Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

Originally posted by AgentSmith
reply to post by FoosM

 

This occurred around the 300th day of the mission, the accumulative effects from numerous SPEs will eventually take their toll. However it does not change the fact that the SPE's were not powerful enough to cause any noticeable damage to a human being, based on the data returned by the instrument while it was still functional for the nearly 300 days prior.

So what? It could have happened the first day!
And how do you know the flare wasnt dangerous enough.
The instrumentation was damaged by the flare.

You Apollo advocates are so quick to claim that humans would not be affected, but there is a big problem with satellites being damaged by flares! If flares can damage satellites and probes, then they could have also damaged the electronics of the CM and LM! But, we dont hear about problems concerning that either. Do we?

Most of this will come from Joe H. Allen during the –Rio de Janeiro, STP-11 lecture on 10 March 2006.

If Apollo defenders state that no proton events occurred during Apollo, you can tell them proton events weren't systematically measured till after Apollo:

Proton Event list (which begins only with GOES)

&

Solar proton events (SPEs) are most effectively measured in space using satellites, but they can also be measured or inferred from atmospheric and ground level measurements on the Earth. Satellite data that provide information about SPEs go back to the late 1950s, but due to different measurement instrumentation, a continuous, directly comparable record is not available. The best systematic information comes from the GEOS satellite which has a geosynchronous orbit around Earth, and has been measuring solar radiation since 1976 to the present. The NOAA Space Environment Service Center provides a listing of major SPEs and the associated flux of protons with energies >10 Mev

If solar flares aren't dangerous then why during

28-30 Oct–ISS astronauts retreated to heavy
shielded service module; FAA issued its first
radiation dose warning for radiation to
passengers above 25,000 feet; Power
systems failed in Malmo, Sweden and the
Republic of South Africa; NOAA-17 AMSU-A1
lost scanner; ACE and WIND lost plasma
observations; GOES e-sensors saturated;
CHANDRA halted till 11/01

Doesn't matter when you go, death awaits.
This explains why after all this time the USSR never sent men around the moon. They probably realized that even waiting for the Solar Minimum was too risky.

Sunspot cycle decline and minimum
years are ideal for “killer electrons” at
GEO and lower orbit altitudes.
Sunspot cycle maximum years are ideal
for energetic proton and heavier ion
events that cause SEUs and sensor
optics & power panel degradation. But
major solar events can happen anytime.
Major magnetic storms may happen at
any time and cause spectacular effects
on satellites, technology and humans
but they are most frequent in weeks
around equinox.

So why aren't scientists talking? Why is it so hard to get straight answers? Well when an Apollo defender claims that scientists are all in agreement, or information gets shared, blah blah show them this:

We now share information more openly than before, but much is still concealed because of commercial or other fears;

Oh... people dont want other people to know when their technology or satellites fail. Sort of reminds me of the US vs USSR space race. So what are their options? Keep their mouths shut, spin the facts or lie about their success and failures. Big money is at stake. Careers are at stake. Contracts are at stake.

whats more:

Helpful individuals within aerospace organizations develop close ties with institutional personnel, but then retire and there isn’t anyone to replace them (happens on both ends).

As lessons are learned about the effects of Space Weather by one generation, another comes along that hasn’t had the experience and must learn again at the expense of programs.

Probably the excuse Apollo defenders will use to explain why we haven't gone back to the "moon". But it can be used as the same reason, by hoax proponents, to explain how the hoax was fully pulled off.

As successful scientists and engineers move into management positions, sometimes their attitudes change and they seem to forget important lessons.

Thats right, this also works when people are asked to tow-the-line, keep their mouth shut when they notice anomalies, and they will be rewarded with prominent positions.

Sometimes compartmentalization within an aerospace company can result in the same type of satellite being made by two different groups for different customers and one group will take account of past susceptibility issues while the other seems unaware of basic precautions.

Is that an example of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing? Of course it is. Again, how could the hoax be pulled off? Most people didnt know they were even involved in a hoax! And the few that might have figured it out:
Who could they go to? Who could they trust?
When your government is involved in a multi-billion dollar scam and you are getting paid from it, there is no place for you to go! Not the press, not to the general public, not your family. You are on your own.
And you will take that truth to the grave.
If the Astronauts are in on it... the heroes of the nation, icons to the world.
Where can you go except to take the truth to the grave by choice, with a paycheck, or by force.
We all know by know we live in a world where top public leaders do not get punished for their crimes.



www.scostep.ucar.edu...
www.preparingforthegreatshift.org...

