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My Thoughts on the Immigration Debate..

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posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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First off, a little background and information about myself, so to be clear and give insight as to where I am coming from:

I am married to a legal immigrant from Mexico. We met while studying in University. She was here on a student visa at the time. When we met, she had no intention of staying in the United States after she finished school. After meeting, she changed her mind, only because of me. After getting married, we realized that we didn't have the money to start her legal process of being able to stay here, and eventually become naturalized, and have only recently been able to start her processing.

This is where I will add that my wife despises what illegal immigration from her country has done to the United States, as do I. Her most valid points she always makes on the issues:

1) Look at Mexico's immigration laws. The Mexican government is hypocritical at every turn of this debate. What do they say when the US tries to involve themselves in internal matters? They have no right to complain about our laws, and look stupid when they try to talk about our immigration laws, when they have some of the toughest.

2) The Mexican people are quick to come here and protest our laws and our government, when they are generally complacent with doing anything to change their own government. Corruption in Mexico is rampant.

She always turns to this when discussing immigration, and she is always accurate and factual.. and most of the time, calm and collected.

As for myself, personally.. I am a strict paleo-libertarian. I believe in the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. My wife and I spent two years after getting married living in Sonora, MX, a state on the southern border of Arizona. Sonora is a lot like Texas, very independent from the rest of Mexico. They take no BS and take care of each other. A lot of ranchers.. all in all, a beautiful state with wonderful people. We then lived in Tucson, until a few months ago when we moved back to where I am originally from due to the down economy in Arizona and the fact that I have always favored a smaller town.. more laid back.

-----------

Now, with all of that stated, I would like to present a few issues I have. They are my opinions, as everyone else here has their own. I do not claim to be right, and I will not bother responding to anyone that comes here just to sling more mud. If I wanted that, I would go to one of the other hundred threads already posted here and jump right in the middle and start slinging back.

Ok, first, Arizona's bill:

I personally hate our Federal Government, and I blame them for Arizona passing this bill due to their inaction. I have to say that I am afraid that this bill will lead to harassment of legal citizens that may not be carrying any ID. You shouldn't have to carry the kinds of paperwork that they will be looking for if you are a legal citizen.. for those of you that think that it's fine that they want you to carry these papers.. I respect your right to believe as you want to, but please respect my right to disagree. Freedom is a choice that we must all make at some point, and it must always be a choice that we make alone. There is no freedom but individual freedom.

I don't believe that the State has the ability to handle immigration (Other than protecting their border to keep people from coming in in the first place) . I will give you an example to clarify why:

Lets say States could oversee immigration, what would keep California (for example), from legalizing any illegal immigrant that came into their country. If they are legalized, then they are afforded the same ability as you and I to move freely inside the other 49 states of the Union. Does that mean that they could not travel into other states? We have free passage as citizens.. if they are legalized by a state, they would too. You may think that is an outrageous stretch, but under State controlled immigration, it could very well be.

I will take the time to mention here the anchor baby issue:

I have seen many advocate deporting children born in the United States to illegal immigrants. I ask you simply, to where? They were born here. What country are they a citizen of? Mexico? Why? If I were born in France, I would be French. If I were born in Russia, I would be Russian. I was born in the United States.. I am American. It is clearly written that if you are born here, you are a citizen. If you don't like it change it. Amend the Constitution, but don't pretend to support it, when you are no better than those politicians that you sling vitriol at for pissing on the Constitution.

Too many claim the Constitution only when it benefits their agenda. Our Constitution is a wonderful document because it can be amended. It can't be overlooked unless we allow it to be.


----

Ok, in closing:

I love my country. I have lived in Mexico.. I have seen what people run from there, and I am blessed daily with the dream that they run toward. We cannot have this debate until we realize this one simple thing:

It is us against them. Not Mexican vs America. It is us on the bottom, against those on top. If you want to change our country.. change our Government. It's the haves against the have nots.. We are feeding right into what they want. God forbid people ever stop for a second, fighting over these issues that they have created, and realize that our energy is moving in the wrong direction.. and making everything for those on top a little easier.

