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The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

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posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:04 PM
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Federal Government has authority because the states allow it too. If states deem issues that require attention, they can enact laws to take care of that situation. Now Arizona, Next the rest of the Nation.




posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by rcwj1975
 



This law doesn't address the state being able to deport anyone. It only allows the state to ask for immigration verification.

Now the problem here is that the USCIS (immigration control) has no authority over US Citizens. None whatsoever! And under federal law only immigration judges and border patrol officers can ask for verification.

Also it is completely legal for me as a US Citizen to walk around without any ID on me. It is also legal for me to leave my state in a vehicle or to travel in a vehicle as a passenger without any form of ID.

So I ask you how exactly is it that any officer whether they have probable cause or not should be allow to ask anyone whether they are legally in this country and then to have that officer require proof?

Even the federal government admits via USCIS documents that they can't even legitimately and constitutionally enforce that all immigrants carry their visa or greencard with them at all times. Even tho as an immigrant you are told you must carry proof at all times. This is because of a little thing called the 4th amendment. Just looking at someone you can not tell if they are legally here a naturalized citizen or a natural born citizen.

Now I am all for STATES being able to deport someone once it is proven in a court with a immigration judge that this person is illegally in the US. How you get to that step is when they are arrested on another charge and placed in front of a judge who can then ask them for proof of citizenship.

I however, will never submit willingly to any state law officer asking me for proof of my citizenship simply because this smacks of fascism and goes against my civil rights.

And just so everyone knows I am totally against amnesty, I think we need to tighten our borders and actually deport people who are found to be here illegally.


USCIS only processes applications. The enforcement arm of immigration is ICE and CBP.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:07 PM
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There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the Federal Laws we already have on the books regarding illegal immigration.

In specific that illegals already get bans.

Frankly if the Federal Gov would just enforce the laws it already has we would have much less problem with States thinking they need to overstep their bounds.

Immigration and Naturalization Act:
Sec. 212. [8 U.S.C. 1182] (a)(9)(C)(ii)
ACT 212 - GENERAL CLASSES OF ALIENS INELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE VISAS
AND INELIGIBLE FOR ADMISSION; WAIVERS OF INADMISSIBILLITY
Sec. 212. [8 U.S.C. 1182]
(a) Classes of Aliens Ineligible for Visas or Admission.-Except as
otherwise provided in this Act, aliens who are inadmissible under the
following paragraphs are ineligible to receive visas and ineligible to
be admitted to the United States:
(9) 12/ ALIENS PREVISOUSLY Removed.-
(C) Aliens unlawfully present after previous immigration violations.-
(i) In general.-Any alien who-
(I) has been unlawfully present in the United States for an
aggregate period of more than 1 year, or
(II) has been ordered removed under section 235(b)(1), section
240, or any other provision of law, and who enters or attempts to
reenter the United States without being admitted is inadmissible.
(ii) EXCEPTION.-Clause (i) shall not apply to an alien seeking
admission more than 10 years after the date of the alien's last
departure from the United States if, prior to the alien's
reembarkation at a place outside the United States or attempt to be
readmitted from a foreign contiguous territory, the Attorney General
has consented to the alien's reapplying for admission."



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


Actually the ICE must work within the Immigration and Naturalization ACT. Which is governed by the USCIS in conjuction with the DHS which gives ICE its control.

I am a long time consultant for the USCIS. Back when it was the INS.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by SheaWolf
reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


First states have no authority over immigration matters that power was given by the founders of this country to our legislative branch. You know the same constitution you choose to uphold when you enforce the law?

While it is true that it is the duty of the federal government to handle this matter, they have been most heinously derelict of their duties. In such cases the states DO have the authority and the duty to do the job themselves.

No they don't, point me to a case where the supreme court or any law that has been upheld has held that to be true?


NOT TO MENTION IT'S NOT A CRIME TO BE HERE ILLEGALLY

It's not???

Yes you found someone who was illegal, guess what they are everywhere. Not all of them are criminals.

I am curious...exactly what do you think ILLEGAL means???


How do you think EOIR, CBP can deport people without going through criminal courts? It's against the law, but it's not a CRIME you understand? The concept is pretty simple. When you commit a crime in this country you go to a criminal court. EOIR is not a criminal court it's an administrative one. Ask anyone who works in EOIR hell look up EOIR yourself. Immigration matters like that circumvent regular court systems for efficiency. Sometimes district courts rule on immigration matters that's fine. But EOIR and CBP deport people administratively.

