better solutions.

Sieg Heil VolksArizona!!!

Being an immigrant from the Netherlands it infurriates me to see illegals cross the borders and getting treated better than the average citizen.

so I applaud AZ for doing this.

Originally posted by Phedreus
Several responses to my thread have brought up the argument that this law leads us down the abhorrent path to a police state, with the “Gestapo” stopping anyone they choose and reciting the infamous phrase “papers please”. Let’s look at that argument for a moment. The argument can be made that this part of the law is no more onerous in this respect than current state and federal regulations that exist. Let’s take my day yesterday as an example.
My wife, son and I went shopping for my son a new car. At the lot we found one we wanted to test drive. “Why of course sir, no problem, “papers please!” And both I and my son had to produce our driver’s licenses. At the bank where we went to get the loan for the car, once again “papers please” was the catchword and We were required to produce papers; only in this case it went even further, by requiring us to produce ss numbers, bank account statements, and credit history. After buying the new car we went to get it registered and once again the ubiquitous phrase “papers please” was again uttered by the state, requiring that we prove residence in the county and state. Finally, going out to dinner to celebrate our purchase and the fact that we had once again successfully negotiated the maze of plutocratic paperwork and regulations, we order drinks. Alas we had not heard the last of the Gestapo that day. “So you would like a drink, very well, but first, I see that your son looks quite young, “papers please”.

It seems that we are asked for our papers quite a lot these days, and not just to officers of the state, In fact it seems to me that the only time I don’t have to produce my papers is when I go to vote!

Unless you look Hispanic ( Brown skinned) don't worry about the papers thing much because thats the only people that are going to get harassed everyday for their "papers".
And yeah you can say it's not going to be a racial thing all day, but please explain to me where in this law does it say how they're going to determine who is suspicious and should be asked for their papers? I wonder is it going to be the Hispanic guy or the Caucasian white lady? Take a wild guess peace.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Evisscerator

 

Kinda no surprise, coming from a "West Texan":

3.) Annex Mexico into the United States, take down and destroy their corrupt government and make them all 14th Amendment citizens of the UsA, thus also taking their natural resources and tourism as our own.

As to the rest of your rant...it speaks for itself. Either it shows the COMPLETE and utter lack of the deep comprehension regarding this 'problem', by the knee-jerking bigots who are, sadly, the majority in this latest tirade....

....OR, it was a very cleverly written sarcastic diatribe.


I'll let others decide. BUT, the logical inconsistencies are evident, so maybe I'll back down on the "clever" compliment....


Now, can someone please tell me, again, just HOW these hard-working individuals, who happen to risk a lot to come into the USA illegally, yet contribute to the economies of their local cities and towns are taking away JOBS from legal residents?

1st off, I do not RANT. I merely pointed out the most obvious solutions to the problems we face. 2ndly, yes, I am a TEXAN and proud of it. We fought for our land and took it from the Mexicans. They cannot have it back. 3rdly, I am 50 yrs old and am well versed in the issues between the States, the Feds and Mexico.

Illegal Immigration has been a problem for years. I don't blame the mexican people for wanting a better life for themselves, but they need to buck up and fix the corruption in their own government and join the rest of the world in the 21st Century and stop living like a 3rd world nation. If they dont' want bad enough, then they need to continue to live in the poverty and misery they have created for themselves. We don't need them spreading their disease here, that is the cause for draining our economies to give them a better life without them paying for it. I don't owe them a living. You don't owe them a living. And if you like them so much, then maybe you should leave the US and go live south of the border and join them in the plight.

reply to post by XNeMeSis21


and theres your loophole isnt it? how would you find illegal immigrants?

reply to post by jonney_o


Let me explain very clearly for the ignorant Liberals who can't seem to understand the difference between "intended government" "big government" and "oppression".

The Federal Government was created to do a few things:

Regulate international and interstate trade.
Ensure state laws are in line with the Constitution/bill of rights
Represent the States in International Treaty.
PROTECT OUR BORDERS
Facilitate wars declared on the Union.

Enforcing our immigration rules is a job the Government is SUPPOSED to do. Not tell me what Doctor I should see, what insurance plan I should buy, attack innocent countries, regulate what age I should be to drink beer .... so you're argument is yet another straw man tactic at deflecting the actual argument.

Do you support illegal immigration or not?

If you are against this bill, you are against prosecuting illegal immigration, and thus against our national borders, thus against our sovereignty and through these beliefs show your disdain towards our country.

video contains obscene language so be advised..

reply to post by XNeMeSis21


Another ignorant comment, from a TRUE racist who is so completely blinded by skin color, that he/she has FAILED to read the bill. The police ARE NOT out to look for illegals PRIMARILY!! If an illegal alien gets pulled over for speeding, or stopped for loitering or some other offense, like ANY of us, they will be asked for ID. If in the couse of that ID'ing, it's found they are here illegally, they can be arrested for that, it doesn't matter WHAT country they are from, or the color of their skin. The police WILL NOT be pulling over people because they look Mexican. Jesus Christ people. The language in the law was amended so to ease the fears that those who either report a crime, or victims of a crime will be asked to prove citizenship, they WILL NOT. Only if you're suspected of breaking a law or ordinance, and the police, as with ANY OTHER stop, must have probable cause, and skin color is NOT probable cause. This law MIRRORS the federal laws, which the feds refuse to enforce because they are bought and paid for by special interests, and those interests are not of the American people.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by 27jd]

To the leftist types out there I don't see why you are kicking up all the fuss. According to the Constitution most of the powers of government were delegated to the states or were in concurrent possession of both the state and federal government.

