Man 'hasn't eaten, drunk in 70 years'

reply to post by drew hempel


I am unable to quote it, as it has been removed by a moderator.

Now, I'm getting off topic, so let's not have this conversation. You can U2U me if you wish to pursue this further.

On topic: Although some interesting points have been made, I am unable to accept that a person survived for 70 years without food or water.

Perhaps he believes he has. Dehydration causes the brain to dry out, rendering one confused. I do accept that he can go for probably long periods of time with nothing, but the time he gives is not believable. I do not believe it, despite his intensive spirituality and meditation.

I don't want to call him a liar or a hoaxer, so I chose to believe he is demented, and believes what he is saying. ~Although I do not.

reply to post by drew hempel


You've got nothing to prove.

We both know this to be true.

Let the thread and links speak for their selves.

If people choose to follow the knowledge, and try some of the methods, so be it.

If not, what of it?

You've provided rational explanations for how this can be done.

Some people just can't get passed their current belief systems.

This is 99.999999% of humanity.

One mind at a time.

We can't possibly expect to awaken them all at once...

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Fair enough.

I only recommend you read "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Yogananda.

My dad gives me his far-right wing political books to read. I read them but then he refuses to read the Noam Chomsky books I give him.

So? Can you do it? haha.

reply to post by unityemissions


Nothing to prove!

Yeah -- I do have "logical inference."

Edgar Allen Poe stated that logical inference is

"beyond genius."

Well he didn't say "logical inference" but that's what he was referring to.

And so it is. Logical inference being the "music of indeterminacy" as Poe referred to.

www.mindhacks.com...

The answer is amazingly found in the most famous short-story of Edgar Allen Poe who, as Edmund Wilson quotes, wrote that his goal in writing was the "indeterminateness of music." Poe, the creator of the mystery story, gives the reversal to Freud who, Sacks states: "despised music."

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Maybe...maybe not

 

Now we've done it!!
CAN I PROVIDE PROOF THAT I SURVIVED 8 DAYS ON JUST HALF A GLASS OF WATER!!
haha.
Now I've seen it all!!
Ah yes I understand now.
I've provided links to a qigong master who works with the Mayo Clinic.
Chunyi Lin has taught the Mayo Clinic doctors qigong.
Chunyi Lin has healed patients of the Mayo Clinic -- just watch the testimonials!
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
There you go -- the local news station corroboration that Ester Trejo was a Mayo Clinic patient who had a rare lung disease and needed a lung transplant... UNTIL SHE TOOK QIGONG CLASSES!!
Totally healed.

Drew hempel.....

I watched those 2 videos.

Whilst watching, it became apparent to me that you have misunderstood my position regarding mainstream medicine (wherein I spend my working life) vs non-mainstream medicine......which is fair enough because I haven't explained my position pertaining to that issue

I don't totally refute the idea that traditional chinese therapies & the like could be helpful in some instances, albeit this has not been proven in peer reviewed studies undertaken at prestigious institutions.

However I totally refute the idea that Indian guy hasn't eaten or drunk for 70 years.

Drew..... THAT is a straight out hoax by all concerned, designed to gain attention, publicity & money.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

[edit on 30-4-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

reply to post by drew hempel


Let's rewind here and see where things got lost.

You made reference to the following:
External Qigong for Chronic Pain, Results from a Randomized Controlled Clinical Study Jamia Hill, RN, DC; Anne Vincent, MD, Stephen Cha, PhD., Nisha Manek, MD, MRCP

Utilizing Spring Forest Qigong as a Self-Directed Treatment for Chronic Pain & Emotional Distress Jane F. Coleman, R.N., PhD Professor Emerita, Gustavus Adolphus College, St. Peter, MN

You claimed that "Chunyi Lin works with the top hospital in the world"

His name does not appear as an author.

I replied that these were poster session presentations, not papers.

I looked up the studies and these are titles of poster presentations at a conference. Please do not confuse these with peer reviewed studies. A poster session presentation is not the same as a completed study or a study has been through a formal review.

Your reply was the following which was said in a rather snide manner. That was uncalled for.

Actually the studies are BOTH presented in a conference and published in a peer-reviewed journal. Yes it's possible to do both -- amazingly.

I dismissed your snide remarks and asked

Actually you are again into misrepresentations. If someone is a test subject it does not mean that the person worked with the Mayo clinic. It means they were tested. You claim that tests were published in peer reviewed journals. All I found were poster sessions. Can you provide the journal citations?

Your response was more snide and pointless remarks following by 2 links to unrelated articles.