Divided, we indeed will fall. It's happening.

What can we agree on? There has to be something, or we have already lost.

We are all quick to take sides, blue or red. Vicious in our attacks, we forget that blood dries purple.


Resist for Peace.




posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:04 AM
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I respect your opinion, but I just disagree.

Second line was blank, so here..



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by broahes


I personally hate our Federal Government, and I blame them for Arizona passing this bill due to their inaction. I have to say that I am afraid that this bill will lead to harassment of legal citizens that may not be carrying any ID. You shouldn't have to carry the kinds of paperwork that they will be looking for if you are a legal citizen.. for those of you that think that it's fine that they want you to carry these papers.. I respect your right to believe as you want to, but please respect my right to disagree. Freedom is a choice that we must all make at some point, and it must always be a choice that we make alone. There is no freedom but individual freedom.



Enlighten some of us here but wouldnt a drivers licence and or another form of picture ID take care of this? For legals I mean. Whats all the complaining about?

I know every time I have ever been pulled over the cops needed to see it. Is that being messed with? When I didnt have it they still needed the SSN.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:11 AM
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reply to post by Thoreau1
 


Wow..


So much there to respond to. It was to be expected though..

What exactly do we disagree on? Are you in support of illegal immigration? It's hard to tell, you didn't give me much to go on.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:15 AM
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reply to post by Logarock
 



Do you realize how easy it is for illegals (all of them, not just mexican) to get a drivers license and a ssn?

Go to any construction job site where the majority is mexican and ask for a drivers license and a ssn card.

I promise all of them will have one and from personal expieriance 90 percent of them are fake. I know of a construction company who hires illegals and then charges a small fee to get them both forms of ID.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by Logarock
 


Well for one, who's to say that they will only be asked for ID when being stopped for traffic violations?

No one should have to carry ID on them if they don't choose.

You can have a driver's license and still be illegal. That is one of the things that I could never understand. You shouldn't be able to get a driver's license without proof of citizenship, which in a lot of states you still can. All Arizona would have to do is make it mandatory to be a citizen in order to get a license.. and if it is mandatory there, then I don't see why they would need more than a license.. making the point of this bill moot.

Again, why should you have to carry ID on you in your own country?

Thank you for at least asking a good question. I welcome your opinion.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:22 AM
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A driver's license is not proof of citizenship by the way..



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by broahes
reply to post by Logarock
 


Well for one, who's to say that they will only be asked for ID when being stopped for traffic violations?

No one should have to carry ID on them if they don't choose.

You can have a driver's license and still be illegal. That is one of the things that I could never understand. You shouldn't be able to get a driver's license without proof of citizenship, which in a lot of states you still can. All Arizona would have to do is make it mandatory to be a citizen in order to get a license.. and if it is mandatory there, then I don't see why they would need more than a license.. making the point of this bill moot.

Again, why should you have to carry ID on you in your own country?

Thank you for at least asking a good question. I welcome your opinion.


I think we need microchips and tattoos

that would look cool too

anything to stop the mowing of lawns I say

Just being a Dic, sorry

I agree with you, this notion of having to carry proof of birth is not American.
The constitution applies to ALL people here, this sham is constitutionally repugnant.
All solutions are not good solutions



[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by Miracle Man
reply to post by Logarock
 



Do you realize how easy it is for illegals (all of them, not just mexican) to get a drivers license and a ssn?

Go to any construction job site where the majority is mexican and ask for a drivers license and a ssn card.

I promise all of them will have one and from personal expieriance 90 percent of them are fake. I know of a construction company who hires illegals and then charges a small fee to get them both forms of ID.


Yes in fact a relative was dating a Mexican guy here in Ohio. This guy lived in a house full of guys that were laborers.

They had everything right there in the home to make fake IDs including stolen SSN and the works. I looked into this and found that its part of Mexican organized crime. One of the Cartels down there is the largest sourse of fake IDs in the US. If you know these guys they can even make your white ass one for a free.

Also these workers had to pay a % of their wages to the "handler" that got them here to beginn with.

