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Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

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posted on May, 25 2010 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by FoosM
 



So are you now saying that the LM during descent and ascent was not pressurized?


No. What did I say that would give you that impression?




posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by Tomblvd

Originally posted by FoosM



Again who cares if Stalin knew or what claimed he knew.


Because it proves the claim by Ralph Rene of some sort of secret "Apollo Simulation Program" was fake, becuase it would be impossible for something that large to still be secret after all these years.
----------
Wasnt Kaysing a whistleblower?


All you have shown is that Stalin had good spies.
You did not show that the Manhattan project was not kept a secret.

Was there a whistleblower?
Did anybody go to the media?
No.

The people involved kept it a secret, regardless if a spy happened to have figured out what was going on.

Do the American public use spies to gain information on their own government?
In other words, they had no idea, did they? And neither did the Japanese, the target.
And wasn't Canada and the UK involved as well?
That would mean spread across three countries the public didnt know.
Thats a lot of people not knowing what is going on.





It was still a secret wasn't it?


No. Not even close.
-------
Well why didnt Japan stop the attack?



Did the American people know?


Yea, about a month after Nagasaki.
-----
So even after the bomb went off you are saying it took a month to find out?
You are very confusing. Either the American public knew what was going on or they didnt. It happened on their own backyard.


Let me ask you this question:


Is the US currently keeping secret projects from the American public? If so, do you know how big those projects are and how many people are involved? And if you dont know, why dont you know?



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM
 



So are you now saying that the LM during descent and ascent was not pressurized?


No. What did I say that would give you that impression?

----



I said that sometimes you could hear a "thump" from the attitude control jets. This was in the CSM when the module was pressurized.


would you say that the shuttle in LEO is also in the vacuum of space?



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by FoosM
 



would you say that the shuttle in LEO is also in the vacuum of space?


Yes, O Socrates, the shuttle in low earth orbit is indeed in the vacuum of space.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by FoosM

Wasnt Kaysing a whistleblower?


No, he was a liar. He had zero proof.



All you have shown is that Stalin had good spies.
You did not show that the Manhattan project was not kept a secret.


You mean other than the fact that other people, aside from those in the program, knew about it?

Shall I look up the definition of "secret" for your?



Was there a whistleblower?
Did anybody go to the media?
No.

The people involved kept it a secret, regardless if a spy happened to have figured out what was going on.

Do the American public use spies to gain information on their own government?
In other words, they had no idea, did they? And neither did the Japanese, the target.
And wasn't Canada and the UK involved as well?
That would mean spread across three countries the public didnt know.
Thats a lot of people not knowing what is going on.


You are, as usual, trying to confuse the issue. I am talking about keeping the Manhattan project secret for 40 years after it occurred. Nobody in their right mind thinks that it could have been kept a secret that long, considering the fact the Soviets were essentially monitoring it in real time. Thousands of people were working on aspects of "the gadget" in at least a dozen places across the country, and they only discovered what they were working on when the bombing of Hiroshima was announced. You are somehow assuming all those people would have kept quiet.

That is, of course, nonsense.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 10:36 AM
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From this article less than 2 weeks after the fire, it was deemed likely by nasa to be 'unsolvable' Wow, that's a pretty quick judgement isn't it.

"http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CtseAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zGUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4765,2563078&dq"

(I don't know how to paste long links, so just copy the URL between the quotes)


Originally posted by FoosM

Originally posted by theability
Apollo I was an engineering nightmare. What I mean is no one could tell you what instrumentation was installed and to what specifications they were held to, or the weights of them!

All in all, without Apollo I, there would not have been a succesful moon landing.



Please elaborate.
How did the fire help solve their issues?
Did they solve what caused the fire in the first place?
How did they build the next one differently?



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by ppk55
 


Here ya go, here's your linky dinky:

Apollo Fire Mystery May Be Unsolvable.

(Of course, it's from way back on 7 February, 1967. Only 11 days after the tragedy...rather early in the investigations to be making such a claim, hmmmm?)





[edit on 25 May 2010 by weedwhacker]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM
 



would you say that the shuttle in LEO is also in the vacuum of space?


Yes, O Socrates, the shuttle in low earth orbit is indeed in the vacuum of space.




