Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

reply to post by DJW001

so I invented a story about an Apollo capsule orbiting around the northern polar region. I never believed that... - Jarrah White

Oh! Oooo! My sides are splitting!

That is the game folks! White did himself in. And his defenders should take a long look at their indefensible position. Every single point has been articulately refuted by facts and evidence. Case closed imho.

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM

 

There is a growing suspicion that JW is a paid propagandist for an unknown power. Until you can prove that he is not being paid by the same mysterious benefactors as Sibrel (et al?) you had better find a more reliable source.

Hahaha, you're great fun.

Even more so when I imagine your face as you type this stuff.

*Post proof that Jarrah is funded by an 'unknown power'.

If you don't know, then how do you know?

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Exuberant1]

It's the same logic used in saying 'prove some random meteor wasn't Apollo' ... It's the same logic used in implying that everyone is a propagandist.

It isn't quite the same logic as stating the 9/11 planes had NASA logos but there you go.

So much wrong with this thread - everyone sinking to the lowest common denominator, using buzz words, and not actually interested in the truth. Every now and then someone will ride into the thread in their chariot and try to bring logic to the huddled masses but really ...

The debate has dissolved to finger pointing to avoid making real points much like Jarrah's Phil Plait video. Satweaver's photos were perfect for me, yet totally not acknowledged here. People just come in and get frustrated and become like everyone else.

I still feel the same way that this is mostly pointless, though I do enjoy glancing here now and then.

Also I'd point out that Jarrah being a disinfo agent is just as believable as many of the things you, I, and others subscribe to here on ATS so there's not much point in dismissing it.




[edit on 3-8-2010 by Pinke]

reply to post by Pinke


no shiz .. please more of this Young Aussie genius ?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by DJW001

 

Jarrah White's reply:

Anyway, with Van Allen's statement in mind, I thought I'd see how many pro-NASA propagandists would confirm the impossibility of getting there after being launched from Florida: so I invented a story about an Apollo capsule orbiting around the northern polar region. I never believed that, I knew to make an orbit you must orbit the whole planet: I just wanted to see if anyone would confirm the impossibility of doing what Van Allen suggest after being launched from the equator: I didn't have to wait long.

letsrollforums.com...

So, either Jarrah made a goof and covered it by inventing a story to explain it, or he deliberately invented a story he didn't believe (ie;lie) in order to trick his detractors into making a statement he can twist and use against them. Which type of liar do you think Jarrah White is?


[edit on 3-8-2010 by DJW001]

This reminds me of when I used to try and debate 9/11 topics years ago, there was some guy peddling the usual unscientific BS DVDs (which you could BUY shock horror!) and things got quite unpleasant when I would clearly demonstrate that the arguments were flawed and the information was being presented in a deceptive manner.
Anyway the guy had a couple of shills on the forums going around tooting his horn much like our friend foos does with JW and once one of them actually U2Ud me. I don't have the original anymore but it was along the lines of "whose side are you on, blah blah".
I replied that I wasn't taking a side, I was simply showing that the evidence was wrong and that if there is a valid argument to be made it should be won with honesty, integrity and most importantly accurate information. I added that doing anything else would simply make us as bad as the very institution we claim be fighting against.
His reply (basically):
"Who cares if you have to lie to get the point across, all that matters is people don't believe the offical story!"
This was quite a high up guy from what I could make out in the 9/11 'truth' world and frankly it's just scary.

Not forgetting my daily thinly veiled insult, the average IQ of a University graduate is only 125 - 134, this is still superior than approximately 98% of the population and basically means if your IQ is in this range you are in the top 2% brightest people in the populace, obviously if you exceed this then it is higher still.
There are approx 190 stars supporting this thread and probably about 5 of us regularly bothering to post rebutting the wild claims. You could say that only 2.5% of the thread viewers agree with and understand the evidence that we went to the Moon.
If you look at the figures I have just presented there is certainly a pattern......

