Arizona has done the nation a favor.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

As I said we will not see this law actually hit the streets, but the effects of it is huge and needed to be done.

There are several constitutional arguments that AZ can use. one of which I learned today from a Candidate for U.S. Senate & statesman.

Article 1 section 10 of U.S. constitution:

allows for States to defend themselves if invaded;

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

It's amazing (ok not really) and upsetting to see ATS bow down to this oppressive bill.

"Oh it's to kick illegals out of the country."

Yeah, and to detain anyone who is suspected of being an illegal. Who carries actual proof they are a citizen of this country with them around? This bill is repulsive and vile and I'm disgusted so many ATS members support it.

I thought we were suppose dislike the idea of POLICE having too much power? Is the talk about Martial Law really BS made up by the conspiracy theorists? Well, this thread and many others is proving it to be just that. You talk about too much power authorities have and speak of "revolutions" but yet, you support such a new law. Awesome.

Thanks.

reply to post by Common Good


No. Calm down. Everyone on the North American landmass is a patriot and love their country, sharing both joys and woes. At least the majority do.

No one feels good or choose to go against society sanctioned and approved laws. No one enjoys reading about a fellow american suffer in the border states and are presently talking to their families, relatives, friends and elected representatives on pragmatic solutions.

Then there is the issue of drugs and the cartels. It is not only limited to the border states, but in EVERY state NOT only comming in from Mexico, but around the world.

It may seem a hopeless situation, after years of fighting it - both the dealer and the user. But a fight that must never cease, for drugs such as heroin are addictive and destroys lives in so many ways and not just one.

Solutions must be found, but blaming drugs solely on illegal immigrants is a false premise for solutions. Arizona had taken the easy way out.

The only issue is, was that bill throughly debated? Was there no other humane option avaliable and explored exhaustively, that it must led the legislatives to resort to a Police State with eventual inching up of powers gradually as it often does?

What anyone can see is that the instrument of fear is used on a State and soon to National scale. I do not know the future, but what I do know is that any regime that resorts to instruments of fear for control eventually gets thrashed by the abuses it brings forth.

Power corrupts and Power corrupts absolutely, even on the lowest operator of such instruments of fear.

Might as well just declare Martial Law. At least Martial laws will have to end in a time frame. Police states last forever or until they are toppled.

Cheer for Arizona by all means.


Sieg heil !

Generalbevollmächtigter für die Verwaltung
Schutzstaffel SS Reichsführer
Heinrich Himmler

My quote from another thread...

Oh wait... crap I change my mind I'm 100% against this bill. I'm not scared over RFID chips.. It's the fact that I bet they want to cause an uprising. If they are having trouble getting all the "patriots" to uprise (too much fluoride XD)... then they go after the unruly Mexican populations. If the Mexicans result in warfare and rioting, it gives the perfect excuse to call in U.N. troops for "peace keeping"... I'm sure the better half of us know what the code-words "peace keeping" REALLY mean. uhhuh

The race war is not coming.
The republic will fall due too the fact that
it was built on swampland.
AZ is just a small chess game being played figure out
what piece you are. Or if you refuse to play the game.
Alot of the healthcare right wingers morphed into
immigrant haters overnight soon enough
they will grow board and move on to a new
talking point.

The true native elders, original care takers of this region of the
southwest will regain control of this land. We can choose to fight
over illusions of the fate of new Rome, but it's time is coming to
an end. The red earth people have known this for many decades
512 years and we are still here and thriving. To the brothers that
mongrelize and despise my brothers that come from the south insearch
of a better life through hard hard labor. Hold a mirror to your face. Look
at your roots, dig deeper and look for the first man of your bloodline
that set foot on my Yaqui land. Did we as a people extend a hand of mercy?
Or was it a hand of rage and or a blade.

I have met many good hardworking people across the southwest, brown black white yellow,
and all of those beautiful tones and shades in between. They all want the same damn thing. To live in peace to be left alone and to live simpler times, in harmony with mother earth, under father sky, looking up at grandmother moon knowing the great spirit lives in all of us.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


see now. if THAT is what you really have to say then you should have said it back on page one. i appreciate your position and i think it is an important perspective to consider in this very very VERY complex issue.

but all that nazi BS is really just making you sound stupid.


nobody wants this to go wrong, and we all recognize exactly how precariously we are positioned.....so please, stop flailing about babbling german phrases.

reply to post by Phedreus


Illegals will be careful to be on the frontlines of the protest on this issue. I don't see the illegals protesting in the streets while walking past police. If they do that, they might as well take the handcuffs off the officer and put them on themselves. Can you say, turn the lights on and watch them scatter?

reply to post by Killeonidas


that almost didnt sound cheap. really, dude....so close.


but i always have a hard time swallowing any sense of responsibility i ought to personally take upon myself for the misdeeds of my forebears.

yeah. i guess the natives lived here first. but for me its like watching a black and white movie: i understand what is going on logically, but i really just dont connect with it.

respect for the "native peoples of this land" is so old-timey and weird.

