Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

Nazis in Disney World

From NASA:
As the 1960s ended, von Braun had realized his dream of exploring outer space by helping place a human on the moon and satellite probes to the planets. His engineering and managerial expertise contributed to a technological revolution but his respect for the power of imagination had changed the way America perceived space exploration much earlier in the 1950s. He believed that America's devotion to space fiction in the early 1950s could be channeled into interest in space fact. "It was a matter of synthesizing the philosophical aspects into NEAT packages and solid statements which the public would BUY," according to Erik Bergaust, von Braun's biographer

...there were already more than 15 million television sets in America by 1952 and von Braun recognized that this change in American culture had the potential to fundamentally reshape American past perceptions.[5] So did Walter Elias Disney who had used film as a powerful medium to entertain and inform Americans since the 1940s. "Neither Walt Disney nor Dr. von Braun were ever backward in making maximum use of new media for advancing their ideas: Now was the age of television," said one observer.[6]

Von Braun served as technical advisor on three space-related television films that Disney produced in the 1950s. Together, von Braun (the engineer) and Disney (the artist) used the new medium of television to illustrate how high man might fly on the strength of technology and the spirit of human imagination. According to David R. Smith, Director of Archives at Walt Disney Productions, von Braun caught the attention of Disney senior producer Ward Kimball...

In reality, von Braun's on-camera appearance in "Man in Space" and the other two films represented only a portion of his involvement in the actual production of the three shows. Dr. Ernst Stuhlinger, who had worked with von Braun since his days in Germany, also worked for Disney as a technical consultant. According to Stuhlinger, von Braun made sure the Disney artists built accurate models of the space vehicles for the three shows. "Here von Braun was really on home grounds.... He provided a wealth of information on technical details, from in-orbit fueling operations down to problems of cooking and eating under weightlessness," Stuhlinger said. He also recalled the many hours that von Braun devoted to the Disney projects. Von Braun's official duties for the Army often took him to the West Coast to meet with Jupiter and Redstone contractors. After the meetings, he and Stuhlinger would go to the Disney studios where they would work into the morning hours with the artists and producers

In 1965, 10 years after "Man in Space" first aired, von Braun invited Disney and others involved in the 1950s films to tour the Marshall Space Flight Center... One Marshall official wrote, "Out of this we would at least establish good will, and maybe (if we play our cards right) we could get something going that would be of tremendous benefit to MSFC, Apollo, NASA, and the entire space effort." [41] Von Braun himself wrote that the Disney tour "may easily result in a Disney picture about manned space flight."... In reality, the tour at Marshall and other NASA sites did not inspire Disney to use the 1950s television series as a model for a new film about space exploration. No doubt, Wernher von Braun was well qualified to imagine what the show and the future American space program might have looked like if Disney had chosen to do so. (wink wink)

Ernst Stuhlinger acknowledges that von Braun was aware of being criticized for promoting space outside of previously established circles. But he adds that von Braun's desire to see man travel into space meant convincing scientists, industry, politicians and, in particular, the public. "He fought on all fronts each in its own language. That was his genius,"
----

Kimball left Disney in '72, Von Braun left NASA in '72, Apollo ended in '72

reply to post by FoosM


I take it from the mess you posted you have no answers to anybody's questions.

But I'd really like to know when Werner von Braun was found to be a war criminal.

reply to post by FoosM


So what?

Herman Oberth was the adviser on that movie. Of course it's an accurate depiction of a launch. You think it's notable because you lack education in the history of rocketry.

Way to backpedal though, first we didn't go cause we can't. Now it's a Nazi conspiracy. Whatever, anything to sell more video's for Jarrah White...eh?

Still waiting for you to explain why you deleted a sentence that proves you were using NASA's own information. Even though you are hypocritically trying to call them frauds.

I'll link to that again, for any newcomers.

PROOF - FoosM is using NASA sources and then covering up that fact:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by FoosM


Sooo... let me get this straight. Hitler destroyed the props for "Frau im Mond" because they would prove that the V-2 was just a special effect? Furthermore, the US looked the other way about von Braun's past, even though they knew he couldn't deliver the goods? Isn't it just possible that they gave him a pass because he actually knew how to build rockets? And if von Braun was just a Disney Imagineer, why did the actual Apollo program look so different than all the beautiful drawings and models that he did for the TV series... which was based on papers he had published earlier?