As I see it Arizona and the rest of the states are completely in the right enforcing immigration laws. As far as the papers please argument you lost that one when the driver's license came out in the 20th century.

Also you need to look at the flip side of the argument here. Uncontrolled illegal immigration is changing the fabric of the country. The social services are being overwhelmed by floods of uninsured illegals. Depriving taxpaying citizens of those very services. Causing major tax increases to pay for it all as well. They also take jobs that citizens should have first crack at. They also drive down wages because they will work for lower pay as well. A meat cutter in a packing plant in the 1970's made $25 an hour doing that job. It pays approximately $12 to $14 now.

Unlimited immigration is dragging down the quality of life in the US. They are bring their problems, diseases, and crime into my country. I expect my government to fight that. Otherwise we have no use for the government and it's time to get a new one.

You may not like it but nations are built around language, borders, and culture. Lose those 3 and there is no nation.

reply to post by 27jd


______beforeitsnews/story/38432/What_do_Hispanic-American_citizens_say_about_the_illegal_invasion.html
What do Hispanic-American citizens say about the illegal invasion?

“I don’t care if they are Black, Mexicans, Caucasians or Martians; I get mad down to my toes. They are unfairly gaining an advantage that I waited patiently for; I followed the rules.

“In another post, I asked how California, Arizona, and Texas elected Republican governors if in fact the Hispanic population of those states sides with Democrats who favor amnesty and lax immigration standards. Even New Mexico supported two term Republican governor Gary Johnson through 2003.

“By and large, those folks who gain citizenship in this country legally and who work hard, pay taxes, and send their kids to American schools, are absolutely opposed to illegal immigration. They followed the rules and they expect the same of others.

“Spinning the attempt to enforce critical immigration laws as profiling and racism is nothing more than an effort to the shift the blame away from those who created the problem through purposeful non-enforcement. A federal policy of growth at all costs, legal or illegal, does have its drawbacks.”

Do people even understand what probable cause is?

And before you try to explain it in an objective sense, just stop right there.

There is NO OBJECTIVE DEFINITION OF WHAT PROBABLE CAUSE IS.

It is up to the officer themselves to determine what is and is not probable cause. There is no state that has a definitive, objective explanation of what probable cause it. They list certain things that can and can not be considered probable cause but in the end probable cause is left as an ambiguous legal concept left up to the officer to define in any given situation.

Even if the law forbids it, even if there are amendments to try to stop it from happening, it is still going to happen. People will be pulled over for the most ridiculous things, sometimes things that don't even happen (such as saying a brake light is out when it isn't), and people are going to be harassed.

Thinking otherwise means you are a gullible twit.

Once upon a time, Arizona was the sole property of the Apache, the Hopi, and various other Native American tribes.

Then white drug-running (alcohol) gangs came in along with a few settlers and turned a quick profit hunting my people and selling our children's scalps like wolf pelts. Eventually the whites pushed further and more arrogantly displayed contempt for local established authority, the Apache, kidnapping, raping and killing indiscriminately, finally locking us up in concentration camps and deporting us.

When I point out the injustice most Americans roll their eyes and go "geez, quit living in the past, that was sooo long ago, I'm not responsible for what my granddad did".

It occurs to me that they are right in a sense, but not the way they think.

They did steal this land a long time ago, and they aren't today nearly as ruthless as their granddads were. I doubt many would still be willing to scalp a child today, at least I hope not.

Now another group is moving into the neighborhood, claiming the territory as theirs just as ruthlessly as their grandfathers attacked my people. America's claim to Arizona is rooted in theft and murder, but I'm told to stop living in the past and forget it. So if someone takes it from them through the same means, shouldn't they follow their own advice and quit living in the past and accept their new masters?

What goes around, comes around.

Karma really sucks sometimes.

Personally, Arizona deserves whatever happens to it, no sympathy here.

Those that are opposed to this bill probably have darn good reasons other than "they're profiling me and that's not fair".

A few examples:
1. I have a few kilos of something illegal in my trunk.
2. I am an illegal living in this country for a long time and have avoided INS thus far. I work for cash and don't want to pay taxes.
3. I frequently cross the borders and would be inconvenienced by all the extra checking.
4. I am a citizen, but am wanted on several warrants.
5. I'm against anything that has to do with possibly hurting someone's feelings other than caucasian males who are the devil and are obviously related to Nazi's.
6. Drugs and violence are USA's fault even though the major players are from Mexico, Central and South America.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by primus2012]

[edit on 1-5-2010 by primus2012]