Ok, I don't like getting into arguments that no one can win at... this argument is like talking about religion with someone who is atheist, no one is wrong and no one is right, I understand what Arizona is doing, but I would just like to say something before "Illegals" take the blame for where america is today...

I want to say first and foremost....


IF YOU ARE NOT A NATIVE AMERICAN, YOU are the illegal...

I don't care how many generations your family has been here for, I don't care if they got here the "right" way and followed all the "rules", the point is this... YOUR FAMILY (IF YOU ARE NOT A NATIVE AMERICAN TO THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE) came here on a boat and left your countries of origin for a BETTER life. Your family members, the ones that came here before all of you were born here in "AMERICA" are the real murderers, read about it here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Sure you set up a civil way of life, and you set up laws and a monetary system that you praise, but don't forget YOU AND ALL OF YOUR FAMILIES ARE THE ORIGINAL "ILLEGALS", what if... all the native americans finally stood up and kicked ALL OF YOU OUT? wouldn't that be something? What if tomorrow, at 5:30am some native american kicks down your door and tells you to get the hell out of their land? How would you feel? Would you be scared? Would you cry? Would you feel helpless? WOULD YOU THEN HAVE A HEART?

Don't give me that "well that was a long time ago" bull crap, it still happened, and it still effects the native americans... wow you gave them casinos, big whoop de whoop...

YOU RAPED THEIR LAND AND YOU LAUGHED ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.

YOU DON'T THINK THAT THE NATIVE AMERICANS WANT ALL OF YOU OUT OF THEIR LAND? IM SURE THEY DO! If I were here first, I would... wouldn't you?

Let these people do the same, they have every right, they are HUMAN, I AM HUMAN, YOU ARE HUMAN, When on earth are we ever going to learn to love one another, just LOVE AND HELP one another?

I'm not going to even go the Nazi route...

you want to find the real "Illegals"?

Ill give you a hint...

their skin color is white.


It took me 28 years to become an american citizen, and I followed all of your laws and my skin color is brown, it cost me over 2k to do it... and you ask yourself why they don't come here the "right" way? I AM A LIVING EXAMPLE THAT YOUR SYSTEM, LET ME REPHRASE, THAT MY COUNTRIES SYSTEM is broken.

They jump the border because THE SYSTEM MAKES IT DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to do it the right way.

TWENTY EIGHT YEARS IT TOOK ME, explain that to me.


Now lets move on to the african americans, almost 100% of them were brought here on boats and became slaves... did they come here the "right" way? How come no one is kicking them out? HOW COME YOU DON'T SEE THAT WE ARE ALL ILLEGALS!??!?


HAVE A HEART! HELP PEOPLE! THE WORLD LOOKS TO THE USA FOR HELP, THE WORLD LOOKS AT THE USA FOR A BETTER LIFE, IF THEY CAN COME HERE AND HAVE A BETTER LIFE, LET THEM, YOU SHOULD DO IT WITH OPEN ARMS, THE NATIVE AMERICANS TRUSTED YOUR FAMILIES WITH THEIR LIVES AND WHAT DID THEY DO? THEY KILLED MORE THAN HALF OF THEM...

On a side note, you blame illegals for not paying taxes and taking all your jobs? let me touch on that really quick...

goldman sachs, enron, the bush administration have STOLEN more money than all of the "ILLEGALS" ever have, USA corporations have outsourced because americans are too damn expensive, look at nike, look at Microsoft, look at any major corporation, they all get their products made in other countries so they can profit more? WHY AREN'T YOU MAD AT THEM FOR OUTSOURCING? THEY HAVE GOTTEN RID OF MORE JOBS THAN ILLEGALS HAVE EVER TAKEN FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE... WAKE UP, OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE, KNOW IT... THIS IS WHAT YOUR OWN CITIZENS HAVE DONE TO YOU! NOT THE ILLEGALS...


