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Mystery Statue, What is it's origins? Pagan, Templar, something else?

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posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 09:34 PM
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To the point, I have a mystery on my hands and I'm not really sure if this is the correct forum to place this in, but it seemed to fit the best. I am hoping that my fellow ATSers can aid me in identification of this relic and piecing together just what this is, and if it holds any meaning.




First, a little history and all I do know about it.

This is a bronze statue of a creature similar to a gargoyle with a winged head, holding a removable halberd bearing a standard, and wearing an emblemed gorget and a shield upon its back. Its left forleleg pins down a serpent which is coiled as if to strike back at the beast.

In an old Italian script around the base are the inscriptions:

RICORDO DELLA FESTA STORICA- which translates to something like "in memory of the historic festivity" or festival.


TORINO followed by what appears to be a year, either 1887 or 1007- which refers to the Turin region of Italy.

note: I have heard that Turin possibly hosted several Pagan festivals in 1887, this is something to research.

GIANDUIA- which my searches have only associated with modern chocolatiers and an 18th century cartoon caracter? Need help here.


And RIDET BENEFIC(M or N)DO- which I simply have no clue as to the meaning or the exact id of the letter looking like an "m". Definately need help here.


The standards iconography along with that of the shield and gorget remind me very much of Templar designs, but also of others as well.




My sister once took this item to a business ran by some "old country" Italians who would not speak of it and made my sister take the statue away. They treated it like it was evil or something.






The casting print



I am hoping that some of you may be able to help identify this item.

Also, I have more pictures and detail shots I can share. Sorry, I'm struggling trying to learn the image posting procedures and have no clue how to embed these images.




posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:18 PM
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Ok I am trying to help find out who that flag belongs to.

The flag is red, with a black cross. It is difficult to find a exact match.

However, I have some very close matches that may aid us in finding where this originates from.

It is very close to the putative flag of the Order of the Temple.
Except in that flag the bottom is white while the top is red (with a black cross).

It is also a very close match to the flag of the Order of Knights Hospitaller.

However that flag is all red with a white cross.

So I am close but digging through these flags is painful.

If anyone wants to pitch in and help, I'd appreciate it.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Hmmm, apparently the "Order of Christ" used black crosses on their flags pretty often.

But I cannot find a red flag with the black cross on it.

There is quite a bit of debate/confusion as to what the black cross means/stood for.

I'll keep digging.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:27 PM
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i think the face especially the eyes and nose are interesting. is this an animal or an idea?



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


How sure are you that the statue has a black cross? It looks like the paint has flaked off that part. Where are you looking at these flags, I might be able to help.

To the OP, how did you acquire this statue?



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:34 PM
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The spear holding the flag is tipped by a fleurs-de-lis ; which is commonly used throughout French history on their flags.

The shield on it's back is for sure a shield of a Knightly Order, but there are no colors in it for me to determine which one.

Also, the cross on the neck of the statue further indicates it is of a Knightly Order, which one I am not sure yet.

If the flag colors (red with black cross) are any indicator, and the shield was originally in those colors; I will have to go with the Knights Hospitaller (Knights of Malta).

I really do not know much else to tell you.

It looks to be quite old however.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by glitch88
 


I just typed in "red flag black cross" in google.

And like 90% of all hits are totally irrelevant. I had to sift through a ton of garbage.

This website is really good though.
flagspot.net...

flagspot.net...

I went digging through like 100 +pages of this stuff lol.


[edit on 27-4-2010 by muzzleflash]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:38 PM
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Monarchist symbolism

The lion is the supreme example of a monarchic animal, a symbol of force and courage. This sculpture is thus also a tribute to the July Monarchy and King Louis-Philippe, at a time when there was widespread discontent with the regime established after the July Revolution (1830). The king's accession to the throne had taken place under the constellations of Leo (the lion) and Hydra (the sea serpent). The sculpture therefore symbolized celestial approval of this political change.

Also found this on wiki.


Piedmont was an initial springboard for Italy's unification in 1859-1861, following earlier unsuccessful wars against the Austrian Empire in 1820-1821 and 1848-1849. This process is sometimes referred to as Piedmontisation. However, the efforts were later contradicted by efforts of rural farmers.[1][2] The House of Savoy became Kings of Italy, and Turin briefly became the capital of Italy. However, the addition of territory paradoxically reduced Piedmont's importance to the kingdom, and the capital was moved to Florence, and then to Rome. One remaining recognition of Piedmont's historical role was that the crown prince of Italy was known as the Prince of Piedmont.


en.wikipedia.org...

I guess Piedmont was the capitol of Italy but changed to Florence and then to Rome? Also the coat of arms for the Lord of Piedmont was a cross on a shield.





posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Knights Hospitaller used a white cross on a black background as far as I remember/search shows. The black cross was a symbol of the Knights Teutonic.

I'm thinking it should be a White cross on a red background.

English Crusader Flag


edit: I'm thinking the black you are seeing is just a petina on the metal, the same black coloration is in other spots on the statue as well.

[edit on 4/27/2010 by eNumbra]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:53 PM
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New member here, first post.

I speak Italian and from the words I can offer the following.