This whole thing is major corruption. With US officals in on it as well. I would think the Arizona Gov has added security this mounth.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:35 AM
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Here is my recent thread

you might like it, for it has produced some very good debate from the ultra liberal
to the quasi statist...

My constitutional concerns are in there and expanded upon by another member.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Miracle Man
reply to post by Logarock
 



Do you realize how easy it is for illegals (all of them, not just mexican) to get a drivers license and a ssn?

Go to any construction job site where the majority is mexican and ask for a drivers license and a ssn card.

I promise all of them will have one and from personal expieriance 90 percent of them are fake. I know of a construction company who hires illegals and then charges a small fee to get them both forms of ID.


Yes in fact a relative was dating a Mexican guy here in Ohio. This guy lived in a house full of guys that were laborers.

They had everything right there in the home to make fake IDs including stolen SSN and the works. I looked into this and found that its part of Mexican organized crime. One of the Cartels down there is the largest sourse of fake IDs in the US. If you know these guys they can even make your white ass one for a free.

Also these workers had to pay a % of their wages to the "handler" that got them here to beginn with.

This whole thing is major corruption. With US officals in on it as well. I would think the Arizona Gov has added security this mounth.


Just wait until this is challenged

if it is upheld

the practice can migrate to other things, that have nothing to do with illegals

Such a bad thing, I really wish you could see that

look what the terrorism fixes have unleashed upon the concept of privacy...



[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:40 AM
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reply to post by broahes
 


We all have opinions...and our goal shouldn't be to always try to agree...but to try to understand each other.

So to better understand you...I have a few questions.



This is where I will add that my wife despises what illegal immigration from her country has done to the United States, as do I.


What exactly has illegal immigration done that she despises?



1) Look at Mexico's immigration laws. The Mexican government is hypocritical at every turn of this debate. What do they say when the US tries to involve themselves in internal matters? They have no right to complain about our laws, and look stupid when they try to talk about our immigration laws, when they have some of the toughest.


Agreed...but what difference does it make? When people bring this up...I don't know what their angle is. People are always say "look at Mexico's immigration laws"...yes they are tough...to the point of almost being inhumane...why would we want to look to them as an example?

The other thing I don't understand is when people point out how corrupt and wrong the Mexican government is...I don't know how they don't see that it is a argument on WHY Mexicans would want to come to the United States...legal or not. It is SO bad in Mexico...they are willing to risk getting caught just to have the opportunity of a better life.

Isn't that what America is supposed to represent??? A chance for a better life? Isn't that why Eurpoeans risked the voyage across the ocean...for a chance of a better life? Mexican immigrants are no different. You said your wife came here on a visa...and I beleive I remember you saying in another thread that her family was wealthy and paid a lot of money to get that visa. Well these people that are crossing illegally don't have that luxury...by you telling them "do it legally"...you are basically telling them "rot and die in Mexico...because you will never have the money". Is a chance to a better life now being sold to the highest bidder?

That is not who we are...we are not, or should not be an elitist society.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

When did we fall from these high morals? When did it become "Give me your wealthy, screw the poor"?

Tell me in your honest opinion...do you think the majority of the illegal immigrants will EVER have the means to come here legally?



2) The Mexican people are quick to come here and protest our laws and our government, when they are generally complacent with doing anything to change their own government. Corruption in Mexico is rampant.


Risking their lives by crossing a desert doesn't seem very complacent to me. If you lived in Mexico and your wife is from Mexico...then you know the government. Hell...we have Americans on ATS every day crying that they can't change the government...in the LAND OF THE FREE...they say this. But you expect the poor to somehow challenge the corrupt government of Mexico??? You know who has a good chance of fixing the corruption in Mexico...wealthy families like your wifes...not the poor. The poor has one daily goal...how do I feed my family.

Also...I would disagree that it is the illegals protesting the laws. There is no way to prove my opinion of this or yours...but from what I know of the situation...illegals are not going to put themselves in that position to possibly get arrested. I would think more likely it is Hispanic American citizens that are sympathetic to the illegal immigrants plight that are out protesting.




