Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

Once a person has been convinced / convicted / holds the conviction with an idea it is impossible to reason with them. The Apollo defenders hold the conviction that the Apollo moon landings were real. They adhere to dogma. They will not listen to reason. The Apollo defenders (so called because they are defending a faith in NASA) have a sort of desperation about them that is almost palpable.

Well said, except that this applies doubly to the Jarrah defenders. No matter how many times Jarrah has been shown to be wrong, they continue to believe everything he says. I am completely open to any actual evidence you or anyone else can present; right now, you all seem to think the only evidence you have is that Phil Plait, who had nothing to do with the historical events, was lying on a late night radio talk show. Is that all you have?

The more I study Jarrah White and Phil Plait the more I am convinced that both of them truly believe in what they are saying is true. I am not personally willing to go out and say that either of them are consciously fabricating untruths and propagating them with a willful intent to deceive people. I am willing to accept that Jarrah and Plait both are telling the truth as they know it. And I don't know how to put it any other way

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

The more I study Jarrah White and Phil Plait the more I am convinced that both of them truly believe in what they are saying is true. I am not personally willing to go out and say that either of them are consciously fabricating untruths and propagating them with a willful intent to deceive people. I am willing to accept that Jarrah and Plait both are telling the truth as they know it. And I don't know how to put it any other way

I will accept your statement of non-alignment at face value. You are welcome to question the historical record and to form your own opinions of anyone you wish.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

Shall we quote Phil Plait as mercilessly as the Apollo defenders quote Jarrah? Black, I think that's your job in this thread! Check it out startalkradio.net...

Link wouldn't work for me...
But it seems obvious Phil Plait is in the debate for ONE reason, $$$$$$'s...

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


well, the thread is 400 pages long already. I'm guessing it's the same stuff I read here 5 years ago

do the fakers have an answer for big muley ?

Originally posted by FoosM
Prior to Apollo 8, NASA would have to have done all the research on the radiation dangers of the VABs, outer space, and the moon.

Now over 40 years all this information should be public knowledge.
So with all that information, somebody here should be able to conclusively put together an argument conclusively proving that radiation would not be the reason for not sending and landing men on the moon in the '60s & '70s.

Find NASA documents prior to Apollo 8 for the following:
Identify the types and intensity of VAB belts radiation that would be encountered.
Identity the types and intensity of radiation encountered in interstellar space.
Identity the types and intensity of radiation encountered on the Moon.

What type of shielding would be necessary to block each radiation type?
The minimum thickness needed to be used to protect the inhabitants and machinery in the cabin of the ship in Space and on the Moon, an EVA on the moon, and during a deep space EVA.

The maximum time needed to travel through the belts without any damage to the spacefarers.
The flight path of the craft through the belts and the time that it would take.

Strong Case:
Compare that to information to the results provided by the Apollo program and see if Apollo met those requirements. This should be easy to find in all those NASA documents.

Great Case:
If you can include third party support for NASA's research findings.

So far nobody has taken up the challenge.
And I don't blame them.
Here is the thing, because of the Nuclear Energy Industry, and possibly other industries like medical,
facts about radiation is confusing.

In the early days of nuclear power, WHO issued forthright statements on radiation risks such as its 1956 warning: "Genetic heritage is the most precious property for human beings. It determines the lives of our progeny, health and harmonious development of future generations. As experts, we affirm that the health of future generations is threatened by increasing development of the atomic industry and sources of radiation … We also believe that new mutations that occur in humans are harmful to them and their offspring."

After 1959, WHO made no more statements on health and radioactivity. What happened? On 28 May 1959, at the 12th World Health Assembly, WHO drew up an agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA); clause 12.40 of this agreement says: "Whenever either organisation (the WHO or the IAEA) proposes to initiate a programme or activity on a subject in which the other organisation has or may have a substantial interest, the first party shall consult the other with a view to adjusting the matter by mutual agreement." In other words, the WHO grants the right of prior approval over any research it might undertake or report on to the IAEA – a group that many people, including journalists, think is a neutral watchdog, but which is, in fact, an advocate for the nuclear power industry. The IAEA's founding papers state: "The agency shall seek to accelerate and enlarge the contribution of atomic energy to peace, health and prosperity through the world."