Anyone watch 'flagging the gems?' In it, Jarrah seems to prove his case that the Video Shot during the "LIVE FEED" is edited. There is also what seems to be an edit with the Flag being planted on the Moon. (he is using film that i believe Nasa claims is the original transmission footage)

I am not sure what to think of that, but it does look like there was some video edits.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by talisman]

gosh, i leave for a week and i cant believe the argument is still going. Just reading through a few posts and I cringe at the butchering science has been given by the hoax believers.

when i came to this thread a week ago i had a fairly open mind about this. but now i am in no doubt that we went to the moon. the scientific evidence is compelling. It is a credit to some of the guys here thorough argumnets backed up by independant sources

As for the hoaxers, the argument presnted in this thread by hoax supporters has been exposed to be just "fluff". There is no place in science for fluff and it gets exposed fairly easily. This whole thread is a perfect example of weening it out.

Now I will again point out that I was in favour of the hoax argument before visiting this thread (more so for fantasy value). What I was hoping to see from the hoax camp was some clear direction on what they are *actually* trying to achieve, JW in particular with his bag of videos. In my opinion, the criteria for being considered a genius and "whipping" NASA would require the said person to

1) Have a clear plan/path for having an official investigation of the matter by a credible third party independant organisation (like a royal comission?). This to me is an honorable intention for one that advocates the hoax argument.

2) Having their scientific argument submitted for publication via peer review process. Achieving a credible publication record may form a basis to pursuit 1. I believe this is the only avenue by which any impact can be made in the hoax debate. This is KEY. In layman terms, beat NASA at Science!

I make these two points as sincere advise to those that advocate the hoax debate. Without clear honorable intentions, the underlying motives ( I specultate) appear to be *financial gain*. Or perhaps the simplest explanation for these videos could be that they are just a collection of TAFE projects (video production).

Also another word of advice for those affliated with the JW videos. Be careful being associated with this cause if your intention is to pursue a career in some sort of science, engineering or similar. Employers (like myself) scour the internet for the type of material that would confirm an applicants suitability for a career in science/engineering (eg. Rio Tinto would probably not hire one that has public facebook images of themselves binge drinking, all for the purpose of mine safety)

Taking JW as an example, if that is his real name, he is virtually unemployable in these fields based on the poor understanding of science he presents in his videos. In some instances it may be difficult to erase this from the internet.

The bible says somethin about us going to the moon somehow. Its in the Bible somewheres so its a FACT we landed there. there are photografs to. i have seen old black and wite photografs that the astronots took of each other on the moon and even talked to each other and God helped them do it all so that no other peeples wood git there 1st be-for we got there.

reply to post by lemonfresh


Lame. Really lame. Is that the best you can do? I'll bet you're a Nibiru believer. Come back when you've learned Akkadian, and we'll parse the Enuma Elish.

reply to post by dragnet53


You only prove us right, when you act in such a manner.

The Moon landings happened, deal with it.

Originally posted by pezza
gosh, i leave for a week and i cant believe the argument is still going. Just reading through a few posts and I cringe at the butchering science has been given by the hoax believers.
...
when i came to this thread a week ago i had a fairly open mind about this. but now i am in no doubt that we went to the moon. the scientific evidence is compelling. It is a credit to some of the guys here thorough argumnets backed up by independant sources...

Nice post, Pezza, and some very good points about the 'pigeonholes' these folk have put themselves in...

It's people like you (and -PLB- & others earlier in the thread) that make it worthwhile. For the 'true believers' of the hoax, there is not really any genuine hope - they are the folk who are, shall we say, a little challenged in the logic and education departments. And they are VERY HIGHLY motivated to keep up the bluster, for one of two main reasons - either:
- they are affiliated (or just troll-mates) with the Apollo deniers trying to make a buck out of videos, books and hits..
and/or
- they are the type that the world hasn't been kind to, and now they are desperate to be 'one of the chosen few', the elite, the crafty investigators that have uncovered a sinister plot. A plot that over 40 years of investigative journalists and hundreds of thousands of scientists and technicians around the globe, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who worked on Apollo, just couldn't spot...

Of course there will never be a commission or enquiry. There's not even an Erin Brokovich just waiting in the wings.. Just as there is no recognised or credible scientist who will rally to the lost cause. To the deniers, dat's becoz da evil TPTB is just too powaful... But of course there is another, simpler answer (where's Ockham/Occam...?). And that is - as soon as anyone with half a brain actually looks at the evidence PROPERLY, there is nothing left but derision for the deniers.

But what does matter, is that people who are introduced to this Apollo denial stuff and might be gullibly misled by Jarrah and his ilk, will hopefully eventually stumble over sites like this one. Where the issues are actually dealt with PROPERLY rather than in the closed, controlled cocoon of insanity that is Youtube.