From Joseph P. Allen's book Entering Space where he describes the shuttle thrusters:


"The forward primary thrusters sound like exploding cannons at thrust onset; and during their firing, jets of flame shoot out from the orbiter's nose. ...The orbiter reacts to the primaries' shove by shaking slightly and moving very noticeably. For the crew on board, a series of attitude changes using primaries resembles a World War I sea battle, with cannons and mortars firing, flashes of flame shooting in all directions, and the ship's shuddering and shaking in reaction to the salvos."


Does this sound to you like a quiet & calm ride?

Is it true that the shuttle's thrusters produce under 900 pounds of thrust?
If so what would 3000 pounds of thrust sound and feel like? And take into consideration that the ascent engine was mounted inside the cabin only inches away from the astronauts




JOSEPH P. ALLEN, Ph.D.

Joseph P. "Joe" Allen, Ph.D. has made numerous contributions to the world of space, from both the government and private sector perspectives. After being selected by NASA as a scientist-astronaut in 1967, Allen served as mission controller for two Apollo missions and the inaugural flight of the Space Shuttle program - STS-1/Columbia. He later blasted into space on two different missions. During his NASA career, he also served Assistant Administrator for Legislative Affairs at headquarters in Washington D.C. and as Director of Astronaut Training and Operations at the Johnson Space Center.


www.thespaceagency.org...


By the way, was the ascent engine of the LM gimbaled? Was the Descent engine?

[edit on 25-5-2010 by FoosM]



[edit on 25-5-2010 by FoosM]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by Tomblvd

Originally posted by FoosM

Wasnt Kaysing a whistleblower?


No, he was a liar. He had zero proof.

-----
Wasnt he the proof himself?
And calling him names does not make him of a whistleblower.


You are, as usual, trying to confuse the issue. I am talking about keeping the Manhattan project secret for 40 years after it occurred.


Talking about confusing the issue and changing goal posts again...
Why would they keep that a secret after having successfully bombing their targets?
That makes no sense. They had nothing to loose.

Thats different too keeping Apollo a secret.

Where NASA the US GOV, Astronauts, science in general, US citizens all have something to loose. Obviously they will keep that a secret as long as possible.

Tell me, when did you learn about
Project Corona?
Project MoL?

Just to let other people know, the Corona project was from June 1959 until May 1972. And Corona was officially secret until 1992. So from it ending in 72 to it becoming declassified that took 20 years!



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by ppk55
From this article less than 2 weeks after the fire, it was deemed likely by nasa to be 'unsolvable' Wow, that's a pretty quick judgement isn't it.

"http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CtseAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zGUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4765,2563078&dq"



'Turn around, go home, nothing to see.'

'We dont know what caused the fire, but we are sure that it wont happen again.'
LOL, how the hell does that make any sense?



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by FoosM
 


I assume you remain confused by the fact that some thrusting devices make noise that can be heard from inside the spacecraft?

Since you've now flipped to discussing the Space Shuttle, in a thread about Apollo, let's remain there for a moment....

Here is the personal account by Astronaut Mike Mullane, in his book titled RIDING ROCKETS. He was one of the 'TFNG's selected by NASA for the upcoming Shuttle Program; selected back in 1977. ('TFNG' was an acronym for "Thirty-Five New Guys". It did include, though, five women....Sally Ride of course, and Judy Resnick...JR later to die in the Challenger disaster). BTW, some ATS'ers may recognize an alternate (and rather off-color) meaning to the letters "FNG"...but leaving that aside for now....

Mike Mullane flew as a rookie on STS-41D, launched after many heart-wrencing delays on August 30, 1984.

Regarding the sounds, and vibrations:

The first approximately two and a half minutes, while the SRBs burn (Solid Rocket Boosters) it is VERY rough, lots of vibration and noise. WHen they burn out, and are jettisoned ---

"The sudden loss of 6 million pounds of thrust accompanied by dead silence caught me by surprise. Had all three SSMEs also shut down?

I leaned to my left and stared at the engine status lights and for several heartbeats I expected to see them illuminate in a deadly red glow. But the lights remained off, the radios quiet.

...Apparently I had been asleep in training when somebody had described the SRB separation and the quiet, velvet smoothness that followed....

...Discovery had put most of the atmosphere behind her. There was no air to grip the machine, or rattle us with shock waves. And the SSMEs were as finely tuned as a Rolex. They continued to deliver nearly 1.5 million pounds of thrust 100 feet behind our backs without a whisper of noise or ripple of vibration."

I highly recommend this book...Mike is quite witty, and has a great sense of humor. A wicked, somewhat politically incorrect sense of humor at times, in that he is a dyed in the wool chauvinist! (But, he learned, eventually).