ILLEGALS don't pay taxes? haha bull****, when I was an illegal you can bet your bottom dollar I paid taxes and I have Proof!

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by Common Good

 

No. Calm down. Everyone on the North American landmass is a patriot and love their country, sharing both joys and woes. At least the majority do.

No one feels good or choose to go against society sanctioned and approved laws. No one enjoys reading about a fellow american suffer in the border states and are presently talking to their families, relatives, friends and elected representatives on pragmatic solutions.

Then there is the issue of drugs and the cartels. It is not only limited to the border states, but in EVERY state NOT only comming in from Mexico, but around the world.

It may seem a hopeless situation, after years of fighting it - both the dealer and the user. But a fight that must never cease, for drugs such as heroin are addictive and destroys lives in so many ways and not just one.

Solutions must be found, but blaming drugs solely on illegal immigrants is a false premise for solutions. Arizona had taken the easy way out.

The only issue is, was that bill throughly debated? Was there no other humane option avaliable and explored exhaustively, that it must led the legislatives to resort to a Police State with eventual inching up of powers gradually as it often does?

What anyone can see is that the instrument of fear is used on a State and soon to National scale. I do not know the future, but what I do know is that any regime that resorts to instruments of fear for control eventually gets thrashed by the abuses it brings forth.

Power corrupts and Power corrupts absolutely, even on the lowest operator of such instruments of fear.

Might as well just declare Martial Law. At least Martial laws will have to end in a time frame. Police states last forever or until they are toppled.

Cheer for Arizona by all means.


Sieg heil !

Generalbevollmächtigter für die Verwaltung
Schutzstaffel SS Reichsführer
Heinrich Himmler

I am Calm. Thanks =)

I dont know, if you ask me, if you secure something, that means nothing can get in or out, if it can, well then, its not secure =).

Thats how our borders SHOULD be.

We shouldnt have to worry about if they are secure or not, They should ALREADY BE SECURED. But they arent, and they need to be.

If they are not secure, than there is no point in having airport security, policeman, or any othe public servicemen/women for anyone can just get in and screw us over.(WHICH IS HAPPENING NOW).

Its like saying..

"No I do not want to lock my doors at night, I trust that nobody will try to break in, but if they do, oh well, they are already here I might as well make them some tea while they rob or kill me".

Also- Why would Arizona, The State that was first to stand up with this issue, ruin all of it by police profiling? What would they gain by something like that? NOTHING. It will ruin their cause and THEY KNOW THIS. You act like they havent thought of this already. They are not going to spend Millions if not billions of dollars on something just to have it screwed up by a local racist deputy. The law will be on their side on this one, count on it.

Its not a police state, and it wont ever be, the CITIZENS will make sure of that. The CITIZENS will make sure that everything is handled appropriately. We already know they have no problem taking care of their issues unlikes some other states.




edit-c.g

[edit on 1-5-2010 by Common Good]

reply to post by lernmore


there are too many people both legal and illegal for this to possibly work without racial profiling.

so a few people are dumb enough to think that the people who sneak in illegals aren't going to think of a new way to do it (just like everything else in society). Why not focus on the people who make it easy for them to sneak in and get a job? The only reason why they risk their lives is because they know someone will hire them. If the Fed. gov't severely punished people who hire illegals (min. 25 years, exorbitant fines) and spent the mpney they do on enforcing their poorly enforced laws on deep, thorough investigations into illegal immigrant employers, I HIGHLY doubt this would be as big of a problem as it is.

if there's no reason to come here to live, they wouldn't.

reply to post by piddles

Why not focus on the people who make it easy for them to sneak in and get a job? The only reason why they risk their lives is because they know someone will hire them. If the Fed. gov't severely punished people who hire illegals (min. 25 years, exorbitant fines) and spent the mpney they do on enforcing their poorly enforced laws on deep, thorough investigations into illegal immigrant employers, I HIGHLY doubt this would be as big of a problem as it is.

That's right, let's empower a federal government--the same government that has been given the power to protect our borders and stop much of the illegal crossings, but has failed miserably doing so--to criminalize citizens for doing nothing more than hiring a person and giving them a job. What a concept! It must be the fault of hard working, but undeniably evil business people. They're the reason we have all the problems with illegal aliens.

