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FTL a possibility? An ancient fable, a discussion and an interesting paper. Expertise needed!

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posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:39 AM
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Part 1.

I don´t know if this thread should go into General Conspiracy, Skunk works or even Alien thread groups. Mods feel free to move.


Help of ATS members skilled in relative and quantum physics but mainly advanced mathematics needed!

I ever wondered about FTL travel and physics about it, even before ATS. Never in life I would think that I would find an ancient fable and eyewitness acount from our ancestors about an actual Hyperspace/Subspace artificial phenomena acompaniyng an Ancient Astronaut starship or finding a hole in Einsteins´ famous equations as big as the Pacific ocean(Gut alert) or an NASA/AIRFORCE essay on trends in theoretical aero-space aeronautics with descriptions of fantastic, unbelievable, sci-fact not -fi, forms of travel not only to oher planets but stars.
I couldn´t find the thread on ATS , therefore I am posting. Please enjoy.

(GUT alert) I heard once about an central African tribe (I think it was the Dogons) that had a legend about an "Heavenly evil" coming dows in a "metal chariot" ......
(the Dogons have a word in their language for the "Sky" plus a word for "Heaven", like the jews, and well ... we "modern" and "alternative knowledge" people know that by heaven they meant "SPACE")
....... that wanted to enslave them. It was very good described as it was loudly descending down to the surface and as "hell" flames were encompasing the bottom of the "chariot" (landing and manuevering rockets). When it descended and touched down, a few moments later the "Good guys" came and banished the evil (The Dogons main "God" was the leader of the benevolent intervention force ... "Good Guys").
The interesting fact about this is that the Benevolents, as I will call them from now, haven´t come as the malevolent ones ... quotation: ... " an opening ("rip") in the sky opened, winds raveging towards it ("into an through it"), through which the "blackness" of "heavens" was vissible afterwhich an another silent "silver chariot" descendeding and expeling the evil ones."
Guys, gals couldn´t this be an eyewitness account of an actual Babylon5/Frespace/Stargate type FTL star-drive.

Dogon people on Wiki

Neverthenless, for you, I do know that the Dogons don´t have a good reputation here on ATS and moreover this not my main point. Let us think in sci-fact context and not sci-fi ... it pi..es me off that the many History Channel, Discovery etc. programmes on SETI, Däniken and Aliens always tend to end how it is sad, difficult, or even impossible for the Aliens to come here to Earth qutation: " ... THEY SIMPLY CANNOT EXCEED THE SPEED OF LIGHT"(I am not the one who is shouting, that "reputable" moron was it). Come on people, we know two things definately about the Existence (I said Existance, because we don´t know if the Multi-Verse theory has some value, which I think has, but I am tolerant) ... thats that we know absolutely bullocks about it and that it has a bad habit of kicking our theories on it and our "reputable" (
I would say worse things like deceitful, corruptible, ignorant, deaf, defeatist and even in someplaces fanatic) scietists into their waxy groins to Mars and beyond.
For example I will show you a scientific disputation that I had with a very inteligent person, which gave me a new meaning for the phrase "turning upside down":

(snippet from a FanFiction.com Forum on Stargate: Return of the Ancients FanFic)

Me and the Author:

Subject: Stargate: Return of the Ancients,Episode 14 Episode, "Multiplication", Absolute Acceleration Limit.

Durabys, Mar 20th, 2:48pm
The discussion between McKay and Stevenson, simply put ... I am flabergasted ... less than McKay but , yeah ... could you elaborate on it ... please ... if you changed the laws of physics for the SG universe and how you did it or if you found a hole of the size of the Pacific in E=m*c^2 or if you see another interpretation of that law. Thanks.

Aer-ki Jyr, Mar 22nd, 2:56pm
The answer is both...Stargate has many instances that defy the theory of relativity and the theory itself is bogus.

For example, the Tria and how that was explained. If Einstein was right, the crew would have been 'slowed down' and unable to respond in real time.

Another is the laser the Tolin use for communications. The implications of the episode hint at a complete lack of understanding of science on the part of Earth, including Relativity.

Also, when the gate is connected to the wormhole, the time dilation is in advance of the gravity, which relativity states must be connected, one for the other.

On the real side, the theory is bogus based on simple logic: a relative measurement cannot have an absolute limit.

Thus, speed being a relative measurement, there cannot be a lightspeed limit. Elementary science.

Plus, if speed is a relative measurement, you can't base time dilation off of it. If an object is moving .5 lightspeed from one perspective and 0mph from another, does time dilation occur or not? See, it requires an absolute measurement...speed is relative, therefore they can't be interconnected.