I'm curious besides the law in AZ where can you find a law that says it's a CRIME to be here illegally? It makes someone inadmissible. Look at the INA...hell 8CFR?



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by rcwj1975
 




Seem's the Chinese have the same immigration problem.... very interesting article....




www.atimes.com...



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


Bingo! I am so tired of people saying that it isn't against the law to be here "undocumented". That these people are criminals. HELLO! Yes they are. And I agree that the federal government doesn't do it's job where it comes to deporting people.

Heck I know of a story in New Mexico of a local law agency that was told that they would only deport people when they had a bus load ready. Well since this local jail couldn't hold more than a handful of people they were forced to let these illegals go.

Crazy! Heck I will drive them to the border myself!



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:18 PM
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[/url]

Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


Actually the ICE must work within the Immigration and Naturalization ACT. Which is governed by the USCIS in conjuction with the DHS which gives ICE its control.

I am a long time consultant for the USCIS. Back when it was the INS.


That is great but no the INA is not governed by USCIS...it was written by congress that's why it's called an ACT. DHS wasn't arround when the INA was written...I sure hope you don't tell people that because it's wrong.

You are also wrong USCIS was not INS it was a part of INS. INS was split into CBP, ICE, and USCIS when DHS was formed. Please get your facts straight.

INA



The Immigration and Nationality Act, or INA, was created in 1952. Before the INA, a variety of statutes governed immigration law but were not organized in one location. The McCarran-Walter bill of 1952, Public Law No. 82-414, collected and codified many existing provisions and reorganized the structure of immigration law. The Act has been amended many times over the years, but is still the basic body of immigration law.

The INA is divided into titles, chapters, and sections. Although it stands alone as a body of law, the Act is also contained in the United States Code (U.S.C.). The code is a collection of all the laws of the United States. It is arranged in fifty subject titles by general alphabetic order. Title 8 of the U.S. Code is but one of the fifty titles and deals with "Aliens and Nationality". When browsing the INA or other statutes you will often see reference to the U.S. Code citation. For example, Section 208 of the INA deals with asylum, and is also contained in 8 U.S.C. 1158. Although it is correct to refer to a specific section by either its INA citation or its U.S. code, the INA citation is more commonly used.


DHS gives ICE control because DHS split up the Legacy INS.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Wildbob77
Personally, I think that he should be given a trial.

If found guilty, he should have to pay his fine, do his time and then immediately be deported.

I think that he should have to wait a minimum of 5 years before he would be eligible to get a visa to come to this country legally.


So we should spend taxpayer money housing this person in a state run or county run facility, handle all his medical needs as well as provide him shelter, food, water, etc etc? Sorry.. I do not see it that way.

How are you going to enforce this person to "pay his fine"? They will tell you that they can not work since they are in custody and therefor can not pay, but dont worry you can believe that there is a secret stash some where so that in the event they are deported, they can get back!

And really? make them wait 5 years to get a visa? 5 whole years? To come back into a country where they were already breaking the law to begin with? Sorry, coming to the US is not a right. If you come here illegally, break the law while you are here, you are no better than any other criminal. Why would we want them back?

And why should someone who has entered this country illegally, has stayed here illegally, be provided the same rights as a US citizen or anyone else who came into this country the right way?



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Identified
This law doesn't address the state being able to deport anyone. It only allows the state to ask for immigration verification.


Right, and that is the question I am posing...is it really going to change anything other then identifying ILLEGALS? SHOULD states be given the authority to deport illegals? I believe so, since our government refuses to and has OTHER interests in mind that are NOT the American Peoples interests.


Now the problem here is that the USCIS (immigration control) has no authority over US Citizens. None whatsoever! And under federal law only immigration judges and border patrol officers can ask for verification.


Again, thats the point...isn't it time for a change? Obviously "the way" its been done DOESN'T work.


Also it is completely legal for me as a US Citizen to walk around without any ID on me. It is also legal for me to leave my state in a vehicle or to travel in a vehicle as a passenger without any form of ID.


