Arizona has done the nation a favor.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


1. I am only a simple man. I say as I see it. Spare me your intellectual BS. Simplicity is best used in this forum to break down complex issues so that all may understand issues better.

2. Spare me too your ingenious labels of self righteousness, or whatever crap you want to call it to dismiss my arguments.

3. Black is black and white is white. Laws can be legislated if the political will is there and backed by the people. Businesses are not a 'people'. People direct businesses UNDER the law. And people are responsible for laws enacted.

For all your vitrol, you had evaded answering my question:- Is it legal to hire illegal immigrants? Are you afraid of the truth and make yourself a fool for the honest answer that will bring?

reply to post by Evisscerator


Look at yourself. YOU ARE already behaving as a Nazi, simply because you disagree with what I say, curtailing my right to the 1st amendment. Fortunately people of your kind are few.

Awake, my brother! Look at yourself in the mirror, I plead you!

Originally posted by RedskinWally
The bill not only effects Illegals but natives also. Not many natives have the documentation to really prove they are US citizens.
Either because they do not know where to get the documents or simply because they don't have a way to get them (i.e. transportation). The Navajo Nation is the biggest reservation in Arizona and the US altogether. I'm just wondering how many natives are going to be "accidently" deported for not having ID, SS cards, or any other form of US documentation.

Would you be happy if the bill was for anyone who might be Neo Nazi?

COMMENT: ARE YOU KIDDING!? Drivers's Licenses are carried by almost everyone. ID cards are available for all US Citizens of any age at the same place you get driver's license. American Indians have US ID cards, Tribe ID Cards, Driver's licenses, Passports, and Casino Owner IDs too.

COMMENT: At least Neo Nazis are US Citizens and have the right to speak their mind and offer alternative ideas, regardless of how bizarre they might be.

Citizens of other countries who just come here illegally, stay and take jobs are the problem. We did not invite you and we don't want you. Pack your bags and leave. You have no voice here and any politician who supports illegals are going to get removed.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

1. I am only a simple man. I say as I see it. Spare me your intellectual BS. Simplicity is best used in this forum to break down complex issues so that all may understand issues better.

Complex issues are unlikely to be broken down into simplicity by simpletons.

Black is black and white is white. Laws can be legislated if the political will is there and backed by the people. Businesses are not a 'people'. People direct businesses UNDER the law. And people are responsible for laws enacted.

All legislation must conform to the Constitution and constitutions that authorized that authority of legislation to begin with. Laws are not legislated through the will of the people, even if legislatures pretend this is so, laws are laws and either legislation conforms to law or it does not, and that is the simple black and white of it.

For all your vitrol, you had evaded answering my question:- Is it legal to hire illegal immigrants?

I have not evaded anything and told you flat out that any legislation that would criminalize and employer for hiring a so called "illegal" immigrant is dubious legislation and would have a tough time holding any constitutional muster. If it is a crime to hire an illegal immigrant then surely it is a crime to allow them to cross the border with no efforts made to prevent it. It is hardly law that once a person is here, those who do business with that person are criminals. All law regarding the rights of people must show a victim. Simply asserting that one who hires an illegal immigrant is a criminal, fails to provide a victim and as such is not law but merely legislation, and as such easily challenged in a court of law.

Are you afraid of the truth and make yourself a fool for the honest answer that will bring?

Afraid of the truth? I have presented that truth. Law is law and no amount of legislation can change that.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Lawyers are often disliked and I can see why. Rather than to pursue an endless debate with you and your continued evasion by giving me indirect answers, then let me put it to you, keeping it simple:-

In your view, it is legal to hire a known illegal, because

a. There are no provisions in the Constitution that says it cannot be done.
b. as such, those who do business with illegal immigrants are NOT criminals.
c. The employers are not criminals because there are no victims.