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

1. NASA "defenders" have claimed that NASA knew enough about space radiation in 1968.

Radiation is the same no matter if on earth or in space!! So no need to be in space to understand the effects now, right? Sure the atmosphere helps shield us from effects, but you can study all forms of radiation on earth.

Radiation is radiation. You and Foosm and others seem to act like it changes solely because its in a vacuum.

BTW do you remember the Manhattan project? I can imagine those scientific brains figured out massive data and research in regard to radiation and the effects long before Apollo was even a dream.

Do you even understand that millions of Phd's were studying the effects before your parents were even born?

reply to post by FoosM

They probably realized that even waiting for the Solar Minimum was too risky.

Give me a break Foosm.

Do you ride a bike?

Do you drive a car?

Fly in Jets?

Your more likely to die doing these things than the Apollo astronauts odds of being exposed to a deadly solar flare that would have aborted the mission.

Every second you are alive is another risk of death. Risk is unavoidable and for someone to claim otherwise is complete stupidity.

reply to post by FoosM


More lies
Why have you conveniently ignored the rest of my post:

Originally posted by AgentSmith
In the quote of my original post you used 'acceptable' is spelled correctly. When I went in to add the MARIE data I noticed it had been spelled 'aceptable' by accident and corrected it.
Besides that, in the quote you used I clearly state "I also posted data from a separate space probe some time ago showing radiation levels measured outside of the protective reach of the magnetosphere and as expected they too also showed radiation levels to be acceptable for short term exposure during even major SPEs." which you completely ignore and try and create the impression I am purely talking about RADOM.

You've been caught out Foos, man up and take responsibility and stop trying to bluff you're way out of it.
As I said, the quote you used had a spelling correction I only put in after adding the MARIE data.
Even if you forget that, I am clearly talking about a different experiment to RADOM and you try and create the impression I was not.
You've lied and cheated, you've been caught. Stop acting like the kid covered in chocolate saying he didn't eat the cake.

reply to post by FoosM


What has all of that got to do with Apollo? The ISS wasn't even around during Apollo! I really don't see how it's relevant....

That's.. huh... what you would say right?

OMG, this is still going on, I don't remember the overall evidence against or trend of the thread, it's been so long.

ATS really needs a 'summary function' of some sort for threads that remain THIS active for THIS long...

Originally posted by nataylor
reply to post by PsychNurse

 

Do you think the engineering and stresses on a 8 pound instrument that's been in space for 2 and a half years is a little different than a 100,000 pound manned craft in space for a week and a half?

Are you suggesting that a probe needs to be in space for a year or two before a flare burst can knock it out of commission?

reply to post by FoosM


No, I'm suggesting that an instrument that has been in space for several years has gone through many more stresses, such as thermal cycles, than a craft that is in space for a week and a half. And that the shielding on a small instrument designed to detect radiation is much different than the shielding on a manned craft.

Originally posted by nataylor
reply to post by FoosM

 

No, I'm suggesting that an instrument that has been in space for several years has gone through many more stresses, such as thermal cycles, than a craft that is in space for a week and a half. And that the shielding on a small instrument designed to detect radiation is much different than the shielding on a manned craft.

Understood, but are you saying that spacecraft, probes or otherwise, cannot be damaged by a flare within a few days or a week of operation in space?

reply to post by FoosM

Understood, but are you saying that spacecraft, probes or otherwise, cannot be damaged by a flare within a few days or a week of operation in space?

Why would you think anyone here would say that? You can get hit by a truck the very first time you ride your bicycle in traffic. The more you ride in traffic,. however, the more potential encounters with trucks you have. Note, this does not mean that you have a greater chance of being hit by a truck on any given day, all other circumstances being equal. However, since you're obviously loading up a cut and paste fiesta about satellites being damaged by solar flares early in their career, proceed with your straw man as though someone had said" yes." Maybe then we can get back to discussing the glaring logical fallacies in Jarrah White's videos.

reply to post by DJW001

However, since you're obviously loading up a cut and paste fiesta about satellites being damaged by solar flares early in their career, proceed with your straw man as though someone had said" yes." Maybe then we can get back to discussing the glaring logical fallacies in Jarrah White's videos.

