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The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

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posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:11 AM
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Just to throw my 2 cents in here.

The immigration debate is a stupid thing to be having in the first place. Essentially what little enforcement that actually happens only gets the worst of the worst. Large employers like it because they get workers for all the scut work out there and can keep the cost of labor low. Would the average citizen do that kind of work? Stand on a line cutting or sorting meat? Gardening and Landscaping? Farm work? The hard physical labor stuff probably wouldn't get done unless the wages were much higher.

Politicians, especially Democratic politicians see future Democrats in the illegals and just hate the thought of deporting them.

Then there is the do-gooders. They think they are following some kind of higher calling helping the illegals. But on the flip side they don't see the damage they are causing to society in general. Unrestrained immigration brings in the scum of rest of the world. If the southern border was fenced and guarded properly the way most countries of the world guard theirs the current mess in Mexico simply wouldn't exist.

If the current immigration problems were to be solved by sober intelligent people without political considerations(fat chance) it would work like this.

Effective border security. An efficent Social Security verification program. Invalid SSN? No work. Also a sensible immigration policy that would allow people to immigrate legally. The current systems quotas are ridiculously small and charge excessively. No wonder it's being ignored. And a system or systems to allow foreign workers of various levels the ability to fill jobs in the US that employers cannot get domestic help to fill. After a reasonable effort was made to find a domestic worker of course.

The system is broken. However the States can fix this. Nothing in the Constitution states that the Federal govt is the only one that regulates immigration. State laws regulating illegal immigration would be constitutional. According to the 10th amendment it would appear it's their power actually. The only federal govt power here is to establish the rules of legal immigration according to Article 1 sec.8.

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization

That's all the Constitution says is the Federal power on immigration. The states should stop complaining and exercise their power like Arizona.



[edit on 29-4-2010 by ntech]




posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by g146541
My view is, we are in a time of war folks. they are non uniformed insurgents.
I think the Juneva Convention has a perfect solution.


#1. ROFL Insurgents.
#2. ROFL Juneva...

You're saying the incorrectly spelled convention which affords them the right to be here, is the solution to removing them?

P.S. Still waiting for *someone* to bring up their misunderstanding of constitutional probable cause again.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by PapaKrok
reply to post by Wildbob77
 


Jail? I work in the county jail here... why should the county, state, etc have to foot the bill for his incarceration at $30,000 a year? Why should we allow them to take up space, clog the legal system and continue to present a financial drain on the local economy???

DEPORT. Let Mexico deal with it.


Most are transported back to Mexico. Its only when there is criminal activity they are jailed here.

But Mexico isn't going to stop those sent back from returning - - because when they work in America - - they send American dollars back to their family.

If Mexico would cooperate with America - - - they should build jails and hospitals on the border to transport illegals to - - rather then drain the US system. What they are building along the Mexican border is warehouses. So countries can ship product to Mexico and store it until America (or others) need it - - then it will be trucked (or flown) to its destination.

But the Mexican government is corrupt. Any time a decent person tries to change things - - they or their families are kidnapped and/or killed.

Maybe we should have invaded Mexico instead of Iraq. OH - but wait - Mexico doesn't have anything we want.

There is a lot more going on - - - but most just want to point their fingers - - - rather then see a larger picture.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by grey580


1. Yes. I'm sure you would. There would have to be a mechanism in place for processing those illegals. You wouldn't just poof insta legalize them.

2. Those legalized would need to also have their immediate families rolled into the immigration process along with the illegal immigrant. We need to fix the issue of why people illegally come into this country. And that's to make money to send back and support their families. If we get the illegals and their families legalized. They now have to pay taxes. Paying into the system and supporting local busineses.

3. We currently have a system in place to handle illegal immigrants. It is glaringly obvious that the system in place does not work. Punishing illegals by deportation doesn't work. They really don't have anything to lose. It's time for a different approach to immigration.

