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Originally posted by Northwarden
I've already looked at the bottom line, and the entire bible could be rewritten from the 36,000 recorded quotes of early church leaders alone, let alone the thousands upon thousands of originals which exists. The bible is one of the best recorded historical documents we have. The last book to be written was Revelations, which is at the very latest 95 AD. We can also translate back to the original Hebrew and Greek languages
Thank you for your information. I read some where that he edited it. So I though I would get to the bottom of it all. So the bible is 100% the word of GOD?
Originally posted by Northwarden
No, the bible isn't Constantines creation. I've already looked at the bottom line, and the entire bible could be rewritten from the 36,000 recorded quotes of early church leaders alone, let alone the thousands upon thousands of originals which exists. The bible is one of the best recorded historical documents we have. The last book to be written was Revelations, which is at the very latest 95 AD. We can also translate back to the original Hebrew and Greek languages by way of wonderful books called Concordances to make accurate copies. Deny ignorance; your thread and it's assertations are a waste of time. I'm not going to bother with it any more, or future ones of a similar nature, except to pass it's disqualifier along.
Originally posted by USAFJetTech
The bible as a historical record is also a statement who's validity is severly questionable, as I am sure most people would agree that the earth is more than 6,000 years old not too mention any of the other numerouse historical INaccuracies the bible contains.
The last book to be written was Revelations, which is at the very latest 95 AD.
The question “How did Constantine alter the Bible?” has become popular since the release of The Da Vinci Code. The book reads, “The fundamental irony of Christianity! The Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great."1
Is this true? Did Constantine alter the Bible? No, Constantine did not form or collate the Bible. In 306 AD, Constantine (274 – 337 AD) became ruler of the Roman Empire. He gained his fame for becoming the single ruler of the Roman Empire (after he deceived and defeated Licinius) before supposedly converting to Christianity (his conversion is debatable).
In 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea, which was the first general conference of the Christian church. Constantine had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon and it was not even discussed at Nicea. Instead, the council that formed decisions about the canon took place in 397 in Cathage. This was 60 years after Constantine’s death.
It is important to note that 21 books were acknowledged by Christians long before Constantine. In AD 330, Constantine did finance the copying of 50 Christian Scriptures. However, this was not a new Bible, and he did not omit any of the already accepted books.
So, how did Constantine alter the Bible? There is no historical evidence that he did!
Originally posted by Northwarden
they can be trusted to be accurate to the originals.
As for proving the Bible was the inspired word of God, that is not going to be "proven" to anyone that chooses to believe otherwise. Blessed are they who believe through faith. Are many answered prayers, perfect peace of mind, and healing any "proof"? I must say, I advise throwing your doubts on the backburner, and read some testimonies. The more you "attack" something, the less likely you are to find any support from it. An unbiased approach is usually best to uncover the truth of a thing, obviously.
Originally posted by [davinci]
reply to post by DISRAELI
Read The Hiram Key, although it is a book covering the history of the Masons the authors did a thurough investigation into what the 'secrets' being protected might actually be.
Beyond that however, these debates never amount to anything beyond 'my book is better than your book' and history has shown where that particular path leads. I have no desire to try and convince you of anything, either you will open your eyes or you will not: the choice is entirely yours.
Like it or not, much of Catholicism was stolen from pre-existing belief systems or adapted to include the beliefs of a group that was being subjugated. Many churches were deliberately built on pagan worship sites and Christian calendar events were adapted to fit long established Pagan rituals.
Go find the material yourself, but you will have to look beyond the pro-church literature to actually learn something.
Here's a starter for you...When was Christ ACTUALLY born? The current date is/was the time of the premier Pagan celebration. The only thing scholars can agree on about the actual birthdate of Christ was that it WASN'T December 25.
Another interesting fact is that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, mainly because Roman Maps (the best in the world at the time) clearly show that the town/city of Nazareth wasn't settled until well after Christ had died. This title is derived from Jesus THE NAZARENE, sadly the Nazarenian beliefs that influenced Jesus don't leave much room for institutionalized religion or the amassing of wealth and power to use controlling the masses.
Please understand that I am not attacking your (or anyone's) belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ; freedom of religion is a right of all sentient beings. However the Roman Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever followed even the most basic tenents of it's founder.
The RCC is nothing more than the first and original corporation.
Returning to The Hiram Key, the authors at the end of one chapter explain why at that point in their research they walked away from the project for more than five years: they couldn't justify their religious beliefs with the historical facts they were learning. It was only after realizing that thier belief system was an internal matter independant of any institution that they were able to continue their work.
If only more people could accept that same fact then our world would be much closer to the vision outlined in humanity's holy texts.
[edit on 27-4-2010 by [davinci]]
When we consider the New Testament, however, we find a completely different scenario. We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today! (taken from McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48; and Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57). Though we do not have any originals, with such a wealth of documentation at our disposal with which to compare, we can delineate quite closely what those originals contained.
Because the Bible is a book, it was initially made up of manuscripts. Consequently a primary means for ascertaining its credibility today are the number of copies from those manuscripts which are currently in one's possession. The more copies we have the better we can compare between them and thus know if the document we now read corresponds with the original. It is much like a witness to an event. If we have only one witness to the event, there is the possibility that the witness's agenda or even an exaggeration of the event has crept in and we would never know the full truth. But if we have many witnesses, the probability that they all got it wrong becomes minute.
How do we know that the Bible we have today is even close to the original? Haven't copiers down through the centuries inserted and deleted and embellished the documents so that the original message of the Bible has been obscured? These questions are frequently asked to discredit the sources of information from which the Christian faith has come to us.
Three Errors To Avoid
Do not assume inspiration or infallibility of the documents, with the intent of attempting to prove the inspiration or infallibility of the documents. Do not say the bible is inspired or infallible simply because it claims to be. This is circular reasoning.
When considering the original documents, forget about the present form of your Bible and regard them as the collection of ancient source documents that they are.
Do not start with modern "authorities" and then move to the documents to see if the authorities were right. Begin with the documents themselves.
Procedure for Testing a Document's Validity
The Greek Manuscript Evidence
There are more than 4,000 different ancient Greek manuscripts containing all or portions of the New Testament that have survived to our time. These are written on different materials.
Originally posted by Northwarden
Though we do not have any originals, with such a wealth of documentation at our disposal with which to compare, we can delineate quite closely what those originals contained.
The manuscript evidence for the "New Testament" is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. 4 Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years. 5
Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's Natural History (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' History (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' History (8 manuscripts; 1,350 years elapsed); Plato (7 manuscripts; 1,300 years); and Tacitus' Annals (20 manuscripts; 1,000 years). 6
Renowned Bible scholar F.F. Bruce declares:
There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.