Another view of yours " Laws are not legislated through the will of the people"

I am afraid I am not dealing with a simpleton. This is ignorance of the highest level and no where can I ever, in my stupidest moment reach such atmospheric heights and best leave you to your delusions. Pointless to continue on when even the basics are not there.

Cheers

Originally posted by drwizardphd

You see, the Arizona legislation violates the Constitution.

It infringes upon the rights of Arizona's citizens. (Note: not the rights of the illegals, that's another discussion altogether.)

Basically it requires Arizona's citizens to carry identification that proves citizenship, or face potential arrest. Simply put, it is your right as an American citizen to simply be in public without ID. Under the context of the Arizona law, that right has effectively been nullified.

I have to display my ID badge at all times, so does everyone else as at work. Where is the ACLU decrying this injustice? I don't see them rushing to my defense and no one can mistake me for a white dude, believe me.

If I can have multiple immunizations, fingerprints at various federal agencies, background checks and now the new "biometrics" maybe the guy hanging out at the home depot parking lot can at least carry an ID.

Is this too much to ask? I don't know maybe it is.

Most of you wouldn't be American without your descendants having immigrated.
As an Arizonan..the State was already in a disaster as far as state budgets and now--just a few instances--- $6 million loss to the convention industry from cancellations so far, $2 million from airline revenues, 10 million from tourist industry, Arizona Ice-T and Arizona Jeans company--both not based in Arizona-will suffer losses -as well as many many others...
If only it were true to totally ban AZ..then we could keep all of our water, our electricity or sell it to someone else.
Soon you will all be asked for your papers.. Jan Brewer is a F*!knut....An embarrassing partisan hack

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Lawyers are often disliked and I can see why.

I am not a lawyer, this is yet just one more example of your willingness to presume. Arrogance is the presumption of knowledge.

Rather than to pursue an endless debate with you and your continued evasion by giving me indirect answers, then let me put it to you, keeping it simple:-

Your question has been answered and not evaded. If you don't like the answer this is your problem.

In your view, it is legal to hire a known illegal, because

This is a loaded question that presumes all illegal immigrants are hired knowingly. All that follows is nonsense. All law regarding government is predicated on rights, and when those rights have been abrogated or derogated the law is there to guide how justice may be put back in.

Another view of yours " Laws are not legislated through the will of the people"

This is not my view at all, and my view regarding law is irrelevant, what matters is the truth. If legislation reflects the law, then it is proper and just legislation, if it does not reflect the law, it is not law, but merely legislation. The will of the people can not override the rights of the people.

I am afraid I am not dealing with a simpleton.

Your fears notwithstanding, you are correct, you are not dealing with a simpleton.

This is ignorance of the highest level and no where can I ever, in my stupidest moment reach such atmospheric heights and best leave you to your delusions. Pointless to continue on when even the basics are not there.

Who are you addressing with this remark? It seems as if you are talking to yourself.

Cheers.

reply to post by tungus


The issue goes deeper than 'just carry your ID'.

Anyone knows an ID can be faked easily. Anyone can simply carry an ID. No problem.

The issue is the POWERS that is given to the GESTAPO, to check on anyone, anytime, anywhere, documents of which must satisfy the officer, of his whim, checking on you, or you can be held for further questioning if he is not satisfied, with no limit to the number of times he wants to check on you, any minute, any hour, any day.

If this is not harrasment of the highest order to a citizen who have a right to quiet enjoyment in life, who may not look any different from the multi-racial makeup of USA with the illegal immigrants from ALL over the world, then I do not know what else is.

And such POWERS, if in perfect man, would be no problem. Problem is, mortal man is not perfect but flawed.

Has not the unchecked pursuit of wealth through greed that caused this financial crisis, as well as the abuse of powers by animals throughout history taught us nothing???

No. A system of check and balances must be in place to debate and ensure such powers are not freely given to mortal man or insidiously tricked from base fellows and given away by the common masses.

Or else, the slippery road to serfdom and slavery leads.