True as a citzen you can walk anywhere you want without ID...and you can travel in a vehicle without an ID...you just can't DRIVE said vehicle....but again the key is being a LEGAL citizen.


So I ask you how exactly is it that any officer whether they have probable cause or not should be allow to ask anyone whether they are legally in this country and then to have that officer require proof?


I am not saying it should be done randomly. When your arrested and cannot prove citizenship, GONE. When your put in a situation where ID is required and you don't have it and its looked into and your found to be illegal, GONE. I have no problems playing cat and mouse until we find them legitimatly, but once found that is where the change is to be made.


Even the federal government admits via USCIS documents that they can't even legitimately and constitutionally enforce that all immigrants carry their visa or greencard with them at all times. Even tho as an immigrant you are told you must carry proof at all times. This is because of a little thing called the 4th amendment. Just looking at someone you can not tell if they are legally here a naturalized citizen or a natural born citizen.


Well work in the city long enough and you CAN tell who is here without "papers"....hell I drove down Highway 9 an hour ago and there are about 300 Mexicans standing on the sidewalk with signs...FOR HIRE....and I bet my paycheck 290 of them are ILLEGAL. Did I stop them and ask for "their papers", NO, but its also not rocket science.


Now I am all for STATES being able to deport someone once it is proven in a court with a immigration judge that this person is illegally in the US. How you get to that step is when they are arrested on another charge and placed in front of a judge who can then ask them for proof of citizenship.


Sure lets spend money to allow some guy to say YES or NO when we as cops see the SAME information. The courts and judge see NOTHING and look at NOTHING any different...WE PROVIDE THE COURTS WITH THE INFORMATION!!!! This idea you have to be a fed or trained person to make sure they are illegal is the biggest SCAM and BS I have ever seen and people are sucking it up and falling for it.


I however, will never submit willingly to any state law officer asking me for proof of my citizenship simply because this smacks of fascism and goes against my civil rights.


Thats fine but as a citizen I think people ( a majority) WANT to show who is and who ISN'T a citizen. People are fed up with ILLEGALS of all backgrounds coming here and being handed things WE have to work our a@@es of for. People are sick of being denied this and that while those NOT ENTITLED are granted such things. This is about depleted resources that we can no longer afford to hand out to those who shouldn't be here and who simply run back home once they got what they needed from us.


And just so everyone knows I am totally against amnesty, I think we need to tighten our borders and actually deport people who are found to be here illegally.


Thats what the majority are for, but people are failing to see that it may take an extreme measure to reel in the out of control line that we allowed so far. Again, atleast here in GA people WANT to show "their papers" so we can get rid of those who don't have them. Does it have to do with racism, hate, rights, etc...NO, it has to do with COMMON SENSE....people (citizens) of all races, creeds, and colors are sick of paying for anchor babies, and those who take advantage of our compasion...and then we sit back and watch them laugh at us as they use us and abuse us...just to simply come and go as they please and to NEVER want to assimilate......I mean how long do you keep getting burnt by the hot stove before your smart enough to turn it off?



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


Bingo! I am so tired of people saying that it isn't against the law to be here "undocumented". That these people are criminals. HELLO! Yes they are. And I agree that the federal government doesn't do it's job where it comes to deporting people.

Heck I know of a story in New Mexico of a local law agency that was told that they would only deport people when they had a bus load ready. Well since this local jail couldn't hold more than a handful of people they were forced to let these illegals go.

Crazy! Heck I will drive them to the border myself!


Yes they are here against the law, it's not a crime (except for the az law) Though some of them are criminals and they should be deported.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by Wildbob77
Personally, I think that he should be given a trial.

If found guilty, he should have to pay his fine, do his time and then immediately be deported.

I think that he should have to wait a minimum of 5 years before he would be eligible to get a visa to come to this country legally.


I think any of the illegals that come here and then willfully commit
a felony, that could financially ruin a US citizen, should not be eligible
for citizenship.

We have enough ppl like that here, such as lawyers, politicians,
and wall street financial pirates.

Unfortunately we cannot deport them...yet.



[edit on 29-4-2010 by Ex_MislTech]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by Ex_MislTech

Originally posted by Wildbob77
Personally, I think that he should be given a trial.

If found guilty, he should have to pay his fine, do his time and then immediately be deported.