And lastly You are dead wrong. I don't own my own business. I'm not in politics. I'm not rich. While white I'm also hispanic. Both sides of my family came legally to this country back in the 60's. Columbia from my moms side. And Costa Rica from my fathers. Both sides of the family trace back to Spain.

You on the other hand aren't really looking to fix the problem. And the Closing the borders and deporting illegals approach does not work. And it will never work as long as the rewards outweigh the punishment.

Now if you still do not like my approach to solving the issue. Maybe I can offer an alternative.

The reason why most illegals come to this country is to work and send money back to their home country.
How bout we pass legislation that prohibits anyone not a citizen from sending money out of the country.
Make it a 10,000 dollar fine to send money on behalf of an illegal.
Make exceptions for people with travel or student visas or other legal immigrants.

Do this and you can manage some of the influx of illegal immigrants. It's not a perfect solution but it might help a bit.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by grey580]


Ok so if we made lets say 20 million illegals legal right, and then we brought all there family over, um we would then be adding around 100 million or more??????? I don't agree with that.

The sending money thing sounds good but there are to many ways around that. For one the post office can't open peoples mail being sent out of the United States. They could also get money to Mexico without it being sent in the mail. It might work if they wire money but not if they get a money order and send it in a letter or are able to cross back into Mexico or have a legal family member bring it back to Mexico.

Third, I do want to fix the problem and the only way I see to fix it is to stop illegals from comming into the United States. Making 20 million illegals legal in my opinion is a very very bad idea.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:22 AM
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Since most everyone is ignoring reality in this duscisson.

Ignorant to the constitution.
Ignorant to the laws of the land.
Ignorant to basic human rights.
Ignorant to their own racism.
Ignorant to definitions of words.

Got three words for you.

North American Union...

That's ALL this is about.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by rcwj1975
 


A trial is for citizens and cost money, this guy has already cost too much. Send him home, sell/auction all of his belongings with the money going to the victim. If there is no personal victim, the money should be split between the state and county where the illegal was living.

Another issue that needs to be addressed in this case is Tyson Chicken. They should be given a heavy fine for allowing him to work for them. They should also be audited for more illegal activities and fined accordingly.

Businesses MUST be held responsible for their actions. All fines should be used to help repay the victims and the state and for the expenses of keeping the border closed.

The auditing would be a good job for the otherwise useless ICE. If an illegal is caught and found to have a job, both the company and their auditing agent should be held responsible.

No federal office gets anything from the fines. Too bad fines can't be levied against them for dereliction of duty, as it is absolutely their fault this situation has escalated to this point.

As an after thought, some of the fine could be used as an incentive to anyone successfully turning in an illegal alien. By successful, I mean it ends in deportation of the illegal. Since this could lead to false accusations, anyone turning in false reports should be warned the first time and fined if they do it again.

Edited to add...
Man after all of that and I forgot the most important part...Thank you rcwj1975 for your service and a job well done


[edit on 29-4-2010 by SheaWolf]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:37 AM
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I don't think anyone for or against this bill is opposed to deporting illegal immigrants.

The main concern is how LEOs are going to put this law into fair practice, etc...



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by mryanbrown
 


for the last couple of pages all you've done is ramble on about how the op doesn't know what the constitution is and not about the subject at hand.... that seems pretty ignorant



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by mryanbrown
 


For you in particular, but anyone else who is not sure what the Fourth Amendment means, here it is explained:

FOURTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution]
'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

To pass muster under the Fourth Amendment, detention must be 'reasonable. ' See U.S. v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 542-44 ('85) (analyzing constitutionality of length of traveler's border detention under Fourth Amendment reasonableness standard); Caban, 728 F.2d at 75 (considering whether duration of border detention without a hearing was reasonable).

