The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

Regardless of how good or how bad a rule/law/policy/etc. may be, it will eventually boil down to the matter of who gets to make the decision and on the basis of 'what'. As far as local arrest and enforcement go, moral people will make moral decisions. That qualifier rules out federal help to do for the states what they must do for themselves. Perhaps a return to constitutional rule will help. Under the circumstances, couldn't hurt much since we don't have anywhere left to go but up IMO.

Just for information on immigration matters. (Won't let me link seperate sections of law, just click on the section referenced)

INA 287 For powers of immigration officals.

INA 212 For General classes of aliens ineligible to receive visas and for admission to the US.

INA 237 For aliens who are deportable. Note there is a difference between inadmissible and deportable.

The thing about immigration law is that it's really complex and there are exceptions for everything. You see someone illegal and think deport, but what about their family they have here are you going to hunt them down too? Are you going to take their children and ship them off without measures to ensure they don't die? I believe that would amount to a human rights violation...




[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]

Well in light of two more Americans being murdered on this side of the border in New Mexico ...I wounder if anyone will change their minds?

The State department is keeping very quite about the new deaths in Columbus New Mexico 20 miles north of the Mexican border...

Lately there have be a number of "Unsolved" murders... you could say a sudden spike in them... why??? Officials are keeping details close to the vest.... maybe they just don't want to start a panic???

IF any of you still believe we border states are wrong in our actions I invite you to come down and hang out with me to see how bad,bad is!
Better hurry, we're getting out of dodge in just another week and half...

I couldn't agree more with the OP and that such individuals need to be removed from our country immediately. However...I have a few issues.

First...our country allows and very nearly invites illegal aliens to invade our nation. We have "water stations" along the way to invading the USA, invaders can actually buy/register/license/drive cars, hold jobs, etc. while they are here. And the punishment for being caught..."Proceed to GO...Do no collect $200". THAT is a huge part of the problem. Want to resolve this on-going invasion once and for all? Simple...if you are here illegally, you have no rights in this country. If someone beats the crap out of you...too bad...you have no rights. If you want to get a job or buy something...too bad...you have no rights. You get sick or injured...too bad...no hospital...no rights. Its quite simple. Being a legal citizen of this country should get you something in return...rights, access to services, etc. If you aren't here legally...no rights, no access to services, etc. Then, "if" our legal citizens decide to kick the crap out of some invader, they can limp home, tell their friends about the beating they got, about how there is nothing to gain by invading the USA...and...wait for it...END OF PROBLEM!

The second problem (I probably have more, but am running out of time). The argument that deportation is "breaking up a family", or that being born here of illegal parents makes you a legal citizen, or that a person can receive ANY benefit for their crime...IS STUPID! While I can personally feel bad for a family being broken up...it isn't my problem or concern. If I rob, cheat, steal, con, etc. to get a house...use someone else's ID to buy a car on their credit, without their knowledge...feed my family by selling drugs, etc...and I'm caught. Where will all those bleeding heart liberals be that are soooo willing to accept the crimes of illegal aliens? Not supporting me or my family...that is for sure. When the police come to take my house and car and stick me in jail for 10 years...will they be crying..."but you're breaking up his family"? NO FRICKIN' WAY! So...obviously...a citizen that breaks the law has less rights than an illegal alien who has broken the law. Can you explain THAT to me? NO? Then fix it!

Why...well that is another topic all together, but it has to do with their racism (supporting their own above all others and above the law), votes (illegals and their supporters keeping a politician elected/employed because they let them in) and money. HOWEVER...and this is a big one...if there are NO RIGHTS for illegals, no protection, no services, no jobs, no water stations...THEY WON'T COME HERE. No one purposely robs an empty house, and THAT is what American has to be to illegals. And all the other problems will simply go away...along with the businesses hiring them, the politicians who support them and the bleeding hearts that are simply two faced liars. This one little idea solves so many problems and can be easily applied to other problems our country faces.