"There are many kinds of radiation", he says, but he does not mention how they differ. In fact, external sources like cosmic rays and x-rays distribute their energy evenly, like the sun; others, notably alpha-emitters like uranium, are extremely uneven in the way they irradiate body tissue once they have been inhaled or swallowed.

Because alpha particles emitted from uranium atoms are relatively massive, they slow down rapidly, concentrating all their energy into a minuscule volume of tissue. Applying the sievert to this pinpoint of internal radiation means conceptualising it as a dose to the whole body. It's an averaging error, like believing it makes no difference whether you sit by the fire to warm yourself or eat a burning coal. The scale of the error can be huge.

Radiation protection officials fell into this averaging trap in 1941. The Manhattan Project, rushing to build the atom bomb, was creating many new radio-elements whose health effects were unknown. Summing them all – external and internal, alpha, beta, gamma or whatever – into a single dose quantity gave an impression of certainty and precision. Post war, the US National Council on Radiation Protection closed down its internal exposure committee because it took the complexities too seriously. From then on radiation effects were estimated from acute external radiation at Hiroshima and Nagasaki – studies which are entirely silent on internal radioactivity

www.guardian.co.uk...
www.guardian.co.uk...

reply to post by FoosM

So far nobody has taken up the challenge.

Excuse me, but I posted a link to all the relevant documents. Do you really expect me to do all the work for? Tell you what, if I present the "Strong Case," will you agree that the radiation argument is settled, and promise never to bring it up again?

reply to post by syrinx high priest

well, the thread is 400 pages long already. I'm guessing it's the same stuff I read here 5 years ago

do the fakers have an answer for big muley ?

This thread is slightly less than a year old. If you go back and read it, you would discover that "Old Muley" was brought back in a duffel bag.

reply to post by FoosM


I AM sorry...."FOOS".....but could you enlighten and explain, PLEASE.....how any references to NUCLEAR ENRGRGY power plants has ANYTHING to do with the Apollo missions?????

I mean......how silly has it become, now?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by syrinx high priest

 

well, the thread is 400 pages long already. I'm guessing it's the same stuff I read here 5 years ago

do the fakers have an answer for big muley ?

This thread is slightly less than a year old. If you go back and read it, you would discover that "Old Muley" was brought back in a duffel bag.

edit on 23-4-2011 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)

sorry, don't have the time to go through 400 pages.

can you eloborate on your comment ? I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or what. The operative word is big in big muley, btw which is what makes it a significant point in the discussion.

reply to post by syrinx high priest

sorry, don't have the time to go through 400 pages.

can you eloborate on your comment ? I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or what. The operative word is big in big muley, btw which is what makes it a significant point in the discussion.

I suggest you go back and start reading here.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM

 

So far nobody has taken up the challenge.

Excuse me, but I posted a link to all the relevant documents. Do you really expect me to do all the work for? Tell you what, if I present the "Strong Case," will you agree that the radiation argument is settled, and promise never to bring it up again?

I will state that you made a strong case.
But lets see you make one first.
Just as CHRLZ never came back to post his document on RADIATION.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by syrinx high priest

 

sorry, don't have the time to go through 400 pages.

can you eloborate on your comment ? I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or what. The operative word is big in big muley, btw which is what makes it a significant point in the discussion.

I suggest you go back and start reading here.

If you want to make a suggestion, why not begin with the post that starts the discussion on Big Muley and the other rock sample issues that sparked some legendary debate.

Thats starts here:
Big Muley

Follow up post here:
Pound 4 Pound

Many questions were brought up, many questions were left unanswered.

I am curious if JW will touch upon any of the issues that I brought up in those two posts and the replies that followed. We should be seeing his new series on rocks some time this week I suspect

reply to post by FoosM


Nope.

Many questions were brought up, many questions were left unanswered.

Nope.