Over the years, I and other deBUNKers have been thanked by quite a few folks for letting them see the truth about the Apollo missions, and other similar issues. Often they also expressed their thanks for being exposed to scientific method and rigour, and teaching them how to do real research.

To get that feedback is incredibly rewarding! (Teachers/Lecturers - of which I am a retired version - know this very well!).

And, ok, I have to confess, it's kinda fun watching the hoax believers end up:
- tying themselves in knots
- pretending they didn't say stuff
- arguing via Youtube
- putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "LaLa" (or zzz...)
- arguing from incredulity
- making up 'quotes' (and getting busted on it)
- scattergunning new topics so as to avoid debating old ones
.. and using all the myriad other tactics of the uninformed - they don't want to debate, simply to derail. See above for numerous examples. (A special hello goes out to dragnet53, FoosM, Exuberant1, ppk55... and to max2m (oh look, another member who just registered for this thread!!) for his brilliant gaffe on gravity - applause!!...)

Anyway, to those of you prepared to listen, to do the hard yards of REAL research, and to use some of that grey matter in a logical and considered way..

I salute you!

reply to post by CHRLZ


It is obvious you are losing this debate.


Otherwise you wouldn't still be trying to win it.

And what kind of person argues with moon hoax believers? Consider that one for a moment.

If it is so obvious that we went and everyone knows, what would motivate a person to spend several hours typing posts on a thread in attempts to convince everyone of something everyone already believes happened. You must feel like you are not wasting your time or something.


*Anyhow, you are probably still sore about the fact that No other nations have been able to see the Apollo landers.

Only American spacecraft can see the Apollo landers, only the accused (NASA) has been able to provide evidence that their spacecraft are present on the moon. No third-party images of the landers has been forthcoming.

Even the Mighty Soviet Union couldn't take a picture of the landers - even if they were there.

*Anyhow, you are probably still sore about the fact that No other nations have been able to see the Apollo landers.

Only American spacecraft can see the Apollo landers, only the accused (NASA) has been able to provide evidence that their spacecraft are present on the moon. No third-party images of the landers has been forthcoming.

Even the Mighty Soviet Union couldn't take a picture of the landers - even if they were there.

Sometimes I think u must be retarded:

Chandrayaan and Jaxa (India and Japan) I dont think USA, India and Japan is the same nation, but ok.

Evidence that their spacecrafts are present on the moon.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 9-5-2010 by hateeternal]

reply to post by hateeternal


What are you on about.

There are no Apollo landers in any images other than those allegedly from Apollo and from the LRO mission (NASA).



....You think people won't click your links and so you think you can get away with implying the landers are visible in those images you linked to. That's low of you.



[edit on 9-5-2010 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by Exuberant1
It is obvious you are losing this debate.

You still haven't quite got the hang of this "burden of proof' thingy, have you? Tell us, Exuberant1, what is your proof that I am losing?

And while you are at it and to give you some practice, PLEASE CITE where your Frank Byrne 'quote' comes from.

Otherwise you wouldn't still be trying to win it.

I'm afraid that makes no sense. (What a surprise.) If someone keeps making wrongful claims, I should just let them go, should I?

Are you moderating, now, or just playing "he who should be obeyed"?

And what kind of person argues with moon hoax believers?

Oooh, I KNOW this one!! People who DON'T believe it was a hoax.

That was actually a pretty easy one.

Consider that one for a moment.

OK.

(You'll note I am NOT snipping bits out I don't want to answer. Try that sometime, Exuberant1.)

If it is so obvious that we went and everyone knows

Putting words into my mouth. When did I say that - CITE please, Exuberant1...?

Yes, it's obvious that we went to anyone with a decent science background and a logical approach to research. That is clearly not everyone, Exuberant1 - just check the mirror...

what would motivate a person to spend several hours typing posts in a thread in attempts to convince everyone of something everyone already believes happened.

Repeating your claim that I think everyone knows it happened just looks downright silly.

You must feel like you are not wasting your time or something.

It's quite amusing that you would post this, right after I explained what is so gratifying to me - namely that a newcomer to the topic might find their way here, and see how the denier's claims are ripped into tiny shreds by those who actually know the topic well.

*Anyhow, you are probably still sore about the fact that No other nations have been able to see the Apollo landers.