Anyway, jumping ahead to continuing to orbit:

"MECO was silent. The Gs just stopped. I had no sense of being hurled forward as some space movies depict. There was no thud, thunk, bang, or any other noise as the termination of acceleration. In a blink we went from a silent 3-Gs to a silent 0-G."

At this point, they have to jettison the External Tank...

"There was a heavy thunk as the ET was exploded away to continue toward a Pacific grave. Hank moved his translational hand controller to the up position, and the thruster in the nose and tail fired to clear us of the tumblilng mass. The nose jets, merely a few yards forward of the windows, hammered the cockpit as if howitzers were firing next to us."

So, yes...the attitude thrusters DID resound on the airframe structure of the Orbiter...but, so? EVERY mechanism has a different characteristic, as it produces thrust, because of different designs.

The engines on the Apollo LM had unique sounds and vibration patterns, too, I expect each (ascent and descent) were different. BUT they certainly weren't so loud as to make communications impossible.







[edit on 25 May 2010 by weedwhacker]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by ppk55
 


Here you go the NASA documents that go over the fire evaluation from the Plugs out test to the Apollo I commitee findings to Apollo 7 launch and beyond!

Apollo I

Its rather simple if you read about it. The ECS unit had TWO FIRES in 1966 and is document on that webpage if you use the GO BACK BUTTON.

Plus if you read the investigation finds that out and suggests that it may be responsible.

Anyway reading is wonderful thing!



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 03:35 PM
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I am puzzled at the lack of reading material ON ATS.

Seriously if you want to find knowledge you have to digest it some how, reading is obviously the best form that is out there.

I have seen people post material ( I have been guilty of this too) that don't read what they post if they had, they wouldn't post it at all!

Now you can find a gazillion pages on Apollo I fire research by typing it in a search engine. Now don't stop there you have to go READ!

Seriously its not hard!



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by FoosM

Talking about confusing the issue and changing goal posts again...
Why would they keep that a secret after having successfully bombing their targets?
That makes no sense. They had nothing to loose.


I can't believe I have to explain this. The point I am making is that, considering all the people involved, and the complete penetration of it by Soviet agents, there is no way the Manhattan Project would have remained a secret for an prolonged time period after the war.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?



Tell me, when did you learn about
Project Corona?
Project MoL?

Just to let other people know, the Corona project was from June 1959 until May 1972. And Corona was officially secret until 1992. So from it ending in 72 to it becoming declassified that took 20 years!


Oh, "officially secret"? People watched Corona launches from V-berg for years and it was fairly easy to watch them go over on an clear nite once they were up. The "offical" story was a secret, but they weren't a true secret.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker

"There was a heavy thunk as the ET was exploded away to continue toward a Pacific grave. Hank moved his translational hand controller to the up position, and the thruster in the nose and tail fired to clear us of the tumblilng mass. The nose jets, merely a few yards forward of the windows, hammered the cockpit as if howitzers were firing next to us."

So, yes...the attitude thrusters DID resound on the airframe structure of the Orbiter...but, so? EVERY mechanism has a different characteristic, as it produces thrust, because of different designs.

The engines on the Apollo LM had unique sounds and vibration patterns, too, I expect each (ascent and descent) were different. BUT they certainly weren't so loud as to make communications impossible.



I dont think anyone said 'so loud as to make communications possible.' I think its more like, why didnt we hear any sound of the engines, either from Saturn or the LM, or even vibration in the astros voices. This is the issue.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by Tomblvd

Just to let other people know, the Corona project was from June 1959 until May 1972. And Corona was officially secret until 1992. So from it ending in 72 to it becoming declassified that took 20 years!


Oh, "officially secret"? People watched Corona launches from V-berg for years and it was fairly easy to watch them go over on an clear nite once they were up. The "offical" story was a secret, but they weren't a true secret.

Rolls eyes... I think that was the intention, hidden in plain sight.

Just like Apollo was a cover for MOL



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by FoosM
 



...or even vibration in the astros voices. This is the issue.


On Apollo, thre WERE cases of extreme vibrations. With the Saturn V stack...they referred to it as "pogo" oscillations. Likely an effect OF the design of the vehicle, and its components, and the effects of the atmosphere too.

You will hear it, in recordings during early launch...until they were on the third stage, and things began to smooth.