Most problems can be solved fairly easily...as long as you do what is right for the country and it's citizens, and stop worrying about making people that are part of the problem...happy. Oh yeah...and grow some balls!

reply to post by rcwj1975


Hello Rcwj1975,

As you have said you have read the threads about the Arizona law I'm am confident you have come across a few of my posts.

I have a question for you being in Law enforcement I am sure you are very aware of the fact that no matter how many criminals you hog tie and toss back into Mexico it never seams to end.

Why do you think that is?

How much more power do you want to apprehend and deport criminals and what difference is it going to make?

One of the costs Americans never talk about is the cost of 1.) paying you 2.) the cost of running the same illegal criminals through the same old useless legal system over and over again 3.) the cost and fees these privatise prisons amount by contracting with corporations for everything the criminal illegal needs.

An American hates the thought of an illegal immigrant getting his dieing child's appendix taken out by a doctor with out paying but he loves to see the criminal illegals get room service in prison on the Tax payers dime.

Would you rather not like to see illegals not come to your country Any more?

Because if you would like to stop illegals coming to the USA why not enforce employment laws, those are your real criminals.

Small businesses desperately trying to stay out of bankruptcy buy paying lower wages are the ones making it appealing to illegals to enter your country. These are the root of the problem.

Every other country in the world no matter how poor they are find easy solutions to stopping immigration except the USA. Why do you think that is?

My biggest issue/concern/question is that even though more people will probably be deported with Arizona's new law(and more states following soon), it does not stop them from just coming back in again. What steps are being taken to ensure that once an illegal is deported they won't just go find another coyote the next day?

When there are no proper consequences for breaking laws, criminals who break them do so easily and without fear because they don't FEAR the consequence. What good are laws that nobody fears? Nothing will change unless there is some sort of actual consequence put in place other then just being deported.


Funny part is going to be who will deliver the consequences? The Mexican government? (HA!) Other South American governments? (HA!) The U.S. Government? Probably not because the same people that want to give these illegals trials will now shout that we can't punish them because they are not citizens. (Hypocrites that run this nation). So where do we go from here?

Originally posted by UfoSpecial

Originally posted by Wildbob77
Personally, I think that he should be given a trial.

If found guilty, he should have to pay his fine, do his time and then immediately be deported.

I think that he should have to wait a minimum of 5 years before he would be eligible to get a visa to come to this country legally.

Anyone not a citizen can't ever immigrate here if they have a felony conviction here or even in their own country. At least that is what I have been told by immigration officers. They would never be given a visa either for being a past criminal.

I agree he should be prosecuted just like anyone and then deported.

There are waiting times for visas but we have certain visa waiver countries like the UK that we don't make get visas to come here. The immigration officer who told you that was wrong. It depends on what the crime. Here it's if it's a Felony conviction based upon the definition in INA 101(a)(43). And even those have waivers that can allow the person to adjust status or become citizens.

As far as overseas it just depends on the crime honestly.


[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]

I just really don't understand America.

I have a house here in Mexico, I have my dogs tied up at my fence to keep people I do not want entering my house from entering my house. It works while everyone around me is getting robbed, thieves know that if they enter my fence their ass is going to get bitten by an angry dog.

This is a metaphor for what roughly every country does in the world.

But the USA is a house with no fence, no dog and a big billboard sign out side saying !56" PLASMA TV INSIDE, NO LOCKS ON DOOR" and all you guys do is pay money to feed, clothes and shelter criminals in your prisons over and over and over again.

Every law you make does nothing to stop illegals from coming in to America all they do is makes it easier to toss them into a temporary playpen that you have to pay for.

It's ridiculous, you all love it!

I fully agree with Arizona's new Anti Illegal bill, the Illegals have been raping our Economic ,social and medical systems for decades this needs to be stopped and as to the so called constitutional rights no were is it stated in our constitution does it give invaders rights and the fact that they feel that Arizona ,California ,Texas ,Nevada ,and New Mexico belong to Mexico they have felt this for decades ,they feel we should speak Mexican and i am not Spanish as it is not true Spanish as they are not from Spain the Mexican spoken to day is a bastardization of Spanish.