[edit on 2-5-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
The issue is the POWERS that is given to the GESTAPO, to check on anyone, anytime, anywhere, documents of which must satisfy the officer, of his whim, checking on you, or you can be held for further questioning if he is not satisfied, with no limit to the number of times he wants to check on you, any minute, any hour, any day.

Maybe you can tell that to the officer who got shot at with AK-47 the other day. They also shot at the police helicopter, or as you may call it the gestapo helicopter.

3 held in Pinal deputy's shooting

Many of those who feel so violated if asked for "papers" do not have to risk their lives on a daily basis or don't know anyone who lost their life, all they see is the horrible human right violation if someone is asked for an ID.

One person said, after the passing of the 1070 that this might be their last chance of speaking Spanish! The bill doesn't even address that! I wish it did...

reply to post by tungus


My condolences to the families involved. May investigations proceed with haste, to find the culprits, the motivation and the causes so that such crimes can be avoided in future.

Sure, blame everything to illegal immigrants. Everyone who commits a crime is an illegal immigrant. Citizens do not commit crimes. They do not steal or rob or murder. Crime had never been a problem in the USA till the immigrants came along. It's only the wetbacks.

After finishing with them, and there's still crime, lets blame the blacks, jews and chinese. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the newer white immigrants. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the democrats. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the republicans. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the right wingers then the left wingers, then the moderates.

If still does not solve the problem, lets blame each other.
They are all evil. Get rid of them and US will be a paradise on Earth.

( if you think asking for IDs is going to stop murders or drug related problems, do enjoy living in your fantasy world)

[edit on 2-5-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Sure, blame everything to illegal immigrants. Everyone who commits a crime is an illegal immigrant. Citizens do not commit crimes. They do not steal or rob or murder. Crime had never been a problem in the USA till the immigrants came along. It's only the wetbacks.

After finishing with them, and there's still crime, lets blame the blacks, jews and chinese. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the newer white immigrants. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the democrats. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the republicans. If still does not solve the problem, lets blame the right wingers then the left wingers, then the moderates.

I think what you've done here is to create a straw man argument. At the very least, it is in your mind only, because nowhere did I see anyone else say that only illegals commit crimes.

There's no need for that kind of dishonesty.

reply to SeekerofTruth

So...is it also fascist and evil when a police officer has you pulled over for a traffic stop (i.e. under suspicion of having committed a crime just like being in the Country unlawfully) and the officer requests that you provide identification, proof that you own the vehicle, and proof that you have insurance?

Originally posted by jaffo
reply to SeekerofTruth

So...is it also fascist and evil when a police officer has you pulled over for a traffic stop (i.e. under suspicion of having committed a crime just like being in the Country unlawfully) and the officer requests that you provide identification, proof that you own the vehicle, and proof that you have insurance?

Proof of ownership would be a bill of sale, and if this person you described has registered the vehicle with the DMV, then he has no proof of ownership and only a title of registration that was given by the DMV in exchange for the bill of sale. It is this contract between the DMV and person driving the vehicle that has allowed proof of insurance laws to stand as constitutional. Technically speaking, the DMV owns the vehicle and merely allows the person who has registered that vehicle to drive it, contingent upon the rules of the contract.

The assertion DMV's make that;"driving is a privilege and not a right" is false. People have the right to go into agreement with this false assumption, but yes, that sort of assertion is a fascist one whereby rights are granted and not inalienable, and have little to do with the Constitutional principles of the United States.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

Arizona may have, indeed, done a favor for the other border states. I am dismayed by Rick Perry's silence since this story has broken. This will separate the politicians from the sincere.

There are 2 points being made over and over.
1. That employers are at the root of the influx of illegal aliens. While I don't disagree that they are in play, what is a greater draw than individual employers is our policy of allowing illegals to take advantage of emergency rooms free of charge (can a US citizen do that? No. Why are we giving a privilege to an illegal alien that we do not, ourselves, have?), welfare, etc. Finding work with an employer who will hire illegals is a finite situation. At some point, they would give up & go home.
It is our governments' policies which offer them a guarantee of support and that is infinite. All they have to do is have a child here. They can collect those benefits while engaging in criminal activity and lolling on the streets/ Home Depot parking lots looking for work.

