The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

Originally posted by grey580


Now that's just silly. Like I said in my previous posts. There would have to be mechanisms in place to absorb that amount of people into our society.

FYI you can't get unemployment. At least in the state of florida. not sure about other states. Unless you were fired from a job. you have to build up credits and once they run out no more unemployment.

I never said it would be easy to accomplish. If you are worried about them getting freebies from the government. Then mandate that they not be able to recieve any. No food stamps, housing etc.

And your last sentence there is preposterous. I never said that.

However you totally glossed over my other statement. This country is unable to control our borders. How can you stop illegals from comming in if you can't stop them from entering?

Your solution isn't a solution unless you can protect the borders.

You are right and that we need to control our borders and the government hasn't done much of anything to control them. We would need to do many things in order to control them and because the government/big buisness wants cheap labor that will never happen.

My last statement is not preposterous becuase when an illegal comes across the boarder to have there child so it can born in the United States they are stealing money from every tax payer in the United states so they are stealing from us. Furthermore to give those same people legal status is like someone breaking into your house and demanding they live there.

reply to post by rcwj1975


I am against this bill because I fear the abuse that can and most likely will occur.

As to your question about your scenario and whether or not I think you and other LEO's have the right to deal with these people given a similar type of scenario? I 100% believe that what you did was the right thing and think that believe that illegals, when caught red handed, should be deported.

With all that said, I will repeat myself and say that I worry about the racial profiling that may very well occur as a result of this bill. I think that there needs to be VERY strong language and a very strong line needs to be drawn regarding what constitutes reasonable suspicion to question a person suspected of being illegal and therefore asked to produce identification.

Personally, I don't see this as a unreasonable opinion to have, but apparently, others do and are even borderline hateful about the fact that I and others believe this.

Did anyone see this article from Sept. 2009? There is an incredible amount of data regarding the border situation/problems in border
states.


www.cnsnews.com...

[edit on 29-4-2010 by manta78]

While we're on the topic of the border, whatever happened to the Minutemen? You don't hear much from them anymore. Are they still active?

According to this it looks like they are:

groups.myspace.com...


CYA/Disclaimer: I am not a member or financial supporter of same before anyone posts makes that comment. I did an internet search, that's it.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by manta78]

reply to post by rcwj1975


I'll tell you what one problem is by using an allegory. My granddaughter is latino, by virtue of her mom, my daughter, having married a venezualan. Let's say I don't want her driving to school at Embry Riddle, in Prescott Arizona, alone. So I ride along. Let's say that along I-40 some really bigoted AZ cop sees her driving my Lexus, and because it appears to him it's far too nice a car for some "beaner" to be driving, he's suspicous. So he stops her. The new law allows that by creating a new crime of trespass for undocumented aliens and probable cause isn't required, only a "reasonable suspicion", whatever the hell that means. So he pulls her over , puts her up against the car and demands papers. As an American citizen by birth, She left them at home in DC, so he says she's under arrest, cuffs her and frisks her, including a hand up her skirt. At that point I pull my PPK and proceed to blow most of his skull off in self defense of my granddaughter who is being illegally arrested ,molested and kidnapped. And now I'm in trouble. That is a problem. The line that they can only ask for papers from a person legitimately arrested for some other crime is a talking point lie perpetuated by the racist apologetics for this shameful unconstitutional law. They created a whole new crime of breathing while brown in Arizona.

Originally posted by 4nsicphd
reply to post by rcwj1975

 

I'll tell you what one problem is by using an allegory. My granddaughter is latino, by virtue of her mom, my daughter, having married a venezualan. Let's say I don't want her driving to school at Embry Riddle, in Prescott Arizona, alone. So I ride along. Let's say that along I-40 some really bigoted AZ cop sees her driving my Lexus, and because it appears to him it's far too nice a car for some "beaner" to be driving, he's suspicous. So he stops her. The new law allows that by creating a new crime of trespass for undocumented aliens and probable cause isn't required, only a "reasonable suspicion", whatever the hell that means. So he pulls her over , puts her up against the car and demands papers. As an American citizen by birth, She left them at home in DC, so he says she's under arrest, cuffs her and frisks her, including a hand up her skirt. At that point I pull my PPK and proceed to blow most of his skull off in self defense of my granddaughter who is being illegally arrested ,molested and kidnapped. And now I'm in trouble. That is a problem. The line that they can only ask for papers from a person legitimately arrested for some other crime is a talking point lie perpetuated by the racist apologetics for this shameful unconstitutional law. They created a whole new crime of breathing while brown in Arizona.