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the social welfare programs, and very loud, vocal arguments from politicians clamoring for amnesty. Nooooo, that sort of thing is noble and just, but business? Well, any enlightened soul knows business is the root of all evil, so let's keep our borders wide open and easy to cross, let's tax the hell out of the evil people who dare to make a profit off of their own business, so we can redistribute that wealth to illegals, then let us demand amnesty for them while we imprison those who gave them jobs. It's so simple really.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

Originally posted by Killeonidas
The true native elders, original care takers of this region of the
southwest will regain control of this land. We can choose to fight
over illusions of the fate of new Rome, but it's time is coming to
an end. The red earth people have known this for many decades
512 years and we are still here and thriving. To the brothers that
mongrelize and despise my brothers that come from the south insearch
of a better life through hard hard labor. Hold a mirror to your face. Look
at your roots, dig deeper and look for the first man of your bloodline
that set foot on my Yaqui land. Did we as a people extend a hand of mercy?
Or was it a hand of rage and or a blade.

I have met many good hardworking people across the southwest, brown black white yellow,
and all of those beautiful tones and shades in between. They all want the same damn thing. To live in peace to be left alone and to live simpler times, in harmony with mother earth, under father sky, looking up at grandmother moon knowing the great spirit lives in all of us.

That is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read, thank you.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by devenirmusic]

And they should tell the feds and boycotters to go pound sand.

Recon3

unless your a resident of arizona eligible to vote...your opinion simply doesn't matter on this issue.




as for boycotting, i live in San Francisco bay area and i plan on taking a trip to arizona.

probly buy a gun while im down there...

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
HEIL ARIZONA!!!

EIN VOLK, EIN ARIZONA, EIN FUHRER!!!

LONG LIVE VOLKSARIZONA !!!

LEBENSRAUM, MEIN KAMPF, HERRENVOLK ARIZONA!!!

So when are the leather jackets, skulls, bones and lightning insignias be trotted out and issued to the Arizona police?

(a sad day when Nazism whom good men had sacrificed their lives to defeat becomes a present day solution)

You are absolutely correct in this statement. People here DO NOT understand the 10 Amendment at all. ALL POLITICAL POWER IS INHERENT IN THE PEOPLE. That is you and I. I WILL NEVER show any documentation I may have to show I am an AMERICAN. I have no drivers license as YOU DO NOT NEED ONE. I AM NOT a person, corporate fiction, entity, individual, nor any other "fictional entity" which the federal or state government may label me to enforce ILLEGAL regulations or code and ordinance UPON MY SOVEREIGN BEING!!!! I am a flesh and blood living soul!!!! Period.

This is exactly what TPTB wanted all along, a way to enforce the NATIONAL ID CARD and implement the installation of computer chips in all of us.

Problem, REACTION and then THEIR solution. Gullible idiots here!!!

Sad day when people who call themselves Americans can so easily be manipulated into believing this garbage.

YOU ARE NOT A U.S. citizen, I wll scream that at the top of my lungs!!! Wake the hell up already for everyones sake, you are buying into the scam hook, line and sinker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if this is about paying taxes, I don't do that either, learn about your trust account, you are all millionaires and don't even know it!!

The Redemption Manual, read the damn thing!!!!!

loveforlife.com.au...

[edit on 1-5-2010 by daddio]

I only agree with you on two aspects. The border problem has come to a crisis, and there is no end in sight. It seems like either a conspiracy, or pure procrastination on the part of Washington. The polarization of our country, though; it has been something that neo-cons and republicans have been trying to hold for a long time. Sociology 101, divide the society so they can define their enemy. The enemy is them not us. They are the people that caused it. These are things that they like, we don’t like these things so they are our enemy. This allows for structured use of who the enemy will be, because all you have to do is distribute propaganda to convince the masses of what their views are, and who the enemy will be.
On the other hand Arizona is losing money, however; there is some underlying monetary issue that benefits or Government. If there was not I could not see why in an economy like this, there would not be a reason for addressing this.