I think that he should have to wait a minimum of 5 years before he would be eligible to get a visa to come to this country legally.


I think any of the illegals that come here and then willfully commit
a felony that could financial ruin a US citizen should not be eligible
for citizenship.

We have enough ppl like that here, such as lawyers and politicians.

Unfortunately we cannot deport them...yet.



Haha that's fantastic.


And if they do something like that they shouldn't be able to get citizenship.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


I am well aware that the DHS wasn't around until after 9/11. I would hope everyone is aware of that.

Prior to that the INS was under the DOJ. When they split the INS they put the enforcement and the services under different wings. However both must abide by the law which is stated in the INA.

I am not sure what you are arguing about since the USCIS is NEW it is the name of the Service section of the OLD INS. USCIS was not UNDER INS.

Remember before we had USCIS and after it was split we had BCIS. Remember? So I am not wrong.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by rcwj1975
 


Dude. I had the exact same problem at my job. (I mentioned it before in another thread). (BTW: I'm a security guard).

It happened to me very recently at these apartments I currently work at, located smack-dab in the middle of a rough neighborhood.

It was during the day I was with my boss and we were chit-chatting with the apartment manager. The maintenance guy walks into the office and points at me and my boss and says "Hey, you all wanna bust some balls right now? Cuz some people are screwing around with the swimming pool." (The swimming pool had been closed off because they were cleaning it and doing some other stuff with it.) The manager, she's like; "What?! Oh God!!"

So me, my boss, and the apartment manager head over to the swimming pool and find this one kid (like 18-20 yrs old) had already swam and there were some other kids on the outside of the fence area loitering next to it.

My boss questions the kid, asking if he lived there, what apartment, was he on the lease, was his family home, did he have ID? We went to the apartment he was living in. He showed his ID. Then we find out later he wasn't even on the lease. Then the kid's older brother butts in (he wasn't on the lease either) and talks crap to me and my boss. My boss questions him too and asks for his ID. Dude walks away back up the stairs into the apartment. Me and my boss follow behind him. My boss grabs him, handcuffs him, pats him down, searching him. My boss hands me the dude's ID, which was an expired visa to copy information off of it onto my note-pad and I hand it back to him.

My boss radios in the dude's information to check for warrants, etc. Dude was clean all the way around save for the fact that he was an illegal immigrant. (And he spoke PERFECT English, btw).

After we let the dude go, the apartment manager gives the people living in the apartment a lease violation. I tell my boss "I can't believe we had to let him go despite he was an illegal." My boss is like "Well yeah. If it was an apartment or house full of illegals then yeah--we call the border patrol and they come out. Otherwise if it's just one illegal like we had here, border patrol could care less."




posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


Technically they are not able to get citizenship if a felon. Not only would they incur a ban but they would never be able to meet the moral turpitude section of the immigration law- specifically for Naturalization.

However, whether the idiot filing their paperwork pays attention to this is another question.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:31 PM
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You stated that USCIS governed the INA they don't, they have to abide by it just like any other immigration agency. They are governed by the law. Yes there are mutual agreements between ICE and USCIS that are not in the original INA. Most of the time ICE doesn't really like to deal with USCIS.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


Technically they are not able to get citizenship if a felon. Not only would they incur a ban but they would never be able to meet the moral turpitude section of the immigration law- specifically for Naturalization.

However, whether the idiot filing their paperwork pays attention to this is another question.



They can still get it, i've seen felons convicted of drug crime get citizenship. Have seen some with rape as well. If you have been in the business as long as you say you have you know there are exceptions/waivers for everything.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by rcwj1975
 


Heck, no! The USCIS, ICE, or CBP should never have control over US Citizens. I don't care how out of control the aliens get in this country.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by Everwatcher33
 


I am well aware that the DHS wasn't around until after 9/11. I would hope everyone is aware of that.

Prior to that the INS was under the DOJ. When they split the INS they put the enforcement and the services under different wings. However both must abide by the law which is stated in the INA.

I am not sure what you are arguing about since the USCIS is NEW it is the name of the Service section of the OLD INS. USCIS was not UNDER INS.

Remember before we had USCIS and after it was split we had BCIS. Remember? So I am not wrong.


The duties of USCIS were under INS, just like ICE and CBP were. I don't agree that they should have split it up but what can you do.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]



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