As I recall, only "questions" raised were due to misunderstanding of the technical details of Apollo....as to the actual space available to carry the sample containers.

More than enough room onboard. Some people, though, who wish to "question" these facts do so out of ignorance, and apparently an inability to judge spatial relationships in three dimensions.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by FoosM

 

Nope.

Many questions were brought up, many questions were left unanswered.

Nope.

As I recall, only "questions" raised were due to misunderstanding of the technical details of Apollo....as to the actual space available to carry the sample containers.

More than enough room onboard. Some people, though, who wish to "question" these facts do so out of ignorance, and apparently an inability to judge spatial relationships in three dimensions.

No, siree Bob.

When we factored in sleeping, eating, getting in and out of their suits, and PLSSs on the LM we have a serious space problem that was not addressed.
We also have contamination issues, floating dust issues.
etc.

BLACK SEPTEMBER

The Black September Organization (BSO) (Arabic: منظمة أيلول الأسود‎, Munaẓẓamat Aylūl al-aswad) was a Palestinian terrorist group, founded in 1970. It was responsible for the kidnapping and murder of eleven Israeli athletes and officials, and fatal shooting of a West German policeman, during the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich, their most publicized event. They are ultimately responsible for the creation of permanent, professional, and military-trained counter-terrorism forces of major European countries, like GSG9 or GIGN, or the reorganization of already standing units to such a group, like the Special Air Service of the UK.

en.wikipedia.org...(group)

Now here is something interesting.

Talk about being threatened...

On another7 December, in 1972, a terrorist organization targeted one of America’s proudest achievements —Project Apollo. Fortunately, that tale is an obscure one in the annals of our space program, because the intended targets survived unscathed. But most Americans areunaware that the final flight to the Moon was being viewed through the sinister eyes of a notorious terrorist group ironically named Black September

Here is how Commander Gene Cernan described the post-EVA activities he and LMP Jack Schmitt went through inside the LM following their first moonwalk on the lunar surface at Taurus Littrow.

"Stripped down to our liquid-cooled underwear, we had a quick dinner, debriefed with the guys on Earth via a private radio loop, and played with some of the rocks we had stowed in the cabin boxes."
Gene Cernan (Apollo 17) - describing his activities at the end of EVA-1 inside the LM, from his biography "The Last Man On The Moon" (St. Martin's Press)

In this next quote, Cernan is describing a brief conversation over the radio he had following the end of their second EVA at Taurus Littrow. The conversation Cernan is referencing was between himself and NASA's Director of Flight Crew Operations back at Mission Control in Houston - a man by the name of Deke Slayton. Cernan was concerned about the fact that prior to their flight, the terrorist group "Black September" had made several threats towards the Apollo 17 mission and the astronauts families, and with the recent Munich Massacre at the 1972 Olympic Summer Games no doubt in the back of his mind, Cernan wanted to make sure his family was safe while he was on the Moon. Here is how Cernan recalled his brief conversation with Deke Slayton.

"After we had had some chow and settled down, Deke told me on a private radio loop that everything was fine at home. "I talked to Barbara [Cernan's wife] and she said everything is okay" he said. Not a peep from Black September."
Gene Cernan (Apollo 17) - describing a private radio conversation with Deke Slayton after EVA-2, from his biography "The Last Man On The Moon" (St. Martin's Press)

Just to clarify the evidence related to this “private loop” conversation that Cernan describes between himself and Deke Slayton, it is worthwhile to note that the previous day, after Cernan and Schmitt had completed their first EVA and were safely inside the pressurized security of their lunar module Challenger, there was a very brief conversation over the public radio loop with Mission Control, with Cernan asking Houston about the status of his family at that time. In response, Deke Slayton actually gets on the public radio loop to tell Cernan that he has not talked to them that day. Here is the actual conversation from the Apollo 17 Mission Transcript.

126:13:43 Cernan: Say, Joe, I guess the home front was probably listening in. Any one talked to 'em? (Pause)
126:13:57 Slayton: Haven't talked to them today, Geno. I haven't at least.
126:14:06 Cernan: Hello, boss, how are you doing down there?
126:14:08 Slayton: Just fine. Waiting for you guys to go to sleep so we can do the same.