I should add that I have made no serious attempt to collect accurate data, I have presented it in a highly flawed manner and it does not take into account various variables. Nor is it really an accurate data set to make such a comparison as you should only really have member views vs stars, or pro vs anti posters, etc.
But using these two different datasets and forming the hypothesis in this way does present the view I wish it to so who cares, I know most people reading this thread certainly won't. After all sloppy and inaccurate science never hurt anyone did it? Who cares as long as you get your point across and people believe it.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by AgentSmith]

reply to post by Pinke

So much wrong with this thread - everyone sinking to the lowest common denominator, using buzz words, and not actually interested in the truth.

I consider myself duly chastised. I apologize for using innuendo and half formed arguments. I would not accept it from an opponent in a debate and I am ashamed to have resorted to it here. I just didn't sleep very well last night, I guess. From here on I will try to refrain from intellectually cheap shots.

reply to post by Pinke


Sorry If you're interested there is a thread from a few years back where all the subjects were tackled in greater detail. You'll even find a few posts from me back when I could be bothered (before I realised I was wasting my time)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by jra

Originally posted by FoosM
Ok, according to the evidence given by these two videos, satellites generally dont fly within the belts.

From your source, which I noticed you didn't put a link to, as usual

Killer Electrons

Killer electrons are found in the outer of the two belts. (Ions collect mostly in the inner belt and can also damage spacecraft.) The outer belt is highest above Earth at the equator, usually at an altitude of 13,000 to 19,000 km (8,000 to 12,000 miles), where many spacecraft are positioned. GPS (Global Positioning System) satellites are found there, for example. But intense solar activity can push it in much closer and impair even more satellites.

Emphasis mine.

Your own link shows that your claim is wrong. Oops.

Satellites might avoid the strongest regions of the VAB, but they still fly through areas of the belts themselves. Especially MEO and HEO satellites. link

Well actually I did put a link but it didnt show up when I posted.
Blame the new modifications on the ATS board.
Doesnt matter, googling text is just as good.

Yes, thats what the article says that GPS system are there. But GPS sats are not commercial, they are run by the US military. They very well could have hardened the electronics for operation in the belts and are using the belts for defensive measures. Who knows, I haven't looked into it deeply.

You stated that countries would be complaining about falling satellites, etc. Well other countries are complaining saying that the radiation models that NASA is using is antiquated and their satellites are being damaged by the belts.

During the current sunspot cycle which began in 1996, we have lost over $2 billion in satellites from these kinds of problems. Scientists want learn as much about the radiation belts as they can, so that they can better predict what will happen to satellites and humans operating in space.


The radiation belts and plasma in the Earth’s magnetosphere pose hazards to satellitesystems which restrict design and orbit options with a resultant impact on missionperformance and cost. For decades the standard space environment specification used bythe engineering community has been provided by the NASA AE-8 and AP-8 trappedradiation belt models. There are well-known limitations on their validity, however, and aconsensus has been growing among satellite engineers that a new standard trappedradiation and plasma model is needed for modern spacecraft design and mission planning purposes.

due to discrete events associated with Single Event Effects (SEEs) orelectrostatic discharge. The radiation environment specification which system engineersdesign to is a critical factor driving capability versus survivability tradeoffs. Spacecraftflown in orbits where a more severe radiation environment is anticipated require moreexpensive radiation hardened components and/or greater shielding mass which constrainlaunch options, limit performance and drive costs higher.

To meet satellite design needs the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), the Air ForceResearch Laboratory (AFRL), the Aerospace Corporation, Los Alamos NationalLaboratory (LANL) and the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) formed a partnership in2006 to produce an improved version of the trapped radiation belt and plasma models,hereafter denoted AE-9 and AP-9 for electrons and protons, respectively. Continuation ofthe requirements dialogue with the space engineering community was and continues to bea priority.

radbelts.gsfc.nasa.gov...
lws-set.gsfc.nasa.gov...