THANKS FOR FORCING ME TO DO REMEDIAL READING FOR YOU!!

Now that the narrative has been followed and you were were probably distracted by other posts, can you provide links to the articles you claim are derived from the articles you cited above?

reply to post by drew hempel


If I can find it, I will! I've made a note of your recommendation, Thanks.

I do have interest in this topic, and generally find it engrossing, and an intrinsically worthwhile topic for study. Fascinating stuff.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Yeah I know.

You'll find it:

www.crystalclarity.com...

ONLINE!!

www.crystalclarity.com...

THE WOMAN WHO NEVER EATS!!

"'I know Giri Bala well,' Sthiti Babu told me. 'She employs a certain yoga technique which enables her to live without eating. I was her close neighbor in Nawabganj near Ichapur.1 I made it a point to watch her closely; never did I find evidence that she was taking either food or drink. My interest finally mounted so high that I approached the Maharaja of Burdwan2 and asked him to conduct an investigation. Astounded at the story, he invited her to his palace. She agreed to a test and lived for two months locked up in a small section of his home. Later she returned for a palace visit of twenty days; and then for a third test of fifteen days. The Maharaja himself told me that these three rigorous scrutinies had convinced him beyond doubt of her non-eating state.'

[edit on 30-4-2010 by drew hempel]

reply to post by stereologist


You want me to repost my links for the THIRD TIME!!!

O.K. if you really need me to -- but first I have to go take a piss.

Hold on:

O.K. that was fun. No then... as the first lesson in our remedial reading class let's review the posts on this thread:

OH!! It was my FIRST post on this thread!

Well I'll be (a mother's uncle?") haha.

O.K. so on page four of this thread I gave the links to the bigu studies in a peer reviewed journal:

bst.sagepub.com...

homepages.ihug.co.nz...

Dr. Raymond Lee of San Diego State University has collaborated with the International Yan Xin Qigong Association on two very strict Bigu experiments, with twenty-four hour a day supervision. The two experiments were one month in duration and very successful. Preliminary experimental conclusions showed that during the supervised period, the average person in Bigu drank merely a half quart of plain water each day. Although people in this Bigu experiment needed to drink a little juice due to blood testing and other interfering factors, the amount of juice converted to energy was far below the energy standard level predicted by the present medical establishment for maintaining a normal life.

THEN ON PAGE EIGHT!!

I reference my first linkage to the peer reviewed bigu study:

O.K. I just posted the studies on fasting without water and food -- at the above link....

And then I give the CONFERENCE link:

www.wholepersonhealing.org...

AND LO!!!!!

The conference link lists the peer reviewed studies!!

Papers by Rustum Roy et al. * “Science and Whole Person Medicine: Enormous Potential in a New Relationship,” Bulletin of Science, Technology, & Society 22[5]: 374-390 (October 2002) * “The Bigu Phenomenon: An Introduction,” Bulletin of Science, Technology, & Society 22[5]: 391 (October 2002) Related Works, by Xin Yan et al. * Studies on the Fundamental Theory of Bigu (Food Abstinence)—Preliminary Experimental Observations of Cellular Bigu, Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society, Vol. 22, No. 5, October 2002, 392-396 * Homeostasis Is Maintained in Yan Xin Life Science Technology-Optimized Caloric Restriction: Physiological and Biochemical Studies, Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society, Vol. 22, No. 5, October 2002, 397-402 * External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of Phosphatidylinositol 3-Kinase, Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society, Vol. 22, No. 5, October 2002, 403-4

Well I'll be.... a monkey's uncle? haha.

reply to post by drew hempel


I've bookmarked it, and will begin it tomorrow, with pleasure. It looks interesting. Thanks.

Originally posted by drew hempel

Oh is that it? Those pesky international scientists.

DAMN THEM -- crashing down on Western myopic delusions!!

I personally dont have "myopic western delusions." I dont reject the possibility of there being things that are possible that we dont yet know or understand. I am certain there are things we have yet to know and understand. No problem.

What I reject are people who makes claims to abilities that are easily, very easily verifiable, and who dodge and shift and twist and do any manner of thing to avoid the testing required to verify supposed ability. Or who have people of questionable motive and integrity supposedly verify said ability.

Which is the case with inedia. There is, at present, NO evidence that human beings can go indefinitely without food and water. Certainly no evidence that we could survive 60-70 years.

I appreciate that you have read things that suggest that Qi can help with tumors. Very interesting stuff, and when it hits journals I do have access to, like Science, I look forward to reading it. They have recently published one on meditation and pain. Great stuff.