In the context of a criminal arrest, a detention of longer than 48 hours without a probable cause determination violates the Fourth Amendment as a matter of law in the absence of a demonstrated emergency or other extraordinary circumstance. See County of Riverside v. McLaughlin, 111 S.Ct. 1661, 670 ('91). However, the Supreme Court arrived at this rule by considering the time it takes to complete administrative steps typically incident to arrest.....

Fourth Amendment

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Seitler]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by mryanbrown
 


Oops geneva sorry my spelling may be off abit but i do remember the grave breaches section these are war crimes.

(edit) The North American Union is the next stepping stone to the NWO.


[edit on 29-4-2010 by g146541]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 11:53 AM
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Good gracious If I could I would give you a million flags...

Seriously, THANK YOU SO MUCH for that perspective. No one seems to understand what the actual law is all about and how much RED TAPE is keeping the hands tied of YOU and other law enforcement. Thank you officer for not only being a cool cop, but understanding this situation FAR BETTER than most of us EVER will.

THANK YOU!!



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by TrudgeOk so if we made lets say 20 million illegals legal right, and then we brought all there family over, um we would then be adding around 100 million or more??????? I don't agree with that.

The sending money thing sounds good but there are to many ways around that. For one the post office can't open peoples mail being sent out of the United States. They could also get money to Mexico without it being sent in the mail. It might work if they wire money but not if they get a money order and send it in a letter or are able to cross back into Mexico or have a legal family member bring it back to Mexico.

Third, I do want to fix the problem and the only way I see to fix it is to stop illegals from comming into the United States. Making 20 million illegals legal in my opinion is a very very bad idea.



1. Oh I don't know. 100 million new americans. let's look at the pluses.
They will need housing. so that means more jobs in the housing market.
More housing means that the government gets more in property taxes.

The immigrants will need to buy things. that means local busineses will make more money. they will need more employess. more stores will need to be built to handle the load. more jobs and more jobs. more opportunities more innovation. I don't see it as a bad thing.

Sure there will be growing pains. But we are no strangers to growth and expansion.

2. no one sends cash in the mail especially to another country. It would get lost so fast your head would spin. And btw. Not all illegal immigrants are from mexico. You have some 20 other countries south of mexico and we aren't even counting the chinese that come in illegally into this country or other nations from the east and west.

Sure there are ways around sending money back to your home country. My solution isn't going to stop it. but it will put a dent in how much goes back home. And it will also make people think twice about comming here if they can't get money back home.

3. Let me be very clear about this. You cannot stop illegals from entering this country. It is 100% impossible to do this. The countries borders are too big. We don't have the man power to do this. You need to wake up to that fact. You cannot stop illegals from entering.

So guess what. You know have to find a different solution to the problem.
We can't shoot illegals on site. That would be immoral.
Deportation doesn't work. They just come back.
Detention doesn't work. Locking them up costs us money.

You need a different solution. Legalization is the way to go man. Just like we did in the late 1800's and early 1900's with the european immigrants comming into this country.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Flatfish
Sounds to me like we should also eliminate ICE. From what I've read in this thread, it sounds like we are paying for immigration enforcement and they "are not interested." Does anyone see a problem with this attitude.

For years, as a union rep., I too made numerous request to immigration enforcement officials to show up and check the legal status of employees that were being utilized by our competition. I even offered to meet them at the site and I agreed to provide coffee and donuts for the LEOs. Never once did they show up, even after telling me that they would be there.

After five years of lobbying the Washington offices of Immigration Naturalization Services to at least do a check for compliance regarding I-9 employment forms on both, our union and our competition, They did. The union had the highest compliance rate of any U.S. employer at the time. Our non-union competition was found to be 75% non compliant. No arrest were made and no deportations followed. All the while, the union continued to lose jobs to these illegal employees and their illegal employers.

If we are serious about wanting to solve this problem of illegal immigration, then we must demand Mandatory Jail Time For Employers, found to be guilty of employing illegal immigrants. Never once have I seen an employer go to jail for violating this law. At best they are fined and the fines are cheaper than hiring Americans. Put these unscrupulous employers in jail and you will solve this problem. So long as we continue to only focus on the illegal immigrant and ignore the employer we are fundamentally pissing into the wind, if you know what I mean.