Personally, I think the math of relativity appears to be correct because the nature of light is a pattern. Blue light can look to be red light if it is slowed. If you don't know it's been slowed, it seems light blue light traveling at light speed. Thus, from a certain point of view, light will always appear to intercept the target at light speed. The individual particles of light might be going faster or slower, but the eye only measures the gap between the particles, otherwise known as the wavelength.

So, a burst of radio waves from a galaxy moving towards us might appear as gamma rays to our eyes/photo receptors. It's RELATIVE because our eyes don't measure speed, they measure gap, and gap is relative to the movement of the target compared to the source.

Ignore the supposed 'proof' of relativity. Until we get into space there can't be a valid test without sufficient straightline speeds. And if you take a very close look at the 'tests' you'll find flaws. Right now Einstein is being held up as a scientific God and protected as one.

The theory of relativity is wrong, a good try on Einstein's part, but still wrong...in both reality and stargate.


End of Part 1.

TO BE CONTINUED, please don´t post, yet.


[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]

[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]

[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]




posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:52 AM
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Part 2.
Durabys
Thanks. Then good. I want a crude asuption from you ... how this will affect accelerated sub-atomic particles at nearly-luminal speeds ... and beyond them ... booth in mass, energy and interaction with each other. Plus if possible behaving of space and time itself and the the energetic needs for this "stunt". Is there somewhere a "trick" like like positioning the observer into diferent reference system in fast succesion or the rapid increase and decrease of G forces (by the fold of 100s and 1000s G´s). I am studying 1st year physics on the Carl´s University in Prague and I am really open to new ideas (dont worry we will study Einstein in the second Academic year
, you dont have to worry that I will be ** off at you. I want really hear your ideas, moreover I will share the Nobel with you afterwards, kay).

Aer-ki Jyr
Ok...here goes. First off, all SPEEDS are relative to the point from which they are measured. Road speeds aren't absolute either, they're measured from the surface of the planet and most people forget about that.
For example...how fast are you moving now? 0mph?
If you measure from the ground then yes, 0mph. But why measure from the ground? Why not the center of the Earth? That puts you around 800mph in Europe, 1000mph along the equator.
But wait, why the center of the Earth? Why not the Sun? Not sure what the orbital speed of the Earth is, but several thousands of miles an hour at least.

But wait again, why not the center of the galaxy? Uh oh, not all galaxies are sitting 'still'. Which galaxy do we use as centerpoint of the universe?
The fact is there IS NO CENTERPOINT of the universe. All speeds are RELATIVE. It's just a matter of perspective, not physics.
This means that all scientific assumptions based purely off of 'speed' are defaultly wrong. 0mph and 2xlightspeed can be the same object at the same time, just measured from different points.
The trick of the matter is the acceleration and impacts.
First off, forget the whole 'space-time' continuum. No such thing. Empty space is just empty space, there's nothing there to bend or manipulate. True vacumm is just that...nothing.

Take two objects in that vacuum. The only real speed that matters is the difference in their movements. Rate of change of distance between the two. Assuming neither are accelerating and are simply 'at rest' the interaction between the two if they hit is simply a product of their mass and velocity no matter what that velocity is.

Now, if one of those objects emits a particle, that particle will impact the other object at a speed adjusted for both the source and the destination.
For example, if a particle of light is emitted at lightspeed and the two objects are closing towards each other at a combined rate of .25 lightspeed, then the particle of light will impact the other object at a velocity of 1.25 lightspeed.

To the receiver on the second object, it might look like a higher frequency beam of light moving at lightspeed because the 'apparent gap' between particles is much shorter, but the individual particles of light will be moving at 1.25LS.

This is why RED/BLUE Shift exists.

Now, the trickier part. Is there a lightspeed limit to anything?

It seems so. Not in maximum speed since that is a relative measurement, but in INSTANTANEOUS ACCELERATION. This is what I call the 'jump' light gets when emitted from an atom. It was moving 0mph, then all of a sudden it's traveling at lightspeed. Whatever mechanics within the atom make this work, it seems(for the moment)that nothing in the universe can PUSH faster than this. Maybe there is another force out there that can and we haven't found it yet, but for the moment Lightspeed is the apparent limit for instantaneous acceleration.

This also comes into effect with the subatomic particle accelerators you mentioned. Since the accelerators use magnetics to PUSH the particles, they can't accelerate them past lightspeed because the machine can't PUSH faster than lightspeed. It's like a trying to throw a ball at 100mph but your arm can't go faster than 50mph. The fastest you could throw it would be 50mph, but you'd never manage that because the ball has mass which would slow the mechanics of your arm down a little. So the more power you applied the closer you would get to 50mph, but you'll never make it all the way. It's logically impossible without extraneous factors.
This is the arguement with Einstein and others that they've gotten completely wrong. It's all based on one little fact...we're talking about a BALLISTIC OBJECT.