However, none of this acts to verify the claim that someone can live without eating and drinking for years or decades at a time.

Even for 10 days, it is no mean feat of discipline and self control to fast for that long. I couldnt do it. It is amazing what these people can train their bodies to do. But ten days is not 10 weeks, or 10 months, or 10 years.


Hopefully, the study currently underway is being conducted by professionals of integrity, and the person being studied will have no chance to cheat. It would be nice to have the case proved one way or the other. Time will tell.

I have my money on his being a fraud.

If I am proven wrong, by anything even approaching good science, I will gladly admit it.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Right -- so far I have a professor in San Diego who tested someone going without food and water for a month.

Haven't heard of it besides the link I posted which you've ignored?

MAYBE BECAUSE IT WASN'T COVERED ON MSM?

haha.

Ah but you're a scientist right? Not one to stoop to relying on what is solely covered by MSM right?

Not one to ignore the other scientists out there?

So then I posted a PEER-REVIEWED published study of a 15 day supervision of no food and no water.

Far enough! 15 days is not close to 70 years!!

And so I've posted a mountain in China where the master does 49 days of no food, no water and no sleep! qigongmaster.com...

Surely that's NOT Western science double-blinded peer-reviewed it is?

haha -- but then one of his students qigong master Chunyi Lin DID do the 49 day fast there without water, food and sleep and now Chunyi Lin is verified by the Mayo Clinic!

But then is Chunyi Lin verified for going 49 days without food, water and sleep?

Surely not -- except, of course, by his teacher in China and then he underwent follow up tests dealing with poisons and deadly electricity so that the government of China declared him an international qigong master.

And keep in mind the government of China is no slouch when it comes to qigong masters -- they have "national treasures" as qigong masters and then kick out frauds or political foes, etc. It's highly controlled and expensive and relies on their top scientists.

But that's China -- not double-blinded peer reviewed WESTERN SCIENCE!! I mean there is a 3,000 plus database of qigong science studies out of China published online by Harvard medical doctor Sancier.

Still a Harvard medical doctor? Surely that's not up to YOUR standards only equivalent to the most posh product made in a sweatshop at Mall of America down to the most precise machine-automated standards?

I jest of course!!

No we need a real study of going without water and food.

Not to mention some sort of model to explain it.

First we need SEVENTY YEARS of study to PROVE that a person can go

SEVENTY YEARS without food and water.

so then 70 years later --

we can MAYBE -- just maybe -- if humanity still exists (or if we haven't evolved the universe yet?)

we can finally propose a model to explain how a human could go without food and water

for 2 weeks much less 70 years.

Yep -- you got it down pat!!

Congratulations on a fine future in science. Good luck getting some nice corporate grant for that or maybe NSF or even DARPA!!

reply to post by drew hempel


I'm sorry I thought you misunderstood what a conference is all about. You clearly have no idea. That's no surprise.
You have given references to papers not associated with the articles you said were published in a peer reviewed journal. Fine. You can't.
You stated that Chunyi Lin works with the Mayo clinic. That also appears to be a fib.

Previously you misrepresented other papers.

Well I'll be.... a monkey's uncle? haha.

Apparently you are.

[edit on 30-4-2010 by stereologist]

reply to post by stereologist


Have I given references to papers not associated with the conference?

YOU MEAN I HAVE GIVEN REFERENCE TO PAPERS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE BIGU CONFERENCE!!???!!

O.K. let me get this straight:

I have

1) given references to papers not associated with the bigu conference.

2) And that has what to do with the papers which I referenced that are presented at the bigu conference?

3) Nothing.

4) Still I HAVE GIVEN REFERENCE TO PAPERS NOT PRESENTED AT THE BIGU CONFERENCE!!

WOW

Now on to your 2nd claim!

You want me to repost my links for the THIRD TIME!!!

O.K. if you really need me to -- but first I have to go take a piss.

Hold on:

O.K. that was fun. No then... as the first lesson in our remedial reading class let's review the posts on this thread:

OH!! It was my FIRST post on this thread!

Well I'll be (a mother's uncle?") haha.

O.K. so on page four of this thread I gave the links to the bigu studies in a peer reviewed journal:

bst.sagepub.com...

homepages.ihug.co.nz...