Well Said!

Yes let us discuss the logical fallacy of JW videos, its about time.

Originally posted by FoosM

Understood, but are you saying that spacecraft, probes or otherwise, cannot be damaged by a flare within a few days or a week of operation in space?

No, I'm not saying that.

Why is LEO so busy?






Maybe this is why:

The M288 orbit ( 4 hour sidereal, 5 orbits per day relative to the earth) is located at a radius of 12789 km, about 6400 kilometers altitude. That places it between the inner and outer van Allen belts. This is a relatively high radiation environment compared to low earth orbit, but lower than the center of the belts. Recent advances in semiconductor technology permit unshielded electronics to operate in this region, and Server Sky takes advantage of that work. Traditional satellites are damaged by this much radiation; consequently, there are few satellites operating in these orbits.

Ionizing radiation does five nasty things to semiconductors:
Latchup
SEU - single event upsets, bit flipping
Oxide charging
Flash memory errors
Crystal lattice degradation

After more than 50 years operating in space, we still are having a problem dealing with the VABs.



We are all well aware that our planet has natural defenses against space radiation.
One of those defenses is not present in LEO.

Masahiro Kawasaki, a member of the Space Activities Commission, said it is too early to tell if the satellite can be fully recovered. Its not in our hands to know whether DRTS will become fully functional again, he said.

If the satellite cannot be recovered, it would be Japans second major space mishap in less than a week. On Oct. 25, JAXA lost contact with the Advanced Earth Observing Satellite-2, and hopes for recovering that craft are fading rapidly.

The DRTS incident also has raised questions about Japans ability to protect its satellites from solar flares. JAXA has no countermeasures to assist during a solar flare, complained one official. Its a weakness.

Junichiro Moriuma, a JAXA spokesman, confirmed that the agency had no procedures to protect the satellite, despite warnings that a strong geomagnetic storm was on the way. DRTS is a big satellite and it is difficult for us to take precautions, he said.

I dont understand (if I would believe we landed men on the moon) how difficult is it to protect these satellites with Apollo grade aluminum shielding? All this money these countries are spending and they skimp on the aluminum shields? Should we donate some kitchen foil? Declare war on radiation?



www.space.com...

This would seem to answer most people's questions. Summary for persons who don't like reading pages ... Bigger primitive circuitry is less vulnerable to radiation than smaller circuity. Thanks.

From: www.vanderbilt.edu...

The problem only promises to get worse as computers become smaller and smaller. Many companies are currently building processors at the 45-nanometer level, while others like IBM and NEC are working toward 22-nanometer chips. (A one-nanometer circuit is equal in size to one billionth of a meter.)

“Smaller electronic devices are cheaper, faster and more functional,” Massengill says. “However, as these devices decrease in size, they also become more susceptible to radiation. For example, today’s desktop computers are quite sensitive to ambient radiation, which is emitted by almost everything around us.”

Back up references:
www.fact-index.com...
www.projectrho.com...

And yes, this thread needs a summary, or just closed and split into individual threads. Mostly at the moment it's just an advert for Jarrah White and having his material reposted verbatim.

Originally posted by theability
reply to post by DJW001

 

However, since you're obviously loading up a cut and paste fiesta about satellites being damaged by solar flares early in their career, proceed with your straw man as though someone had said" yes." Maybe then we can get back to discussing the glaring logical fallacies in Jarrah White's videos.

Well Said!

Yes let us discuss the logical fallacy of JW videos, its about time.

We are all waiting for these discussions to happen.
Lets see how long this takes.

First off I would like to say thank you for posting this. First post on ATS. I have read many posts and threads and I decided to start here. It has been interesting reading some of these posts, to say the least.

I for a long time I never believed we actually made it to the moon. For hundreds of reasons, atleast in my mind... The point to this is that I never truly researched or studied for my answers and believes. I took them for truth and that was that. Man did I have some strange realities. The truth, the real truth about the moon is this.....

We will never truly know, while we live and breath in these bodies. You see we went to the moon, and found out many things. Many things the mass public will never know. Instead, we will recieve more lies covered in sweet and juicy cover-ups and conspericies. Even when the truth is presented, it is still only a sample of the whole thing.