Get a hold of yourself grandpa...Some of my colleagues are Mexican who drive fancy cars and they are here legally. They have had no issues and they are fine if they are asked to show their ID for LEGAL STATUS purposes, they want to curb the ILLEGAL problem.

And shame on you for talking about your grand daughter that way, despicable...Now I wonder if she is really your granddaughter or something else?



[edit on 29-4-2010 by prionace glauca]

Originally posted by 4nsicphd
reply to post by rcwj1975

 

I'll tell you what one problem is by using an allegory. My granddaughter is latino, by virtue of her mom, my daughter, having married a venezualan. Let's say I don't want her driving to school at Embry Riddle, in Prescott Arizona, alone. So I ride along. Let's say that along I-40 some really bigoted AZ cop sees her driving my Lexus, and because it appears to him it's far too nice a car for some "beaner" to be driving, he's suspicous. So he stops her.

The type of car and college means nothing. I don't care if someone is driving an expensive car or getting a 4.0 in college, IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL. Now the fact that YOUR making it a race case puts you on the same bigoted level as your make believe cop...since this incident HASN'T occured that actually makes you the ONLY bigoted racist thus far....so I will continue to the traffic stop....

The new law allows that by creating a new crime of trespass for undocumented aliens and probable cause isn't required, only a "reasonable suspicion", whatever the hell that means.

ARS has been around a LONG time so please look up the legal definition so you know what it means. I, as an officer, agree that reasonable suspicion should not be the ONLY requirement when it comes to the "status" of checking someones citizenship, but again since we have NO IDEA how the officers plan to handle this, people sure are drawing ALOT of assumptions thus far.

So he pulls her over , puts her up against the car and demands papers. As an American citizen by birth, She left them at home in DC, so he says she's under arrest, cuffs her and frisks her, including a hand up her skirt.

Ok can you seriously be anymore dramatic with the hand up the skirt on the side of a highway? As for her not having her drivers license that is a legal issue that can be properly dealt with over a radio or in car computer...so your attempt to turn him into an automatic villan is sad....and this is the part people are missing. All we need is a name and DOB and from there we can get ALL the other info we need to check on everything else. So she wouldn't be under arrest at that point....

At that point I pull my PPK and proceed to blow most of his skull off in self defense of my granddaughter who is being illegally arrested ,molested and kidnapped.

Again dramatic....but in your scenerio IF an officer was feeling up your grandaughter on the side of a highway UNDER HER SKIRT I would not object to you taking measures to stop it, and legally I would say shooting the officer is not going to work well for you...kicking his a@@...sure thing, I'll even back you.

And now I'm in trouble. That is a problem. The line that they can only ask for papers from a person legitimately arrested for some other crime is a talking point lie perpetuated by the racist apologetics for this shameful unconstitutional law. They created a whole new crime of breathing while brown in Arizona.

Racist....hardly...I don't see race in this bill. I see a state fed up with people breaking laws to come and use and abuse a nation that they have raped and robbed of resources for YEARS and continue to do so in larger numbers. I see a culture of people who don't give a sh1t about anyone as long as they can USE those who will give them what they want. I see people NOT willing to change their own homeland, run from it, yet come here and brag how proud they are to be mexican...that makes them either stupid or VERY confused. And the other problem i see is the ones who come here the RIGHT way who actually love the nation that gives them everything they dreamed of, who takes pride in their original mexican/hispanic culture BUT understands that AMERICA is the only place that cared enough to let them prosper, are scared to death of those now sneaking across looking to make anything and anyone a victim so they can find an easy pay day or power......people shouldn't be so worked up over AZ...they should be worked up over the folks who continue to do it ILLEGALLY putting us in this situation......last time I checked...if the Mexicans stayed in Mexico, bills like this wouldn't have to be passed..right? So who is REALLY to blame here?

To the OP, I fully appreciate all of your hard work, you guys are often criticized for doing a job only a handful of people can actually do, so props to you, sir!

I just want to say that we are wasting way too many resources on this issue and need to get to the root of the problem, the border. Shut it down. Put up a wall, a fence, I don't care what it is, but we need to protect our fellow Americans from all of these illegals border jumping and taking away our tax dollars. I just don't understand why people think it is okay for these people to break the law and get away with it, and then proceed to rob us all in the meantime, I just don't get it.