I will end with this...because I think it is well worth repeating.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Tell me if you can read that without thinking of the average illegal immigrant just looking for a better life for them and their families.

Why do we no longer have a golden door? Why do we no longer want to be the shining city on the hill that people strive to get to?


I respect your opinion, friend...I just don't agree with it and currently do not completely understand it.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Miracle Man
reply to post by Logarock
 



Do you realize how easy it is for illegals (all of them, not just mexican) to get a drivers license and a ssn?

Go to any construction job site where the majority is mexican and ask for a drivers license and a ssn card.

I promise all of them will have one and from personal expieriance 90 percent of them are fake. I know of a construction company who hires illegals and then charges a small fee to get them both forms of ID.


Yes in fact a relative was dating a Mexican guy here in Ohio. This guy lived in a house full of guys that were laborers.

They had everything right there in the home to make fake IDs including stolen SSN and the works. I looked into this and found that its part of Mexican organized crime. One of the Cartels down there is the largest sourse of fake IDs in the US. If you know these guys they can even make your white ass one for a free.

Also these workers had to pay a % of their wages to the "handler" that got them here to beginn with.

This whole thing is major corruption. With US officals in on it as well. I would think the Arizona Gov has added security this mounth.


Just wait until this is challenged

if it is upheld

the practice can migrate to other things, that have nothing to do with illegals

Such a bad thing, I really wish you could see that

look what the terrorism fixes have unleashed upon the concept of privacy...

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]


I hear you and know what you are saying but it reamins to be seen. Not going to be afraid of that just yet.

As far as the terrorist fixes. What fixes do you mean? Speak plainly man.

The illegal problem in this country has to do with shadow operations and operators, organized crime and payoffs of many sorts. So some believe it is part of an large play. ok I can see that, they need a reason ect.

Only a bunch of dumbasses would let untold numbers of illegals move around unquestioned out of fear that a crack down will result in part of a plot comming to pass. We can do two things at once we can watch both.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


First, let me say thank you for your long and thoughtful reply.



What exactly has illegal immigration done that she despises?


What my wife hates, and what I hate are two separate things. She sees the costs, where I see the price of vegetables being much cheaper because of those people that are willing to work for a fraction of what I would expect for the same labor.

My concerns are the ones that are forced to use emergency rooms instead of a doctor. Do you know how much they charge for Tylenol in a hospital emergency room?


It is a huge strain on the overbearing tax system that we have.. paying for people that can only seek medical attention from Emergency rooms. This is part (not all) of our outrageous prices in healthcare.

Our country is deeply divided over this issue.. just another thing to keep us apart, and not bring us together.. it's not the immigrant's fault, but it is an effect.



Agreed...but what difference does it make? When people bring this up...I don't know what their angle is. People are always say "look at Mexico's immigration laws"...yes they are tough...to the point of almost being inhumane...why would we want to look to them as an example?


It's not about looking to them for an example. It's about our government and our media giving any kind of weight to a country that speaks from both sides of their mouth.. much like any government. Again, a point that I don't think I was clear enough on (because I ramble, and didn't have room).. I am not against the people. I am against both governments on both sides of the border that have created this problem to begin with.

I can't fault, and rest well at night with the same though, the people that are coming here for a better life.

I agree with all that you say as far as what America should be.. but I can't just advocate open borders either. You can't give safe haven for those looking for a better life in a country that will turn into exactly what they are running from if you don't have some kind of order and responsibility in immigration.



Risking their lives by crossing a desert doesn't seem very complacent to me. If you lived in Mexico and your wife is from Mexico...then you know the government. Hell...we have Americans on ATS every day crying that they can't change the government...in the LAND OF THE FREE...they say this. But you expect the poor to somehow challenge the corrupt government of Mexico??? You know who has a good chance of fixing the corruption in Mexico...wealthy families like your wifes...not the poor. The poor has one daily goal...how do I feed my family.