I hope Other state take up bills to stop Illegals.

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE


Glad everything is so simple for you. Too bad for you though we have a Constitution, which you most likely claim to love, except when its words cause you problems. In the Constitution, rights are not conferred to citizens; rights are conferred to people unless otherwsie stated. if you want thing to be as simple as you think they are then you need to amend the Constitution. Until then, please don't waste our reading time by giving us you 'obvious' solutions that are anything but obvious to anyone with a baisc comprehension of the Constitution.

Originally posted by rcwj1975

Someone, PLEASE give me a legitimate answer as to why local police and other agencies should NOT be allowed to deal with these guys/gals directly and get them out of here. What reasoning could you possibly come up with when the stop was legit, the arrest was legit, the lack of citizenship CONFIRMED, and he/she IS caught doing criminal deeds? You don't need to be a "fed" to check the status of citizenship....that is called an excuse by the Government to make the rest of the populace actually believe locals can't enforce this BS!

The part of the Bill I don't like, is that we the tax payers have to foot the bill for him to stay in Jail. I say, if they are convicted of violent crime, or grand theft (of any kind, Identity included)...break their legs and toss over the border.

Originally posted by SauronLight
I fully agree with Arizona's new Anti Illegal bill, the Illegals have been raping our Economic ,social and medical systems for decades this needs to be stopped and as to the so called constitutional rights no were is it stated in our constitution does it give invaders rights and the fact that they feel that Arizona ,California ,Texas ,Nevada ,and New Mexico belong to Mexico they have felt this for decades ,they feel we should speak Mexican and i am not Spanish as it is not true Spanish as they are not from Spain the Mexican spoken to day is a bastardization of Spanish.

I hope Other state take up bills to stop Illegals.

Lol what about the millions of americans who are already doing that to our own system? Also by the way it's spanish...not mexican my god. God forbid they don't speak the queens spanish...



[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]

If a person is doing something that is illegal and gets pulled then they put themselves in that situation to be checked over. The problem I have is I am a black man and I have been pulled over just for anything like switching one lane without a signal or just any minor thing just so that the cop can ask are there drugs or guns in the car. These laws are not going to be a problem for white people because they will not be the target of being pulled over for any minor thing with the hope of finding drugs or being illegal. Blacks had to deal with the War on drugs as a reason to be pulled over and now AZ gave another reason for none white people to be pulled. What you will see are now more random check points go all over AZ. Yes something has to be done and I only hope that LEO's do things the right way instead of trying to force something to happen.

Okay... here's my take on this whole thing.

Not one illegal that's been interviewed has expressed concern about being illegal. Their only concern is working... I wouldn't care if they where here if they were worried about becoming a citizen. But that's complete BS when they only worry about sending money south of the border. If they want to become citizens I welcome all who want to make a better life here, but if you're only here for a paycheck to support your kids in Mexico... go back to where you came from.

Originally posted by VEGETA007
If a person is doing something that is illegal and gets pulled then they put themselves in that situation to be checked over. The problem I have is I am a black man and I have been pulled over just for anything like switching one lane without a signal or just any minor thing just so that the cop can ask are there drugs or guns in the car. These laws are not going to be a problem for white people because they will not be the target of being pulled over for any minor thing with the hope of finding drugs or being illegal. Blacks had to deal with the War on drugs as a reason to be pulled over and now AZ gave another reason for none white people to be pulled. What you will see are now more random check points go all over AZ. Yes something has to be done and I only hope that LEO's do things the right way instead of trying to force something to happen.

I also agree with your concerns. As a libertarian, I am completely against checkpoints, as well as racial profiling. I also believe there are two things that could help out. Stop the drug war, and stop (or greatly diminish) welfare. This way, those in possession of drugs, would not go to jail, and those on welfare, would either need to find a job (which would require moving to a better place to live, or in an illegals case, go back where they came from).

But then you do have the issue of Illegals finding decent jobs (like the OP posted, where he pulled one over driving a $30k car). A more thorough background check should be required for places that hire a certain number of employees (no need to make mom and pop shops suffer).