At any rate, why are you saying I'm wrong? I simply posted two videos contradicting your claim and asked you if you were willing to change your stance on your viewpoint, or have evidence to the contrary. At this point, you now have two sources that say satellites dont normally operate in the belts, and one source that says GPS does, how much further are you willing to go to establish what the true situation is for our readers?

Well I did more research for you and what I have discovered backs what JW has claimed, that most satellites orbit, under, between or above the belts. Satellites dont have orbits in the belts.

See this figure:


to be clear:

Based on the location of orbits satellites can be divided into three categories that is geosynchronous earth orbit, low earth orbit and medium earth orbit. Location of orbits is the distance of orbits from earth’s surface.

One reason for having different reasons is due to the existence of two Van Allen belts. A Van Allen is a layer that contains charged particles. A satellite orbiting in one of these two belts would be totally destroyed by the energetic charged particles. The medium earth orbits are located between these two belts. The frequencies reserved for satellite microwave communication are in gigahertz range.

infopool.webverve.com...

I find this telling:

Since spacecraft systems can't be shielded from them, they have to be able to survive an "Attack of the Killer Electrons". To design this kind of tough system, engineers need to understand more about the radiation effects from these particle events than we do now. Scientists will be coordinating data from over a dozen current and future spacecraft in the magnetosphere. This will lead us to a better understanding of how killer electrons are accelerated, why the acceleration occurs when it does, and how the particles fade away after an event. There is a lot left to learn.

www.nasa.gov...

So scientists are discovering all kinds of nasty stuff that 9 apollo missions didnt discover, or in this case, could not be shielded against. And they had no trouble whatsoever. Incredible.

Foos you seem to be oblivious to your most obvious mistake, you are comparing problems with long term exposure to radiation over a period of years for satellites with a transit time of few hours for Apollo.

Originally posted by FoosM
Yes, thats what the article says that GPS system are there. But GPS sats are not commercial, they are run by the US military. They very well could have hardened the electronics for operation in the belts and are using the belts for defensive measures. Who knows, I haven't looked into it deeply.

That's your biggest problem Foos, you're so busy shilling for Jarrah you don't look at anything deeply enough.But let's get this straight, you're happy to accept the Satellites can be shielded but for some reason Apollo couldn't?
Your arguments are rambling and illogical, you lack even the most fundamental understanding of the physical processes involved to present a logical and scientifically viable argument and you're quite frankly nothing more than a loyal shill to a bunch of money hungry Internet media entrepreneurs. The funny thing is they probably don't even believe the rubbish they sell you and your peers!
Everyone knows one of the best ways to make a quick buck on the Internet is to string together some drivel based on one of the popular conspiracy theories and shove it out there. Especially if you tell people how you're not charging for it and 'the truth needs to get out'. Then you watch the advertising revenue just roll on in! Always plenty of gullible people out there lapping it up sadly...

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM

 

So lets try this again, where in his video did Jarrah lie? Or are you willing to be a honorable person and admit you made a mistake or even purposely tried to tarnish JW's credibility? Are you man enough to do so?

Pay attention, Foos, I have already addressed this issue.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Why are you so insistent that I find a lie in that particular video? After all, it's just one of many, and that video you keep linking to is not the original Moonfaker video, as you well know and I can prove. It was edited between it's original post in 2007 and now. In addition to the two specific examples I have already provided concerning his deceitfulness, perhaps you would like to hear it from his own mouth:

I know what you have posted, and what you posted did not back-up your claim that JW lied in his video. If you continue dodging this issue, then you will look like a liar yourself. So if you have evidence provide it, otherwise, retract and apologize. Real evidence would include posting the original video for example or JW admitting he edited the video.