"Too many chiefs and not enough indians" i think that sums it up. We as people, people of the world have been taken over by an extremely large and minipulating power. We have truly lost sight of who we are and our purpose. We have let "them" take over us. And im sure i will catch some grief for posting this but think about it. But I really truly believe we need more people out there like this. No matter if he is wrong or right. Prove him wrong.. Will the people who "REALLY" know please stand up!

Originally posted by FoosM

Originally posted by theability
reply to post by DJW001

 

However, since you're obviously loading up a cut and paste fiesta about satellites being damaged by solar flares early in their career, proceed with your straw man as though someone had said" yes." Maybe then we can get back to discussing the glaring logical fallacies in Jarrah White's videos.

Well Said!

Yes let us discuss the logical fallacy of JW videos, its about time.

We are all waiting for these discussions to happen.
Lets see how long this takes.

OK, how are we to believe a person who lies and makes up factsfor his videos, and when called out on it, he ignores it?

Originally posted by CHRLZ
STOP PRESS!!
Especially for tomblvd, but for all discerning viewers eager to find out more about Jarrah's 'expert witness' program.... it appears that the 'expert' in Jarrah's video was contacted, way back in 2007 - try here:
educationforum.ipbhost.com...

Scroll down to the post by Dave Greer, Apr 19 2007, 12:15 PM.
The image he created is no longer there, but you'll see it shortly if you keep reading..

Because.. it gets SO MUCH BETTER. Scroll down to about 3/4 of the way down, Dave Greer again at Apr 23 2007, 04:58 AM.

There is the email from Jenny Heller for all to see, with her permission. And the (very pleasant) email from Dave that elicited her reply, along with an example image showing the same type of shadow effect. Like i said, It's not hard to do.

Now, I'm not going to quote the email from Jenny, except to whet your appetite with these words "...one of his class assignments.."

I STRONGLY recommend that everyone goes and takes a long hard look at what she says. Try to keep a straight face while doing so.

If Jarrah could have been busted worse, I honestly don't know how.

I'll be interested to hear other comments on this. I'm afraid I'm finding it rather difficult to stop laughing. BTW, in case you are concerned at what you might find, the email is not embarrassing at all, from Jenny's perspective... In fact, I congratulate her for what she did, and said.

But from Jarrah's? OH DEAR!!!!

Priceless. You just can't get better entertainment than this....

How are we to take any video JW makes seriously if he is willing to lie about something that trivial?

Originally posted by FoosM
Why is LEO so busy?

Probably because it's the cheapest orbit to get to, and most satellites that don't have a geosynchronous requirement will probably work in LEO.

Originally posted by FoosM
I dont understand (if I would believe we landed men on the moon) how difficult is it to protect these satellites with Apollo grade aluminum shielding?

There's a big difference between a satellite that will presumably spend years in space and a craft that will spend weeks in space (with only a couple hours of that in the VABs).

The Apollo believers want to hear from the experts with credentials.

Originally posted by theability
No matter what I'll take the PhD's explanation of events over your assessment any day.

So when I receive a personal reply from one of the brightest, working for NASA, in relation to the lecture she presented in one of JW's radiation videos, no one wants to talk about it.

I think this is extremely important to the Apollo shielding question as it casts serious doubts on the role of aluminium in protecting the astronauts. In fact, it seems the aluminium had the potential to make the radiation environment MORE hazardous.

After Pinke posted this statement...

Look at it this way. Suppose you are inside an enclosure. A bullet
strikes the outside and sets off a cascade of ping-pong balls on the
inside. Which would you rather have hit you, the bullet, or the ping-
pong balls?

This is what Dr. Blakely Ph.D. M.S. B.A. had to say about that analogy.

email from Dr. Eleanor Blakely
To use the comparison made in your message, this means that indeed depending on the particle energy and atomic number, ping pong balls could be more damaging than the bullet! The fragmentation event that produced the "ping pong balls" also can produce secondary radiations such as neutrons which we have not talked about in this conversation.

So unless you think you're smarter than Dr. Blakely, I think this pretty much proves the aluminium shielding was not the most appropriate material to use.

What do others think about what the Dr. is suggesting?

Original post is here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...