I wasn't sore before, and I'm not now. That's because, unlike you, I know what the resolution issues are, and what spacecraft have been sent up there to date. Unlike you, I had no ridiculous expectations that Hubble, or Chandrayaan, or...) could do it. It's all pretty basic, simple stuff, for those that know what they are talking about. But the landers have been clearly resolved by LRO. Eg, here's Apollo 11, 12 and 17:
LRO - Apollo 11 landing site
(If you know your Apollo, you can see the boulder field near West crater than Neil flew over to avoid, and you can work out where the flag is, the EASEP, the LRRR, the PSEP.. I'll bet Exuberant knows what all that means..)
LRO - Apollo 12 landing site & Surveyor 3
LRO - Apollo 17 landing site
...and those results will be verified by others as time progresses - indeed much of it (eg the terrain and the trails) has *already* been verified..

Previous to that, there was overwhelming evidence from the Jaxa/Selene/Kaguya 3D terrain mapping, and the images from Chandrayaan showing Apollo trails, to name just two.. Here's those links:
Jaxa/Selene - Apollo 15 3d terrain
Chandrayaan - Apollo 15

But Exuberant1, these were posted earlier - do you just tune out anything you don't want to discuss? (Rhetorical question..)

Now, I'd like to see you actually address this point:
Did these countries (Japan, India) lie or fabricate this evidence?
OR
Did someone send special little spacecraft up to the moon to lay a large number of trails, in several locations, that perfectly matched all the video/film/journal evidence?
And how exactly did NASA, in 1969, have access to accurate terrain mapping of the Moon? They *must* have had that info, to create the perfect 'backdrops', that you think were used. And yet it didn't exist. More secret missions? - gee this conspiracy just keeps getting bigger to the point of being unmanageable.

Occam..?

OCKHAM? - Where are you?

And do provide any evidence to back up your claims. Or you could consider saying "OK, I was WRONG".

Only American spacecraft can see the Apollo landers

So far, more or less correct... But the missions were just a teensy little bit more than just landers...

only the accused (NASA) has been able to provide evidence that their spacecraft are present on the moon.

But, wait... you just said it was only the lander. Now you have extended that (hoping no-one would notice) to the entire body of evidence?

Nice try. And THANK YOU for demonstrating my point so perfectly, about the techniques being used by deniers.

Even the Mighty Soviet Union couldn't take a picture of the landers - even if they were there.

Neither could... the New Zealanders - why, their spacecraft aren't even close to doing this sort of stuff!! That's exactly the same silly reasoning as you just gave.

Some of us don't have unrealistic expectations, and therefore we understand why things happen when they do. We understand why, no matter how big a telescope you put in your back yard, you won't be seeing any Apollo lander...

If a spacecraft has the required resolution capability and images the region under suitable lighting conditions, it *will* resolve the landers. LRO has done that. Jaxa had terrain mapping, so it verified the terrain. Chandrayaan, despite failing early in its mission, had sufficient resolution to show the trails, and the terrain. That was what the spacecraft were capable of.

What is it that you can't comprehend, Exuberant1? I'm happy to try to help you gain a little more knowledge on the topic.

... Because OTHERS will benefit from it.


PS - Now don't 'forget' this time, Exuberant1 - you need to CITE that Frank Byrne quote.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by CHRLZ]

reply to post by CHRLZ


So have you bothered to contact Jarrah White to issue your 'direct' challenge to him?


Or does you 'direct' challenge still consist only of a post on ATS?

Has 'Jarrah' ever posted here? Either way, may I offer another direct challenge...

Jarrah White, come on over to ATS and debate your claims.

...Probably.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
So have you bothered to contact Jarrah White to issue your 'direct' challenge to him?

Yes.


NOW, Exuberant, stop acting like an eel and answer some questions, and stop avoiding everything that is directed at you..

START BY CITING THAT FRANK BYRNE QUOTE.

reply to post by CHRLZ


CHRLZ,

Are you going to keep pretending that you don't know the Frank Byrne Quote is from MoonFaker Exhibit D?

Are you going to pretend you haven't already been told this?

Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by CHRLZ

 

CHRLZ,

Are you going to keep pretending that you don't know the Frank Byrne Quote is from MoonFaker Exhibit D?

Are you going to pretend you haven't already been told this?

Then perhaps you can tell us how Jarrah managed to get a quote from a man who has been dead for over a decade???

Obituaries October 22, 2000

reply to post by Tomblvd


Have you contacted Jarrah White to find an answer to your question?

Or do you think posting it on a thread somewhere on an internet forum where Jarrah White is not a member will make up for actually contacting him?

The man was clearly alive when he was interviewed and that interview is in MoonFaker Exhibit D - which you apparently did not watch.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by Exuberant1]