Remember, this public conversation took place at the end of the first day on the lunar surface following EVA-1. The discussion about Cernan’s family over the “private loop” that he describes in his biography took place at the end of the second day, following EVA-2. What you are seeing here is Cernan making the initial inquiry about his family over the public loop, and Slayton having no answer for him at that time. According to Cernan`s own testimony, the answer was provided privately the next evening.

An examination of the Apollo 17 lunar surface mission tapes and voice transcripts that are available in the NASA archives clearly demonstrates that this specific conversation with Deke Slayton that Gene Cernan mentions in his biography where he is informed that his family is fine was never recorded or transcribed onto the official public record of the Apollo 17 mission. Remember that Cernan admitted that this conversation about his family with Slayton following the second EVA was carried out over the "private radio loop", and if that was indeed the case, then we should NOT expect to find ANY reference to this second conversation in the public transcripts and audio tapes at all - and we don't! The only reason we know these transmissions actually occurred is because astronaut Gene Cernan talks about them in his biography while admitting to the existence and use of the "private radio loop".

Please take note that this proves that the Apollo astronauts not only had the ability to carry out, but in fact did carry out encrypted radio conversations with Mission Control that were entirely covert and totally "off the public record".

Now why would Black September threaten Apollo astronauts? Most of their activities were directed in Europe.
How could they think to bypass what would be undoubtably military security surrounding NASA and Apollo?


www.nss.org...
magicufo.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by FoosM

BLACK SEPTEMBER

"After we had had some chow and settled down, Deke told me on a private radio loop that everything was fine at home. "I talked to Barbara [Cernan's wife] and she said everything is okay" he said. Not a peep from Black September."

Now imagine on the last mission, anybody willing to blow the whistle might want to try it then.
So to keep everyone in line, they come up with an external threat such as Black September against crew member families who are aware of the hoax.

reply to post by FoosM

Now why would Black September threaten Apollo astronauts? Most of their activities were directed in Europe.
How could they think to bypass what would be undoubtably military security surrounding NASA and Apollo?

Same reason they would massacre Israeli athletes at the Olympics: publicity. NASA security isn't generally handled by the military, and the families were never protected... why should they be? As I recall, they called in the Secret Service because of the Black September threat.

reply to post by FoosM

Now imagine on the last mission, anybody willing to blow the whistle might want to try it then.
So to keep everyone in line, they come up with an external threat such as Black September against crew member families who are aware of the hoax.

Your imagination always seems to travel in the same circles. Are you suggesting that one of the Apollo 17 astronauts was threatening to "blow the whistle," so they secretly threatened his family? If they were threatening someone, wouldn't it make more sense to publicize the cover story first, instead of keeping it secret? If an astronaut's family were murdered, people might wonder if the story NASA revealed afterwards were a cover-up; if they announced the threat before hand, the astronaut would clam up and the FBI could claim an early victory in the "War On Terrorism" by framing some Palestinian patsies. Sheesh, learn to think like a real conspiracy theorist, FoosM!

reply to post by FoosM


More poppycock, and has already been addressed, in-thread, last Fall.

This is just another deflection attempt....guess you thought enough time had elapsed, and people would buy your nonsense again? Re-hashing,the same old, same old??



To address more apparent flinging of poo at the wall, just to see if any of it will stick: "Black September"?? Out of desperation, concocting some fanciful "reason" for this threat to the Apollo 17 crews' families??

Oh, and BTW....I'm fairly certain you probably never read any actual, factual books about Apollo....such as, for instance, Gene Cernan's autobiography....where he TALKED ABOUT "Black September"....

Guys, guys... watch this video.




This guy makes the statement that, are you ready for this? That all 800 plus pounds of lunar samples were brought back on in two containers per flight. All of it And they keep saying those boxes were in six missions What, did they know Apollo 13 wasn't meant to land

And wouldn't you know, Y-12 was linked to another BIG secret.


So you can say, these guys have a history of keeping secrets, LOL.