As far as the racial profiling goes, there's not much we can do about it. Honestly, I'm pretty sure we know that most illegal immigrants that come from Mexico are of Hispanic origin, so cops are going to be scrutinized either way just because they pulled a hispanic person over in the first place. But if you are a card-carrying citizen of this country, then you should have no problem producing the verification to prove it. It's just something that people are going to have to get over and deal with. It's people like Al Sharpton who want you to believe that all cops are racist, and that they are all racially profiling in the first place. Well, he just needs to get over himself and realize the bigger issue here.

When are Americans going to understand that we are being taken advantage of here, and to epic proportions. I don't recall many of these people opposed to this law bashing middle eastern countries for profiling us when we go over there? And what happens if an American citizen goes to Mexico illegally? He goes to jail for a few years in a sh*tty Mexican jail and after that gets thrown out of the country.

Anyways, so what if all of these illegals can't get any work because of this law, hopefully it will make them want to leave, or not come here in the first place. Law enforcement needs to find as many of them as they can, and deport them, and stop them from coming back. I don't care if there are a few million illegals that will be affected, get em out.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
Personally, I think that he should be given a trial.

If found guilty, he should have to pay his fine, do his time and then immediately be deported.

I think that he should have to wait a minimum of 5 years before he would be eligible to get a visa to come to this country legally.

Absolutely. I think they should do this, and if he doesn't for whatever reason have the money, or a car for that matter, he should be made to do community service work in a nice looking orange jumpsuit, that says on the back "I'M SORRY FOR TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AMERICANS"

Originally posted by Seitler
reply to post by mryanbrown

 

For you in particular, but anyone else who is not sure what the Fourth Amendment means, here it is explained:

FOURTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution]
'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

To pass muster under the Fourth Amendment, detention must be 'reasonable. ' See U.S. v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 542-44 ('85) (analyzing constitutionality of length of traveler's border detention under Fourth Amendment reasonableness standard); Caban, 728 F.2d at 75 (considering whether duration of border detention without a hearing was reasonable).

In the context of a criminal arrest, a detention of longer than 48 hours without a probable cause determination violates the Fourth Amendment as a matter of law in the absence of a demonstrated emergency or other extraordinary circumstance. See County of Riverside v. McLaughlin, 111 S.Ct. 1661, 670 ('91). However, the Supreme Court arrived at this rule by considering the time it takes to complete administrative steps typically incident to arrest.....

Fourth Amendment

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Seitler]

It's extremely hard not to understand that the 4th Amendment means. or any Amendment. They were written during a time when it was understood that all laws must be easily understood.

No adminmistrative legalese. Clear and concise English of the day.

And what it simply says, despite supreme court rulings ignorant to it's desiged intentions. Is that the government WILL NOT INTERFERE WITH YOU WITHOUT A WARRANT OBTAINED UNDER PROBABLE CAUSE WITH OATHS TO BACK UP ISSUING THE WARRANT UNLESS A CRIME WAS WITNESSED.

How can you misunderstand that. There is no arresting until we can find evidence to keep you in jail. There was no arresting suspects until a warrant was received.

But then again we didn't have petty unlawful statutes to arrest people under anyways, despite not commiting a crime.

I rest my case dear sirs.

Obviously we can see the illogical conclusion that "no warrant without probable cause".

Somehow means "probable cause to arrest before warrant"

And that's really what this whole issue does boil down to.

If the police were just doing their job, this wouldn't be needed.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by mryanbrown]

reply to post by prionace glauca



So your cool with all "USA LEGAL LATINOS" must hold "papers" in AZ in case they get stopped?

should they also get micro chipped?

[edit on 29-4-2010 by dalek]

while searching his person I find a Social Security Card in his wallet and the card ended up being stolen and this scumbag was using and DESTROYING the credit of an elderly woman in the area, while he was thriving.

Nope. He wouldn't be able to use her number with a different name. He could probably use it if he had the same name or maybe even a male name, but he couldn't use it to get a job or use it under a name that doesn't match up.

there is allot of ignorance associated with the Arizona bill.


Most people against this bill, or even raising a response about it, is based off of some personal affliction. Looking at the numbers i bet their are more brown people against this bill then white people. Simply because I think most are looking at this bill as a personal attack or personal focus upon them. Looking at the broad language in this bill you see nothing in it where it says focus on brown people , yet the brown people think it is focused upon them. Not to mention Arizona is getting sued over this bill under the clause of "racist"... America, has become a very sick place in some places I think. I would say due to the fact that the borders have been unprotected for over a century, people have been coming and going illegally, and making $$, now their is something in place in AZ, that basically is a trump card to confront it.