First off - "RICORDO DELLA FESTA STORICA" basically means "Souvenir of the Festive Event"

The second text appears Latin.

"RIDET BENEFIC(M or N)DO"

Ridet = Laugh. Benefice is the only word I can find that matches. My gues is that the added letters are either dialect or grammatical extras. But in general I believe it means "Laugh at Kindness".

The actual sculpture reminds me of the lion imagery that can be found through Veneto (region where Venice is). The lion is prevalent in a lot of the architecture there and in many cases it has been outright vandalized throughout history.

Thats my 2c.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by eNumbra
reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Knights Hospitaller used a white cross on a black background as far as I remember/search shows. The black cross was a symbol of the Knights Teutonic.

I'm thinking it should be a White cross on a red background.

English Crusader Flag


edit: I'm thinking the black you are seeing is just a petina on the metal, the same black coloration is in other spots on the statue as well.

[edit on 4/27/2010 by eNumbra]


Yes the Tutonic Knights used a Black Cross (But on a white background).

The Portuguese Order of Christ also used black crosses as well. The link above that I gave has a few examples of that. (none are an exact match though).

The Hospitallers did use a black background with white cross, but they also used red backgrounds as well. (With White Crosses)

Each Order has over 100 flags associated with it, if not more.

That is what makes it so difficult.

[edit on 27-4-2010 by muzzleflash]

[edit on 27-4-2010 by muzzleflash]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by JBA2848
 


You made a very interesting Post there JBA.

I will follow your research and see where I end up.

Thanks for the info and link!

The fleurs-de-lis on the top of the flag standard really does seem to back up your theory very well.

[edit on 27-4-2010 by muzzleflash]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by kadyr80

GIANDUIA- which my searches have only associated with modern chocolatiers and an 18th century cartoon caracter? Need help here.




Gianduja is a chocolat from Turin in fact, so what you have is only a souvenir from a festival in Turin, the souvenir was a chocolate and the statue must be part of the box, nothing else.

About the Ridet thing, ridet is laugh in latin, so my educated guess is that the figure is just a satyr and that the festival have some cultural relation with Baco's Festivals.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Oops, I see that now. Sorry, was more concerned with my drinks tonight.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 01:32 AM
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The flag in question is Danish A.k.a the biblical tribe of Dan . The Knights Templar had and have a strong hold there . There is a strong relationship between the Templars and the Danish Monarchy , stronger than many of you may believe. The relationship of the Fleur de lis is also connected to both the French and Danish Monarchy also known as the Merovingian Empire/dynasty ,this line goes back to the Roman Empire and beyond .You could be in a shock just how far back they go. These two bloodlines are currently intermarried in Denmark , these two lines are heavily intertwined throughout history . Another significant bloodline has married into this line , this member is of the line of the biblical tribe , that is Judah . Her public history is false. Denmark is also represented by the lion , three as a matter of fact . Denmark is spelt Danmark in it's homeland , hence it's people are called Danes .The origin of the name comes from Dan the tribe and mark meaning the mark of Cain .You are now so close to the truth you seek .All the mysteries of Babylon are right in front of you ! Ask yourself why the leader of the so called Free World has been their twice in a year ? also the one who came before him had a birthday dinner there . Ask yourself what is it about this small nation that is so attractive to the POTUS . I do not say this lightly . I have followed this site for along time . Today has hit a nerve and so today I have joined to speak . I will not be goaded in to further debate today .I am making myself known to you for the first time and that is all .There shall be a time that more will be revealed .My time .I am closer to this than many could ever dream . To answer your question the flag is Danish .



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 03:18 AM
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This is certainly very interesting, especially the Templar cross on the shield and back.

I tried to find some gargoyle references and the Templar used it as symbol, but never with winged ears it seems.

Whats is strange though is that Baphomet is sometimes pictured with Feathered ears instead of horns.

I will look forward to more information about this.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 07:20 AM
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The dark coloration is due to patina. The red on the flag is the only enamel on the item. There is a chipped spot on the paint revealing that at one time the statue was polished which leads me to believe it should be a white or gold cross. My assumption is white.

As to where I got it, my sister passed it along to me as I was always intrigued by it. Her first husband(an odd shady guy with loose mafia ties) and her used to travel and buy interesting items at antique stores. This is one of those items.

As a side note I have always wondered at the italian family refusing to talk about it and making my sister take the thing away and leave. I'm not attributing it to the statue but I do feel that unnaturally bad luck has followed me around for some time now. That's a stretch to correlate and probably has no relevance but I just want to put forth all the info I can.

I appreciate all of your work to help so far, especially the speakers of other languages. Hopefully we can pinpoint this thing.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 11:23 AM
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Another bit of info:

I once saw a photo of another italian bronze statue that was a lion in this same pose. It was so similar that it could have been made by the same artist. The point is that the head on this creature is definately not a lions. It is more like a monkey or ape. And let's not forget the winged head. The creature is for sure not a lion, but something else with the body of a lion.

Let's not forget the coiled serpent too.



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 10:38 AM
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Still seeking information, especially from members who might be familiar with the history of turin and the identity of this relic.




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