I think he more than adequately demonstrated his point Foos, but as usual you ignore it and hope that readers won't notice and take your word for it.
Don't you people ever step back and think, "Hang on... I'm having to lie and deceive so much now to 'prove' my point... maybe it's wrong?"
Don't you ever become suspicious that all the people that disagree with you have high levels of education and scientific understanding? Or are we all part of the conspiracy?
Don't you think it's a little odd each time a conspiracy guru with their anonymous donours come forward with an Aladin's cave of videos, the presentation manner and the online presence all form a text-book internet marketing campaign? The guy is practically selling e-books, what next? Amway? Can you buy his videos on Clickbank yet? How do you become an affiliate?
Don't you think it's a little odd Jarrah hosted a site with his Moonfaker video where you could enter a competition for $10 via PayPal? that doesn't scream 'Honest guy who wants to get truth out' to me Foos, that's blatantly 'mmm These Moon landing conspiracy people are pretty gullible and there's a big market, now how can I cash in on this..?'

The sad thing is it's not just us laughing at the Jarrah fanboys, I guarantee he's sat there laughing at them too!
Keep spreading the good word about the videos, there's only one guy getting rich at the top.

HEY!! Paging FoosMasoos!!

You adore YouTube videos, no??

Here ya go>



Pay close attention. (Oh...I know YOU won't. This really is for the ones who bump into this thread, at this point, and haven't had time to see the whole thing, to soak it all in...so this is a quick way to demolish "Jarrah White", and his sycophants' nonsense bovine excrement).

I suggest that those interested follow along with other videos by this same person, and some other YouTubers who bring a dose of logic, science and reality to this topic.

reply to post by FoosM


They can't even answer the video about where buzz gets all angry about. They just call it Siebril's fake video. yet it shows the apollo 11 crew in color. They just spin words. I wonder if these people are NASA boys? They sure have a lot of time now that the constellation project has been canceled.

reply to post by AgentSmith

But using these two different datasets and forming the hypothesis in this way does present the view I wish it to so who cares, I know most people reading this thread certainly won't. After all sloppy and inaccurate science never hurt anyone did it? Who cares as long as you get your point across and people believe it.

hmmm hello pot! hello kettle!


The same way is if you can't go to the moon the right way. Then why not just fake it? Who cares about it being real as long as you get your point across and people believe it.

Why can't other countries go to moon? They have the same technology as we did. But they can't make it.

hmmmm



[edit on 3-8-2010 by dragnet53]

reply to post by dragnet53


drag, I know you were paying attention. Each time you've asked this, or brought it up, it has been addressed. This is like, what? The fifth or sixth time??

They can't even answer the video about where buzz gets all angry about...

There is a word for what you are doing, by lying about something that has already been covered, and making false statements as to whether or not it was addressed.

I'm trying to remember what that word is called....starts with a 'T', and that means 'trouble'....at least that's how I remember it so far....

THAT has been answered each and every time, and YOU KNOW THIS!!

It was answered by several ATS members, multiple times. And you know this!

Face it...you, FoosM, WWu777 and especially "Jarrah White" are all way, way out of your depths, here. Up over your head in the lies, and deception.