Do you know why ICE doesn't come arrest any one you have a problem with? Man power, they don't have enough. Even with local law enforcement helping there are not enough people. Another reason is EOIR they let people get away with a lot of crimes. Third? Because they are focusing on bigger fish than people who are just here illegally. You know the murderes, rapists, terrorists. Trust me there are more than you think.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by desireforyou
reply to post by mryanbrown
 


Actually no, that's where you're wrong.

Anyone that is here that had to apply for citizenship has to carry around something that shows that they are a legal citizen, proof to show anyone like a police officer in case they are pulled over. Don't you carry around a drivers license? These people would too if they where legal, what says that they shouldn't? Do they not get to abide by ANY law of ANY land? Do they get to be the people on this planet that have no law affect them at all?



WHOOPEE LETS LET THEM BE FREE. FREE TO DO ANYTHING.


Actually you are wrong once a person has naturalized they do not have to carry anything. Read the laws before you go and call people wrong. Legal permanent residents and refugee's and people on detainers have to carry around evidence...even asylum people do. Once you become a citizen you have all of our rights. Please read up on immigration law.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by grey580

1. Oh I don't know. 100 million new americans. let's look at the pluses.
They will need housing. so that means more jobs in the housing market.
More housing means that the government gets more in property taxes.

The immigrants will need to buy things. that means local busineses will make more money. they will need more employess. more stores will need to be built to handle the load. more jobs and more jobs. more opportunities more innovation. I don't see it as a bad thing.

Sure there will be growing pains. But we are no strangers to growth and expansion.

2. no one sends cash in the mail especially to another country. It would get lost so fast your head would spin. And btw. Not all illegal immigrants are from mexico. You have some 20 other countries south of mexico and we aren't even counting the chinese that come in illegally into this country or other nations from the east and west.

Sure there are ways around sending money back to your home country. My solution isn't going to stop it. but it will put a dent in how much goes back home. And it will also make people think twice about comming here if they can't get money back home.

3. Let me be very clear about this. You cannot stop illegals from entering this country. It is 100% impossible to do this. The countries borders are too big. We don't have the man power to do this. You need to wake up to that fact. You cannot stop illegals from entering.

So guess what. You know have to find a different solution to the problem.
We can't shoot illegals on site. That would be immoral.
Deportation doesn't work. They just come back.
Detention doesn't work. Locking them up costs us money.

You need a different solution. Legalization is the way to go man. Just like we did in the late 1800's and early 1900's with the european immigrants comming into this country.


We are already at 15 to 20 percent unemployment so what do you think another 100 million would do to that number? Also they would now get all of the benifits of being a citizen and would take even more money from the government while trying to find a job (of course there wouldn't be any).

So if we did like you say and make 20 million illegals now legal if they don't have a job they can now get unemployment, food stamps, free housing, etc, and now the 100 million family members will also get the same thing. Ok so if you think our taxes are high now see what would happen to your taxes if that happened. Oh and don't forget there will now be 20 million new illegals to deal with to replace the 20 million we just made legal and I guess if we have it your way we should make them legal as well and wait for the next 20 million to come to make them legal also.

So if we follow what you want then I should be able to break laws and get rewarded also. I should be able to use someones SSN and buy a bunch of stuff and get to keep it because I broke the law and, also break into there house and demand they give me a room to live.......



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:58 PM
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My god there is so much ignorance in this thread that I can't deny it all...

All people see is mexicans...wtf is wrong with everyone. There are more than just illegal mexican in this country. It won't just stop with anyone who looks mexican, under the law you can profile anyone of any race. What is to stop them from saying you are from canada if you are white? Or the Uk? Man people need to get their heads out of their butts.