By contrast, the LM descent and ascent engines were quite smooth, comparable to the Shuttle's SSMEs today. (Different fuels, of course...) but point is, once in vacuum, there's no air for the engine thrust forces to affect, which is the leading cause of vibrations in spacecraft. At least, when concerning the big main engines.

Sounds, of course, heard INSIDE a pressurized cabin would be transmitted physically through the components...fluids flow, create turbulence...valves move, etc.

As I've said, Hollywood has done a terrible disservice to reality...but the audience WANTS to hear the StarShip go "Whoosh" as it speeds by, and the phasers to go "zzzzzttttt", and when things bolw up? They expect to hear THAT, too...or else they aren't satisfied.

A REAL "space battle" would seem terribly boring to observe, IF one ever existed.....Popular Science Fiction films and TV don't usually get much of the physics correct, either....



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by FoosM


I dont think anyone said 'so loud as to make communications possible.' I think its more like, why didnt we hear any sound of the engines, either from Saturn or the LM, or even vibration in the astros voices. This is the issue.


The microphones were specifically designed to eliminate ambient noise. They were placed so close to the mouth that they were nicknames "tonsil mics". Extensive testing was done in order to determine how to eliminate extraneous noise and still allow unimpeded comms.


Channel Design Considerations
The significant design considerations were in the areas of voice processing (VOX, preemphasis, and clipping), filtering, and squelch. Generally, the pre modulation voice processing in the spacecraft consisted of VOX or PTT circuits to eliminate background noise and to key certain transmitters; AVC amplifiers to ensure sufficient modulating levels and to prevent circuit over loads that could cause uncontrolled distortion;


***snip****

The objective was to meet the 14-decibel rms/rms and 4-decibel SNR requirements for 90- and 70-percent word intelligibility at the maximum required ranges. Clipping does increase the intelligibility
under marginal rf Signal conditions.

****snip****

The original c lipping levels for the CSM and LM vhf transmitters were greater
than 40 decibels. With this heavy clipping and the on/off carrier modulation technique, cabin noise as much as 40 decibels less than the normal audio levels could modulate the carrier 100 percent, resulting in a O-decibel signal-to-interword noise ratio. The primary solution to this problem was to reduce the clipping level to approximately 24 decibels . However, before this solution was found, considerable effort was expended on improving the noise-cancellation characteristics of the microphones and on exploring
means of suppressing the cabin noise on the audio-center input lines.


history.nasa.gov...



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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Claim #5

In Moonfaker Exhibit C Part 2 as seen below, Jarrah White points out a claim by Ralph Rene that the oxygen tank explosion during the Apollo 13 mission did minor damage to the spacecraft. Rene claims that if the missions were real the oxygen tank explosion would have done major damage to the craft.


The video includes two oxygen tank explosion examples. I didn't find them, but did find a similar video as follows:


The oxygen tank was design as follows:



While it would seem pretty stupid to put an electric motor inside of a liquid oxygen tank, I'm not engineer. But then again it did explode.

Astronaut Jim Lovell stated, regarding the damage, "There's one whole side of that spacecraft missing". NASA stated "The explosion ruptured a line or damaged a valve in the no. 1 oxygen tank, causing it to lose oxygen rapidly. The service module bay no.4 cover was blown off. All oxygen stores were lost within about 3 hours, along with loss of water, electrical power, and use of the propulsion system. ".
Source: nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov...

So, there is a disparity between what NASA claims, which seems to be that the damage was major, vs. what Ralph Rene claimed which is that the damage was not major.

It should be possible to get a very general idea of how much damage could have been expected by finding out what the pressure level and size of the tank was at the time of the explosion. However, I don't see how anyone could make any definite statements without reconstructing an Apollo 13 craft, putting it inside a vacuum, then exploding the tank at the same pressure. If there is a way beyond that to have any level of confidence I'd be surprised. Therefore, I view this evidence by Ralph Rene as inconclusive.

Edited for clarity

[edit on 25-5-2010 by truthquest]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by truthquest
 

Commercial oxygen tanks have a maximum pressure rating in the neighborhood of 2,200psig. Just before the failure of the tank on Apollo 13 the pressure sensor pegged at 1,008psia (993psig). Apples and oranges.

The exact failure mode of the tank is unknown but the damage was substantial.
www.phys.ncku.edu.tw...

The hypothesis is nothing but weak speculation.

history.nasa.gov...


[edit on 5/25/2010 by Phage]



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