Dr. Raymond Lee of San Diego State University has collaborated with the International Yan Xin Qigong Association on two very strict Bigu experiments, with twenty-four hour a day supervision. The two experiments were one month in duration and very successful. Preliminary experimental conclusions showed that during the supervised period, the average person in Bigu drank merely a half quart of plain water each day. Although people in this Bigu experiment needed to drink a little juice due to blood testing and other interfering factors, the amount of juice converted to energy was far below the energy standard level predicted by the present medical establishment for maintaining a normal life.

THEN ON PAGE EIGHT!!

I reference my first linkage to the peer reviewed bigu study:

O.K. I just posted the studies on fasting without water and food -- at the above link....

And then I give the CONFERENCE link:

www.wholepersonhealing.org...

AND LO!!!!!

The conference link lists the peer reviewed studies!!

Papers by Rustum Roy et al. * “Science and Whole Person Medicine: Enormous Potential in a New Relationship,” Bulletin of Science, Technology, & Society 22[5]: 374-390 (October 2002) * “The Bigu Phenomenon: An Introduction,” Bulletin of Science, Technology, & Society 22[5]: 391 (October 2002) Related Works, by Xin Yan et al. * Studies on the Fundamental Theory of Bigu (Food Abstinence)—Preliminary Experimental Observations of Cellular Bigu, Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society, Vol. 22, No. 5, October 2002, 392-396 * Homeostasis Is Maintained in Yan Xin Life Science Technology-Optimized Caloric Restriction: Physiological and Biochemical Studies, Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society, Vol. 22, No. 5, October 2002, 397-402 * External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of Phosphatidylinositol 3-Kinase, Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society, Vol. 22, No. 5, October 2002, 403-4

Well I'll be.... a monkey's uncle? haha.



Right, now you've pi**ed me off with your arrogance, you are still posting crap, This is a remedial reading lesson for you, I have just been to this link that you have posted as evidence www.wholepersonhealing.org...

I then went to the first link in the papers section, www.wholepersonhealing.org...

The Summary - Quote "This article is an attempt to provide a framework within which the scientifically trained community can begin to approach whole person healing in a completely new way. From the empirical data presented by others, the author (who, although he has done no lab research of his own yet in this field, has had an excellent track record for 50 years in spotting valid new science) has come to the following conclusions:"

Can you see the problem with the above summary of a paper which you have presented as "Proof" of your theories.

"the author (who, although he has done no lab research of his own yet in this field,"........ discredited straight away, no research by himself, so he is printing articles about things people have told him,

"has had an excellent track record for 50 years in spotting valid new science", what a very strange statement to make, "has come to the following conclusions", these are "his" thoughts on the subject.. not fact! Peace

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by drew hempel

 

You stated that Chunyi Lin works with the Mayo clinic. That also appears to be a fib.


[edit on 30-4-2010 by stereologist]

I state the Chunyi Lin WORKS with the Mayo Clinic.

By work do you mean:

1) Chunyi Lin has an office at the Mayo Clinic?

NOPE

2) Chunyi Lin has coauthored a Mayo Clinic Medical Textbook chapter with a Mayo Clinic doctor?

YES

3) Chunyi Lin has taught the Mayo Clinic doctors qigong?

YES

4) Chunyi Lin is a Mayo Clinic doctor?

NOPE

5) Chunyi Lin runs the Mayo Clinic and in fact OWNS the Mayo Clinic?

NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF -- it's possible as some deep secret I suppose.....

but NOPE not for now.

6) The Mayo Clinic doctors did a double-blind science study verifying that Chunyi Lin's qigong alleviates severe pain?

YES.

7) Chunyi Lin healed Mayo Clinic patients who had severe diseases which would have required severe surgery (like a lung transplant or breast cancer)?

YES.

8) Chunyi Lin is recommended by Mayo Clinic doctors?

YES.

So does Chunyi Lin "work" with the Mayo Clinic?

Well he's not directly on their payroll -- so he works "with" but he does not work FOR the Mayo Clinic.

reply to post by drew hempel


Drew, I dont think you get the point. 15 days is impressive, I did not see how she was supervised. And I am looking to find your 30 day study, you have posted a lot of links, and I may have missed that one.

30 days with no food and water would be pretty amazing too.

But neither 15 nor 30 days exceeds the time frame that we know humans can live without food.

en.wikipedia.org...