If you want to know about immigration law read the immigration law hand book. The two major pieces of info I linked earlier that EVERYONE ignored are the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8C.F.R. Don't talk out of your asses about something read, educate yourself.

This website is supposed to deny ignorance and all I see from some people in this thread is promotion of it.

You have a few simple facts.

Immigration enforcement/power - federally mandated and supreme court enforced get over it. This includes deportation

You can't just ask people for their papers this isn't nazi germany. Yes they have to carry documents if they are not a citizen. But you can't just stop people and ask them for proof without them doing anything and that's what this law does.

You can't just select a race to profile I don't care it's wrong. If this law targeted white people all you would hear is bitching. Instead you have people supporting something can be turned against them at anytime. Great job way to read between the lines...

You can't enforce the borders they always find a way around, you can deport them/ban them/send them to whatever place you can find they will come back and deported again waisting money.

There isn't enough man power/money to enforce borders, you can't solve immigration problems until you can enforce borders.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by rcwj1975
 



This law doesn't address the state being able to deport anyone. It only allows the state to ask for immigration verification.

Now the problem here is that the USCIS (immigration control) has no authority over US Citizens. None whatsoever! And under federal law only immigration judges and border patrol officers can ask for verification.

Also it is completely legal for me as a US Citizen to walk around without any ID on me. It is also legal for me to leave my state in a vehicle or to travel in a vehicle as a passenger without any form of ID.

So I ask you how exactly is it that any officer whether they have probable cause or not should be allow to ask anyone whether they are legally in this country and then to have that officer require proof?

Even the federal government admits via USCIS documents that they can't even legitimately and constitutionally enforce that all immigrants carry their visa or greencard with them at all times. Even tho as an immigrant you are told you must carry proof at all times. This is because of a little thing called the 4th amendment. Just looking at someone you can not tell if they are legally here a naturalized citizen or a natural born citizen.

Now I am all for STATES being able to deport someone once it is proven in a court with a immigration judge that this person is illegally in the US. How you get to that step is when they are arrested on another charge and placed in front of a judge who can then ask them for proof of citizenship.

I however, will never submit willingly to any state law officer asking me for proof of my citizenship simply because this smacks of fascism and goes against my civil rights.

And just so everyone knows I am totally against amnesty, I think we need to tighten our borders and actually deport people who are found to be here illegally.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by rcwj1975
 



My agency owns three 50 person buses and it has already been calculated that laoding them up with 150 ILLEGALS, driving them to south texas and unloading would Cost $3200. Housing the same 150 ILLEGALS will cost us $11 a day EACH....thats $1650 a day for them, or $49,500 a month to house 150 ILLEGALS. Or again $3200 for a round trip to TX....so our plan was simple...ROAD TRIP


Your agency does not have the authority to deport anyone...and it shouldn't. If you are local or state...you have no authority to deport someone out of the country.

No matter how much you think you should have this authority...you should not. You should enforce the laws you have the authority to enforce...and that is all.

I didn't get a response to my earlier post...but do you admit that the only thing this Arizona law will do is that instead of calling ICE, now the Arizona police can bring someone to ICE...and ICE will probably still do the same thing and ignore them. And not because they don't care...but because they are already overwhelmed with work.

I looked up to see how many offices ICE has in Arizona...I can only find one field office for Detention and Removal and that is in Phoenix. Only ONE...do you think they are going to be able to handle that load???



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


First states have no authority over immigration matters that power was given by the founders of this country to our legislative branch. You know the same constitution you choose to uphold when you enforce the law?

While it is true that it is the duty of the federal government to handle this matter, they have been most heinously derelict of their duties. In such cases the states DO have the authority and the duty to do the job themselves.


NOT TO MENTION IT'S NOT A CRIME TO BE HERE ILLEGALLY

It's not???

Yes you found someone who was illegal, guess what they are everywhere. Not all of them are criminals.

I am curious...exactly what do you think ILLEGAL means???




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