Faster than light travel between stars is possible because a ship isn't ballistic, it's self propelled, and given sufficient fuel there is no limit to the speed that it can attain relative to the point of departure.
However, once it surpasses lightspeed, any signal sent back to earth will be limited by instantaneous acceleration and not be able to overcome the ship's forward momentum and actually travel slightly away from the planet...creating a communications blackout. Because of this, travel is possible, but the only way to communicate between stars is by courior ship unless some other, faster means of instantaneous acceleration is discovered, such as a particle that can travel faster than lightspeed or some means of manipulating gravity(if gravity effect travels faster than LS, which I don't know whether it does or not).

One last note...G forces. We only notice this change in 'state of rest', if you want to call it that, if the affect is unevenly distributed. Gravity affects all molecules simultaneously, which is why astronauts in orbit don't feel the acceleration even though it's happening in order to alter their straight line trajectory into a curve.

So, theoretically, if you could accelerate an object EVENLY you would have acceleration without Gs. Sort of an inertial dampener in real life. The acceleration does happen, and your 'state of rest' changes, you're just not aware of it.

Oh, and by the way, the reason we don't see celestial objects traveling faster than lightspeed is because of the galactic spiral. Objects going that fast would spin out of the galaxy, objects going too slow would be pulled into the center...which leaves all stars and other matter in the galaxy traveling at APPROXIMATELY the same speed, with variations of 1000s of mph that aren't really noticeable on a galactic scale ... to be CONTINUED.


End of Part 2.

[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:02 AM
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Part 3.

CONTINUATION ... Ae-kyr ... I usually think of this as the 'galactic medium', which will be problamatic for interstellar travel because every bit of dust and rock out there will be traveling at this rate...and if you hit a marble while traveling 10xlightspeed you can either kiss your ship goodbye or be skewered with a small hole all the way through. The physicals at those impact velocities aren't distorted, but they are some freakingly huge numbers.

(End of snippet from a FanFiction.com Forum on Stargate: Return of the Ancients FanFic)

The next is a paper that I probably have found on Google, I don´t know, I could have found it here on ATS, then please don´t flame me becuse of that. It is a very interesting and enlightening reading, even that I don´t understand a third of it.
Here is a snippet:

Recent Trends in Aerospace Design and Optimization



The paper discusses the current status of space transportation and then presents an overview of the two main research topics on advanced propulsion as pursued by the authors, namely the use of electromagnetic interaction (Lorentz force) as well as a novel concept, based on ideas of a unified theory by the late German physicist B. Heim, termed field propulsion. In general, electromagnetics is coupled to the Navier-Stokes equations and leads to magnetohydrodynamics (MHD). Consequently, the ideal MHD equations and their numerical solution based on an extended version of the HLLC (Harten-Lax-van Leer-Contact discontinuity) technique is presented. In particular, the phenomenon of waves in MHD is discussed, which is crucial for a successful numerical scheme. Furthermore, the important topic of a numerically divergence free magnetic induction field is addressed. Twodimensional simulation examples are presented. In the second part, a brief discussion of field propulsion is given. Based on Einstein's principle of geometrization of physical interactions, a theory is presented that shows that there should be six fundamental physical interactions instead of the four known ones. The additional interactions
(gravitophoton force) would allow the conversion of electromagnetic energy into gravitational energy where the vacuum state provides the interaction particles. This kind of propulsion principle is not based on the momentum principle and would not require any fuel. The paper discusses the source of the two predicted interactions, the concept of parallel space (in which the limiting speed of light is nc, n being an integer, c denoting vacuum speed of light), and presents a brief introduction of the physical model along with an experimental setup to measure and estimate the so called gravitophoton (Heim-Lorentz) force. Estimates for the magnitude of magnetic fields are presented, and trip times for lunar and Mars missions are given.


I haven´t realized that the US goverment openly discusses such, very well, "weird" theories. Why would they do it, if there, officialy, isn´t a piece of concrete evidence in it. Hmm ... interesting.

Hyperlink to SCRIBD: Recent Trends in Aerospace Design and Optimization

(sorry, I wanted to upload it to ATS, but the da..ed MEDIA site, says I [qutation: You do not have permission to submit media! ], my password and profile are the same as on ATS, I don´t understand)

End of Part 3.FINAL.

You can begin to flame me . And debate this and it´s probability of use in the future.



[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]

[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]



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