Blub....Blub....Blub. (..the sound of failure, as the "hoaxists" sink under the weight of their own ineptitude...)

~~~~~

Here. For your convenience, and for the convenience of anyone else who cares (if they're really, really bored some day) is a sample of the most recent saved posts of yours, from this thread. Looks like six pages' worth.

I invite you, and those who are bored, as mentioned, to stroll through YesterdayLand and review the number of times the question of "Buzz in the video" (this is the ambush video, of course) was asked.

THEN, people can focus in on the proper location of your question, in the thread, and review the answers.

Link to dragnet53's posts, in this thread.



[edit on 3 August 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


lmao

But I love the childish antics this thread has gotten because of FOosm bringing forth evidence. when things like that happen you know you are winning a debate.

As I have stated if USA can go to the moon then why can't Russia? If Russia and USA are partners now. Why not help Russia go to the moon? Help them achieve their goal they couldn't do on their own. Interesting how no other country can send a man to the moon. You do realize when somebody invent something other countries make it better? Just like the USA invented the computer and the Japanese made it better.





[edit on 4-8-2010 by dragnet53]

[edit on 4-8-2010 by dragnet53]

reply to post by FoosM

I know what you have posted, and what you posted did not back-up your claim that JW lied in his video. If you continue dodging this issue, then you will look like a liar yourself. So if you have evidence provide it, otherwise, retract and apologize. Real evidence would include posting the original video for example or JW admitting he edited the video.

Since you now seem to agree that the video you specifically challenged me over is not, as I have demonstrated the video in question we can only rely on the convergence of evidence. The original video was edited between the time that it was posted on the "International Moon Hoax Prize" page and its initial posting on Youtube. Jarrah White confirms this himself:

Here's the first two in a series of videos I have made, they are the results of my moon research.
To comply with youtube's regulations I had to cut the first video into four and the second video into two.

letsrollforums.com...
A comparison with this image, the first frame of the video posted on IMHP with the opening of the Youtube video posted on letsrollforums shows an immediate discrepancy:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f4c3426ff3a4.jpg[/atsimg]
This video, now missing, is the earliest version and shows the "James Bond" logo typical of Jarrah's early oeuvre. Significantly, secondary sources describe this opening in on-line discussions. Clearly, Jarrah took advantage of the editing process necessary to meet Youtube's Flash player requirements to alter the content as well as break up the length.

Now compare the "Ur-Moonfaker" to both the image of the, once again, now conveniently deleted first installment of the video on letsroll and the way it looks now:

It has been altered for a third time. Can you deny that Jarrah White has altered the content of the "Moonfaker" video at least twice? Why?

The same secondary sources that describe the original "Moonfaker" video's "James Bond" opening also state that Jarrah White introduces his art teacher as an "expert," with no further clarification as to her credentials. Would Jarrah do such a thing?

Jarrah White tried to imply that Ham radio operators could not monitor Apollo because "the frequency was forbidden to them." Not exactly a lie... Ham radio operators were forbidden to transmit, not to listen. But it was presented in such a way as to mislead the viewer. In intent, it was a lie. Introducing an art teacher as an "expert" is not a lie. Even a professional crocodile wrestler can truthfully be introduced as an "expert"... in crocodile wrestling. His failure to cite her credentials in the "Ur-Moonraker," was intentionally misleading, in effect, a lie.

Does Jarrah White deny that this is his modus operandi? No, on the contrary, he boasts of it:

Anyway, with Van Allen's statement in mind, I thought I'd see how many pro-NASA propagandists would confirm the impossibility of getting there after being launched from Florida: so I invented a story about an Apollo capsule orbiting around the northern polar region. I never believed that,

letsrollforums.com...
Given the accuracy of the secondary sources citing the "Ur-Moonfaker" and the self confessed duplicity of Jarrah White it is only logical to give more weight to one over the other.

Now I ask you: is someone who is single-mindedly devoted to completely rewriting World History capable rewriting his own? The physical evidence, such as it is in the form of the documented changes to "Moonfaker" says yes. The primary source, Jarrah White, confirms it in the above statement. The secondary sources tend to converge with this.

So, in the interests of both accuracy and integrity, allow me to apologize. Jarrah White is a self confessed liar. He intentionally misleads people. In the specific case of the "expert" in "The Ur-Moonfaker" I misspoke. What I should have said is: "the preponderance of physical and documentary evidence converges upon the likelihood that Jarrah White lied in his original 'Moonfaker' video."