In October 1920, the Lord Mayor of Cork, Terence MacSwiney, died on hunger strike in Brixton prison. Two other Cork IRA men, Joe Murphy and Michael Fitzgerald, also died on hunger strike in this protest along with Monaghan native, Conor McElvaney who lasted 79 days before death. The Guinness Book of Records lists the world record in hunger strike (without forced feeding) as 94 days, which was set from August 11 to November 12, 1920 by John and Peter Crowley,

We know, from people who have conveniently starved themselves to death for us in prisons where we can be reasonably sure who had access to them, an approximately maximum limit the human body can go without food. And these are untrained bodies, so for someone who has been training in meditation etc., we can maybe add a little to that. Regardless, it would not take 70 years to starve our claimant to inedia to death.

If he would but give us 6 months in a sealed room with no access to other humans or food or water, we could watch him starve to death and end the whole argument.

reply to post by drew hempel


I have reviewed the sequence in detail in the following post
Citation conversation
So far you have responded by spamming this thread with irrelevant material.

In all you have misrepresented papers in a failed attempt to support a failed notion of the magnetic properties of the pineal gland, the existence of an EMF in a person, and the synthesis of water in a person.

You have earned a grade of F so far.

reply to post by Myrddin Wyllt


Congratulations!! You've DISCOVERED CHEMISTRY PROFESSOR EMERITUS RUSTOM ROY!!!

Now then -- "what a strange statement to make" you state about Rustom Roy....

Is it? He's the founder of the peer-reviewed science journal so he doesn't author the articles of the journal but provides the framework for analysis. He states he has a good eye for finding new science.... strange? Maybe or maybe not.

Let's review Rustom Roy's publications on the subject matter!

www.rustumroy.com...

Damn one of those international doo-hickeys -- and interdisciplinary to boot! Let's just pretend we haven't read this:

2005—Second Interdisciplinary International Conference

Rustum Roy, W. A. Tiller, Iris Bell, and Richard Hoover, Water: Universal Agent of Healing; It’s Structure as the Key …………………………………………………… 7

books.google.com... ei=kqzbS-yXDYz-9AT6vIXLBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another new age malarky conference on "whole person healing" --

IGNORE

SELF-CENSOR!!

Moving on:

Here we go a hard science NON-PEER REVIEWED dismissal of Rustom Roy doing qigong experiments: Fair enough.

hawk-handsaw.blogspot.com...

Here we have a sympathetic review of one of Rustom Roy's Whole Person Healing conferences (2005) by a presenter:

He doesn't seem too WOO WOO:

bmhegde.com...

The highlight of the talk was the documentation of "mode locking" between breathing and heart's function viewed through heart rate variability. With continuous wavelet transform (CWT) pattern of colored computer display through wavelet coefficient analysis of ECG strips, we have been able to make better diagnosis and accurate prognostication possible in cardiac ailments.(2) The talk also showed the way to future research in holism in human wellness and illnesses.

Oh oh!

Deepak Chopra chimes in on Rustom Roy -- Chopra promotes Roy's letter published in the NY TIMES

WOO WOO ALERT

Real scientists -- please self-censor yourself for the following information lest your blindfolds be temporarily removed causing permanent retina damage to your pineal gland:

www.intentblog.com...

O.K. finally we get to the relevant information at hand as per Rustom Roy:

The Bigu (or going without food and water) issue of his journal:

Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society Receive this page by email each issue: [Sign up for eTOCs] Contents: October 2002, Volume 22, No. 5

bst.sagepub.com...

Rustum Roy Science and Whole Person Medicine: Enormous Potential in a New Relationship Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society 2002 22: 374-390. [Abstract] [PDF] [References] [Request Permission] Rustum Roy The Bigu Phenomenon: An Introduction Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society 2002 22: 391. [PDF] [Request Permission] Xin Yan, Alexis Traynor-Kaplan, Hongmei Li, Jun Wang, Hua Shen, and Zhen-Qin Xia Studies on the Fundamental Theory of Bigu (Food Abstinence)—Preliminary Experimental Observations of Cellular Bigu Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society 2002 22: 392-396. [Abstract] [PDF] [References] [Request Permission] Xin Yan, Canhui Li, Chao Lu, Wei Chin, Hua Shen, and Jun Wang Homeostasis Is Maintained in Yan Xin Life Science Technology-Optimized Caloric Restriction: Physiological and Biochemical Studies Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society 2002 22: 397-402. [Abstract] [PDF] [References] [Request Permission] Xin Yan, Zhen-Qin Xia, Hua Shen, and Alexis Traynor-Kaplan External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of Phosphatidylinositol 3-Kinase Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society 2002 22: 403-406. [Abstract] [PDF] [References] [Request Permission] Namir Khan

reply to post by stereologist


Considering I attended Hampshire college which has no grades your lofty denouncement is not relevant to this thread.