A theory, robin hood, a good man OR a bad man?

the story goes ,he stole from the rich to give to the poor,
The sherrif of nottingham stole from the poor to give to the rich.
its a matter of what side of the fence you are on.
if you have a gang(sherrifs soldiers) go and nick the poor peoples goods,and puts it in the sherrifs stores,the sherrif then gives a little of what has been stolen from the poor to the soldiers and then,get the gang to protect him from the peasants who may attack the nice sherrif.
Now this is a good business, everything to me is free,and others take all the risks,
years into the future,
some of these soldiers i wll call policemen,others i will call traffic wardens,others will call ????what is the sherrifs name? xxxxxxxxxx fill in the blanks yourself,.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by stmichael]

Originally posted by stmichael
A theory, robin hood, a good man OR a bad man?

the story goes ,he stole from the rich to give to the poor,
The sherrif of nottingham stole from the poor to give to the rich.
its a matter of what side of the fence you are on.
if you have a gang(sherrifs soldiers) go and nick the poor peoples goods,and puts it in the sherrifs stores,the sherrif then gives a little of what has been stolen from the poor to the soldiers and then,get the gang to protect him from the peasants who may attack the nice sherrif.
Now this is a good business, everything to me is free,and others take all the risks,
years into the future,
some of these soldiers i wll call policemen,others i will call traffic wardens,others will call ????what is the sherrifs name? xxxxxxxxxx fill in the blanks yourself,.

[edit on 1-5-2010 by stmichael]

In Nottingham the "Shire Reeve" is now called the "sheriff". Get the story straight. And I would trust an elected official, by the people, a sheriff, more than I trust a hired gun, a security gaurd most people call the "Police". Police are NOTHING more than corporate security gaurds. You get fined, traffic tickets, because you use "State owned property" wrecklessly. I have to laugh at people who have no clue what the truth and the real deal is.

As the judges do not file their Oath of Office into their Court Room., thereby acting under Administrative Law-whatever they want it to be. The Laws passed since 1926 have all been signed by the President for- The British Accredited Regency (BAR) from the State of New York, making all laws come under the BAR, so they are nothing more that BAR codes, rules, regulations, statutes, procedures for the CORPORATIONS to follow. The only way you have of making the judge uphold his oath is to file it into the case and restrict him to the law that you want to follow.

There are seven demands for Discovery questions to ask all lawyers, attorneys, counselors, esquires:
(1) Please produce the legislative act and its implementing regulations that precipitated this cause.
(2) Please produce the legislative act that created the office of lawyer, attorney, counselor, esquire. Please give me the address of this office where I may go and get a License for Practicing Law.
(3) Please produce a copy of your Oath of Office as an Officer of the Court and where you filed it into Public Record
(4) Please produce the contract signed by Myself, Proper name of the living soul, and you (name of the lawyer), in which I agreed to give up My constitutional rights.
(5) Please give Me your name, address, and phone number.
(6) Please give Me your bond number and your bonding company.
(7) Please send to me an acknowledgment that you understand that you have perjured your oath of office and are committing Constructive Treason against the constitution of the united States of America, the
State of Texas and the American Peace Flag.

Again, from the Redemption Manual.

We are selling ourselves down the river, and TPTB are laughing all the way. Again, PROBLEM, REACTION AND THEN SOLUTION. TPTB are pulling the strings and most everyone is dancing to the tune.

Once more with gusto......WAKE THE HELL UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
It's amazing (ok not really) and upsetting to see ATS bow down to this oppressive bill.

"Oh it's to kick illegals out of the country."

Yeah, and to detain anyone who is suspected of being an illegal. Who carries actual proof they are a citizen of this country with them around? This bill is repulsive and vile and I'm disgusted so many ATS members support it.

I thought we were suppose dislike the idea of POLICE having too much power? Is the talk about Martial Law really BS made up by the conspiracy theorists? Well, this thread and many others is proving it to be just that. You talk about too much power authorities have and speak of "revolutions" but yet, you support such a new law. Awesome.

Thanks.

You nailed it, yes it is to kick the illegals out of The United States of

America and Arizona is part of the USA. If you want the illegals to stay

then pay for them to stay because Arizona and it's citizens are tired of

paying for their illegal stay. There are laws on the books about illegal aliens

entering are country illegally and our national security is at stake.

Anyone can come across the border illegally and jeopardize this nations

security. It just so happens the majority are Mexican that are illegally

entering our country I can not change the fact their Mexican can you?


Do you see the Mexican government trying to curtail the illegals

pouring into the USA? I do not think so because it is big business

and billions in the illegal drug trafficing and billions of dollars being

sent back to Mexico from illegal workers that are paid in cash that by

the way many are by-passing paying taxes in our country because

cash is hard to track. Racial profiling? Well I am sorry the majority of

illegal aliens are Mexican and not White can you change that fact?

^Y^


[edit on 1-5-2010 by amari]