Another thing that would help would be to repeal affirmative action. Perhaps these Illegals aren't being checked too thoroughly because by law, companies need to hire a certain percentage of ethnicities.

first off i think the bill is simply a show of how people feel about illegal immigrants.

Now Mr Officer, since you pulled the guy over for doing something wrong in the 1st place well then it's his own fault for doing so and leading to his deportation if you have the right to do so.

Now the racial profiling is getting too much out of hand because the law states that they must pull you over for something else first then have cause to ask for you papers, same as the federal law is. Now yeah we've seen how some rogue cops have been acting lately. But if we think that the police is not going to de doing their job right bcs of racial profiling, then shouldn't they not be doing this job in the first place then? After all this indicates bad judgement, racism and bigotry something people don't want to see in an officer.

I personally believe that the very 1st target shouldn't be the people working, but the business owners. Get them first and make them pay hard for it, all the profits they made from hiring cheap labor and not paying health insurance should be taken away from them.

reply to post by rcwj1975


Umm the movie Judge Dredd comes to mind ..due process for illegals..not sure..what would of been your plan to get an illgeal Mexican back to Mexico from Atlanta Georgia?...Go Dogs!

reply to post by rcwj1975


The problem is not in your example. In the scenario you provided I would say the State is well within its power to do something about the situation. However this is not the issue, the issue is those who will be racial profiling and make no mistake it will happen. So to you OP I say "Thank you" and congradulate you on a job well done, if we could clone you then I would feel better about these bills. Sadly that is not the case.

I do not understand the problem with asking people who look hispanic for proof of citizenship, especially if you are in a border state, racial proifling, maybe but if I was in Sweden and investigating a murder committred by a person of African descent, I probably wouldn't be going up to the nearest blond asking for ID now would I?

Originally posted by rcwj1975
...Case in point. I mentioned on another thread that the other day I stopped a 2009 Ford Mustang doing 89 in a 55 and the driver happened to be "hispanic". Now the driver could not produce a valid drivers license, BUT handed me these awesome FAKE International Drivers Licenses they get for $50 here in Atlanta. Now after a few checks it was confirmed he was not licensed to drive the vehicle so he was arrested. Now, this driver is 24 years old working at Tyson Chicken driving a $30,000 car...ok fine, but then while searching his person I find a Social Security Card in his wallet and the card ended up being stolen and this scumbag was using and DESTROYING the credit of an elderly woman in the area, while he was thriving. Anyway, the car was impounded and I charged him, taking him to the jail. So I ask you folks...as a LEO KNOWING (100%) that this guy is not only a criminal...he IS an ILLEGAL alien from Mexico...should I and my State have the power to make sure he is deported back?...

Someone, PLEASE give me a legitimate answer as to why local police and other agencies should NOT be allowed to deal with these guys/gals directly and get them out of here.

EDIT TO ADD: He had NO passport, NO visa, NO nothing....and yes he did admit he paid a coyote $200 to come across somewhere in TX....

[edit on 4/28/2010 by rcwj1975]

Interesting story. Congrats on gathering the facts regarding this encounter you had, sharing them here and asking for our input.

I think you have misplaced the blame here to the illegal alien in total. Indeed he needs to be deported. But first consider using his testimony to proceed with the following two points.

First you said he admitted that he worked for Tyson Chicken. Now there is your primary suspect, IMO. Law enforcement should have the authority to immediately question those executives and supervisors at Tyson or any company who provided these illegals employment. Put the pain on those who make it profitable for these illegals to break the law and come here for their own enrichment (ie: low wage workers). These companies could be considered the true "scumbags" in this story...prosecute them and if possible put them out of business.

Second go after those who transport these illegals and provide fake documents and $30,000 cars for their pleasure. Go after those who rent appartments or sell property knowingly to illegals. Bust them severely and make it hurt financially to their enterprise.

If the legal system would vigerously proceed in these two areas listed above, much of the incentive would be taken away for illegals to come here in the first place.

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