Mexico is a country of poor dominated by the rich. There is no reason that they couldn't change their country. They have done it before, and if life is ever to be good for them, they will have to do it again. Why would the rich want anything to change? I agree, they could do more than the poor ever could, but they wont. They have what they want. It's no different than our country. It's the same all over the world.

I don't think we disagree more than we agree. I am tired tonight, and I don't feel like I am giving adequate voice to my mind..

I have said many times that if Americans that are so opposed to illegal immigrants had to live in the conditions that many of them are coming here from.. they wouldn't give a damn about breaking any laws either if it meant giving their family the basic lives that we all deserve.

On a side note.. when the American Government deports people, they generally ask where the person is from.. they don't check. Where do you think they say they are from? That's right.. Mexico. They get dropped off there.. they are a burden to the Mexican people, and then they jump the border again. I've met a lot of people that have done that. Our system is a joke.. and it isn't the people's fault.. it's our governments on both sides of the border.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 02:24 AM
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reply to post by broahes
 



First, let me say thank you for your long and thoughtful reply.


Hey...I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this issue with someone who is being level headed about it. So thank you as well.


I don't think we disagree more than we agree.


Agreed


I am tired tonight


Agreed, me too
that is why I will respond to your post at greater length tomorrow after I get some sleep.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Miracle Man
reply to post by Logarock
 



Do you realize how easy it is for illegals (all of them, not just mexican) to get a drivers license and a ssn?

Go to any construction job site where the majority is mexican and ask for a drivers license and a ssn card.

I promise all of them will have one and from personal expieriance 90 percent of them are fake. I know of a construction company who hires illegals and then charges a small fee to get them both forms of ID.


Yes in fact a relative was dating a Mexican guy here in Ohio. This guy lived in a house full of guys that were laborers.

They had everything right there in the home to make fake IDs including stolen SSN and the works. I looked into this and found that its part of Mexican organized crime. One of the Cartels down there is the largest sourse of fake IDs in the US. If you know these guys they can even make your white ass one for a free.

Also these workers had to pay a % of their wages to the "handler" that got them here to beginn with.

This whole thing is major corruption. With US officals in on it as well. I would think the Arizona Gov has added security this mounth.


Just wait until this is challenged

if it is upheld

the practice can migrate to other things, that have nothing to do with illegals

Such a bad thing, I really wish you could see that

look what the terrorism fixes have unleashed upon the concept of privacy...

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]


I hear you and know what you are saying but it reamins to be seen. Not going to be afraid of that just yet.

As far as the terrorist fixes. What fixes do you mean? Speak plainly man.

The illegal problem in this country has to do with shadow operations and operators, organized crime and payoffs of many sorts. So some believe it is part of an large play. ok I can see that, they need a reason ect.

Only a bunch of dumbasses would let untold numbers of illegals move around unquestioned out of fear that a crack down will result in part of a plot comming to pass. We can do two things at once we can watch both.


I mean being able to monitor this conversation at their will and use it as evidence if it can be construed as a crime. You being detained forever, for what ever reason, if for some reason Barrack wants it that way. Legal black holes of the various fixes...
Things like that... all meant to suppress terrorism, all create a pathway for "legalized" governmental tyranny.

NOW

IF the Gov. can stop/arrest a person because of lack of government sanctioned papers, effects based upon a sense, look, "suspicion" (the precedence I was talking about)

, deny them rights to an attorney based upon "suspicion" of terror -(look up the federal definition of that)

and

the GOV does not have to confirm or deny they have you... we are screwed... not free in the way we know it now

My friend, what about if they pass a law stating you need a specific ID, based upon this
precedent,

FED SAYS,

"YOU HAVE TO CARRY ID TO CONFIRM YOUR CITIZENSHIP AT ALL TIMES",

BUT they decide this ID will be a micro chip ID to avoid fraud and card reprinting costs, waste...


My point is you have to BE insane to trust this government and its voting base that much... This method of detection opens a door we do not want to open.

We are going digital, there is no better issue to introduce this concept

If we see it, it will be happening

ITs one vote away after this step...

I am a chess player, if I were an evil President I could check mate liberty in one more move provided I could find enough idiots to support it....






[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]



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