The borders need to be protected, this bill is not the fix all, but at least it is an attempt, it appears Washington, does not want to concern itself with protecting our borders, nor punishing illegal aliens regardless of their color, when they break laws.

I will tell you why... Because they do not have the guts to try and do something about it like Arizona. At least Arizona, whether it be right or wrong had or have the guts to try to protect their border and citizen, whether it be right or wrong. Least they have guts..

RACIST.. LOL..

Sharpton is all over this..

talk about standards.

Originally posted by dalek
reply to post by prionace glauca

 

So your cool with all "USA LEGAL LATINOS" must hold "papers" in AZ in case they get stopped?

should they also get micro chipped?

[edit on 29-4-2010 by dalek]

Yes I am okay with all LEGALS presenting ID/Papers for verification also....I will space that word out for better comprehension.... L E G A L S....

You see a majority of LEGALS don't have a problem with this, as I am one.

Do you even have a ID, a Cell Phone, or a US Passport? If you do then brace yourself for what I am about to tell you...You are already CHIPPED..



[edit on 29-4-2010 by prionace glauca]

Ok, here goes, tongue in cheek.... Why don't we quickly get a national call out for people to work the oil spill, tell them we are paying $13.00 an hour wage's, and then when all the illegal aliens come to snap up those great paying job's, we just load em up, tell them they have to go out to an island to start the clean up, and send em right across the gulf, back to good ol home again, and bang problem solved..... just a thought

Originally posted by jeh22
Nope. He wouldn't be able to use her number with a different name. He could probably use it if he had the same name or maybe even a male name, but he couldn't use it to get a job or use it under a name that doesn't match up.

He didn't use a different name....he used her name, social and DOB to get credit cards online...and I believe the investigators ended finding 6 other peoples names and info in his apartment. This happens so much it would make peoples heads spin....and in my experiance over 75% of the items bought with the fraudulant cards is sent back to the family in Mexico...don't you just love it.

To the other posters who mentioned the border security....your right...we all know the hole in a sinking ship needs to be plugged first....but that can only be achived one of two ways.

1. DC finally steps up and makes it happen...

2. The people in force make it happen and the government can pucker up and kiss our backsides.

I wish we wouldn't need a wall....wish we didn't even need a fence and could enjoy our neighbors to the south...but they have made it clear WAY TO MANY TIMES....we can't...we just don't have the resources to do so like we used too.

RCWJ1975 I'm with you. In fact we should do as Eisenhower did. He used 1/10 of the border patrols we now have and purged the U.S. of illegal alliens. One of the differences was that he got rid of the politicians that profiteered from the illegals and also he didn't just drop them back over the border so they could turn around and walk back in. He had them transported 500 to 800 miles deep into Mexico and dropped off. It worked then, it can work now.

reply to post by rcwj1975


Hello good Sir,

I noticed you felt my questions were undeserving of an answer, by me being a person who never gives up hope have a few more for you.

Are you Mexican?

I ask this because I cross the US boarder every day and i think aside from North Koreans and Traitorous Mexicans who would pay for the chance of shooting the very same illegal mother that sloped through a sewer to anchor them in America there is only like one white guy boarder patrol officer.

I have noticed that the most professional Border Patrol officers are Black. They do their job, they search ask for my passport then send me on my way. Oh and they speak English.

Then there is the White boarder officers who make you wait a little longer, give you some speach about terrorist in Mexico but are pretty professional too. They speak English too.

Then there is the Legal immigrant boarder patrol officers, these guys are as unprofessional as it gets. The north Korean ones don't even speak English, after informing them that I don't speak Chinese they always send me to secondary for inspection knowing I don't have anything.

Then there is the Mexicans who do speak English but refuse to do so. they ask their questions in Spanish and keep doing so even tho i'm responding in Bostonian English. they take forever and always mess up my neatly packed stuff in my trunk. They stare at my passport for 10 minutes before running it through the computer and then they go back to asking me stupid questions like "Where are you coming from" Mexico....*faceplam*

I have noticed that Mexicans and North Korean American law enforcement are the ones that have the same passion as you do for your job, the real Americans White and Black guys are just professional.

So witch is it?

North Korean or Mexican?

Your adoring Fan,

Izzy.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Izarith]

Call me insensitive but racial profiling is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Not by a long shot. And the fact that it is an issue that can be so easily avoided by carrying the correct ID makes it even more of a non-issue.

Catch a plane, show your ID. Get a job, show your ID. Use your credit card, show your ID. I mean, what's the big deal?