There, I manned up. Are you ready to explicitly acknowledge that the video you made such an issue about was not the video I was referring to, nor did I ever claim it was?

Edit to fix formatting.
Darn you Error 404!


[edit on 4-8-2010 by DJW001]

[edit on 4-8-2010 by DJW001]

[edit on 4-8-2010 by DJW001]


[edit on 4-8-2010 by DJW001]

Originally posted by dragnet53


The same way is if you can't go to the moon the right way. Then why not just fake it? Who cares about it being real as long as you get your point across and people believe it.

Why can't other countries go to moon? They have the same technology as we did. But they can't make it.

hmmmm

Technology isnt the problem: money and manpower is.

It took over 400,000 people to develop the hardware and software used in the Apollo program. You should look into it sometime, it was a massive feat (and as you guys like videos, check out the Moon Machines series which covers the vehicles of Apollo and shows a lot of test footage etc that you probably havent seen before...a hell of a lot better than any of JW's poor efforts i can tell you!).

So quite simply that is the reason no one else has done it, it costs too much for no apparent benefit. Consider not only the hardware itself, but all of the manufacturing and test facilities required to build the things. Thats also the reason that Apollo cant be duplicated right now: its not because the knowledge has been lost or its technically too difficult, its because the manufacturing and testing facilities arent there and it would cost a massive amount of money to build them.

In terms of why the money was spent, the USA did it for a very specific reason, and there was a very clear benefit. They were trying to defeat the USSR at the time and the strategy was simple: get them to spend as much as possible on their military and space programs. There was also the fact that they needed to demoralise the USSR as much as possible. The Apollo program played right into the cold war strategy of the USA for both those goals. This massive spending race is eventually what undid communism in the USSR.

Without some kind of end goal or objective, no country is going to spend the time and money to develop a lunar program in any hurry. It'll be done piecemeal, eventually, as numerous countries are currently planning.
All of this should be pretty obvious if you understand the program and the steps that needed to be taken to get to the moon.

[edit on 4-8-2010 by zvezdar]

Originally posted by dragnet53
As I have stated if USA can go to the moon then why can't Russia?

Unsurprisingly you just don't get it do you? The question isn't why can't Russia go to the Moon, it's why don't Russia go to the Moon?

Why would Russia want to go to the Moon?
There is no logical reason, particularly in the current global economic climate, to undertake such a venture. The US won the space race and with that there is no longer the incentive to go there was before. 2nd Place is the first loser, not really a goal worth spending a huge budget on.
The USSR knew that America had been, so it's not like they felt they had to disprove it somehow. Predictably the vast amount of, if not all, people who don't believe we went never make it into any position of influence or power, so it's a non issue to all the significant people concerned.
All the big budget programs are done for political or monetary gain and neither is to be gained by any country going to the moon at present. There is no way to economically mine any resources that may be available and make a profit and as I already said, now the goal has been achieved there is no political gain either.
The Governments are all obessed with war and their international reputation, even the Moon program was carried out with this in mind, it's not like Star Trek where all everyone cares about is to 'Boldly go where no man has gone before'. I'm sure the individuals involved probably do feel this passionate about it, but sadly the people up top holding the purse strings have more sinister motives on their mind.

With the current Global economic crisis any country spending vast amounts of money on a manned space program would be looked at as irresponsible to say the least and any government in power making such a decision could look forward to being voted out at the next election. Lets face it, do you think John and Doris down the road really care about a Moon base when the roads are a state, rubbish isn't being picked up and they just had their Child Support cut?
It's all so simple to understand it boggles the mind you don't get it, not to mention it begs the question why try and comprehend complicated subjects when you can't even grasp the fundamentals?

[edit on 4-8-2010 by AgentSmith]

LOL I love this thread. I now know why it continues on. It is so a certain clique can get stars in each post they make. What an easy way to "earn" stars.

reply to post by dragnet53

LOL I love this thread. I now know why it continues on. It is so a certain clique can get stars in each post they make. What an easy way to "earn" stars.

One thing you've got to realize about people like this, is that when trying to discredit someone the propagandists will often give a description of themselves when talking about [their opponents].

--Jarrah White
letsrollforums.com...