2. There is this threat to "boycott" Arizona. Really?. What about the economic hit the border states take from people moving away (driven away from the violence) and avoiding/ not even considering those destinations? We used to go to Brownsville regularly. Less than when my grandparents- who lived in Harlingen, were alive, but still at least every couple of years. We haven't been to Padre Island/ Matamoros in 4 or 5 years. And we aren't planning to go anytime in the future.
I cringe everytime my husband has a claim in Eagle Pass or Del Rio. (or on the West Side of town after noon, for that matter)
If this is not the way "invasions" take place, then I don't know what is. How is this different from the Israeli settlers encroaching on Palestinian territories?
The same is true of the Southwest in general. A trip is planned for 4 high school girlfriends to drive from Texas to visit another of our group in Southern California. We are liable to take a more northerly route or, if things get worse, not go at all and fly her here. (Mexico is bound to be losing a LOT of money via tourism lost, but interestingly- they don't seem to care)
What about the loss businesses & neighborhoods take from people avoiding them & going elsewhere to "safer", more comfortable locations? (which turns the problem into a cancer because the illegals just move on to another area)

This is a very hard thing to think on and come up with a reasonable solution. Yes we do have a problem with illegal immigration, but what was this country founded upon.

The poem say's it best.

The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

www.libertystatepark.com...

As far as I am concerned, besides the Native Americans, north and south, everyone else is the immigrant. Somewhere along the way we have forgotten that. People have put it in our minds that we own land. In truth we own nothing except the natural contract to live and die.



[edit on 2-5-2010 by Conclusion]

reply to post by Conclusion


Well spoken my brother, and your point should be taken in this effort to find a reasonable way to deal with the problem of an influx of immigration not conducive a thriving nation.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I agree totally. I know that I am not qualified to make any sort of decision that would affect any other man or woman. Sometimes the right thing is hard to do, but right and wrong is another debate entirely.

Originally posted by Evisscerator
Your ignorance of Constitutional Law is obvious. US Citizens have their papers on them (drivers license, social security card, bank cards, other forms of ID).

Your ignorance of reality is obvious. I do not have any ID on me right now. Constitutional law does not require me to carry any "papers" on me at all. Not only is it sad you would say that but then get a star for claiming I do not know constitutional law because US citizens always have to have papers on them?

WHAT???????

Show me this law.

An illegal won't have any of these. Get real. If a cop stops me and asks me for my proof of insurance and registration, I have it to provide to him. He also gets my drivers license which proves I am a Texan, an American and have the right to be here.

Really, so if you are walking to the market, you have to provide a license and proof of insurance and registration? What do you insure and register to have to walk around in Texas?

Originally posted by mishigas
Nothing. Nothing at all. And it is inevitable that some citizens will be stopped on occasion. But it should only affect you once, since after that, you will know what papers keep you moving on down the road.

Huh? How does that work out exactly? I know now what I need to keep on moving down the road. Unfortunately there are a couple big holes in your theory.

Carrying my birth certificate will not prevent police from stopping me to ask for it. Sorry but as a legal natural born US citizen, that is against my 4th ammendment rights and I am not willing to sell out my constitutional rights so that some people can feel like they are doing something that actually has no real impact on the problem and even less so if applied in the manner its main defenders insist it will be.

There is also the fact that being stopped and asked for my papers will not make me just want to be more prepared for the next however many times they want to stop me and ask for them. That is not how my America works.

There are countries on earth were you can have your passport and other papers on you and still be thrown into jail on a whim. We are not one of them, nor is this law a step in that direction.

There are places where women are raped with machettes too. Are you saying all we have to do is be better than the worst?