Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
Being a Freemason Christian is an oxymoron. You can not be a follower of Christ while giving validity to Pagan gods and Occult practices.

Again you are wrong, but you are simply parroting what leaders of your cult tell you.

I have gotten my information from the book of a 33rd degree Freemason and other Masonic sources.

Then please quote some of these sources. Especially in regards to Star Trek Voyager and the zombie Obama.

I stated in the beginning of this thread that Satan sticks his own foot in his own mouth if you let him talk long enough.

From an allegorical viewpoint, I think you're right. And you're doing that glowingly.

I did not make up the statement that Freemasons believe in reincarnation. Albert Pike wrote that.

Albert Pike did not believe in reincarnation, nor did he write that Freemasons believe in it. That is another outright lie on your part.

I did not make up the fact that Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism was indeed a Master Mason as was his father. I did not create the links between the symbolism found in the Mormon Temple and Freemasonry. It is established fact.

We know that Smith was briefly a Master Mason, and that he plagiarized certain points of Masonic ceremony when he created his Endowment ritual. But you DID make up that Pike wrote that Masons believe in reincarnation.

I did not just dream up all of the stark contradictions between Christianity and Freemasonry that make them incompatible.

There are no contradictions between Christianity and Freemasonry. In fact, they both come from the exact same sources: the Ancient Mysteries of the Orient.



[edit on 4-5-2010 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
I have gotten my information from the book of a 33rd degree Freemason...

What is the name of this book, its author and when was it published?

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
Being a Freemason Christian is an oxymoron. You can not be a follower of Christ while giving validity to Pagan gods and Occult practices.

I disagree. I feel that I am living proof of that.

Paganism has influenced our society heavily. The Christmas Tree and Easter Bunny, and Easter Eggs are all Pagan Symbols.

In fact, December 25th is the birthday of Mithras, a Persian "god" who incarnated on earth and was persecuted and executed, was dead for three days and was resurrected... supposedly... hundreds of years before Jesus.

I have gotten my information from the book of a 33rd degree Freemason and other Masonic sources. I stated in the beginning of this thread that Satan sticks his own foot in his own mouth if you let him talk long enough.

I did not make up the statement that Freemasons believe in reincarnation. Albert Pike wrote that.

There is no 33rd degree book of Freemasonry. You are referring to "Morals and Dogma" which is the opinion of one man who does not speak for Freemasonry.

I did not make up the fact that Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism was indeed a Master Mason as was his father. I did not create the links between the symbolism found in the Mormon Temple and Freemasonry. It is established fact.

I did not just dream up all of the stark contradictions between Christianity and Freemasonry that make them incompatible.

You are clearly double minded and the Scripture teaches us all about a double minded person. I urge you to choose whom you will follow because you cannot be a lover of Christ and a lover of the world. To love the world is to love the god of this world, which is not Jehovah Elohim.

God bless.

Don't know anything about Joseph Smith except that a bunch of folks got mad and killed him in Nauvoo, Illinois.

I could write a PhD thesis about the mistranslation of the word "lucifer" by a monk, and how he damn near called Jesus and "lucifer" the same person.

While I may not agree with you, I do like this debate.

One thing I DO know however from both my interpretation of Freemasonry and my faith in Christ is that you have an immortal soul, you obviously have a passionate heart, and you will have a place reserved for you in Heaven after this life.

I don't claim Freemasonry is a panacaea for society's ills. I do know, though, that it has amplified my faith in the message of Christ.

I was sitting in church about a year ago listening to our pastor (I'm Methodist now after being raised Southern Baptist which almost ruined me.)

As he spoke about how to treat others that message mixed with the masonic ponderings I was having suddenly hit me in the face like a brick!

I don't claim that it was "enlightenment", but for a brief moment the world faded away and I saw the truth.

Jesus (and others) literally gave us the answer to all of our problems!

If you go back to the original gospel texts (and dare I say the heretical texts) and read the literal translations Jesus was saying "BELIEVE ME", not "BELIEVE IN ME".

He didn't want us worshiping Him. He didn't want us worshiping a cross.

He was telling us that we literally have an immortal soul. He was literally telling us that we needn't fear death or damnation. He was literally telling us that our sins were forgiven and God's grace extends to every member of the human family.

Then He said the most important thing of all... "Love one another."

All the words of all the prophets (in His words) hang on this great new commandment.

So, from my own personal perspective, all we have to do now is serve one another in love. All this other earthly bs (religion, politics, money) is just an illusion that will go away.

First of all...

Do Freemasons believe in reincarnation?

"The soul, with them, was not a mere conception or abstraction; but a reality including in itself life and thought ... It was material; but not brute, inert, inactive, lifeless, motionless, formless lightless matter. It was held to be active, reasoning, thinking; its natural home in the highest regions of the Universe, whence it descended to illuminate, give form ... and whither it unceasingly tends to reascend when and as soon as it can free itself from its connection with that matter. From that substance, the souls of men were formed, and by it alone, uniting with and organizing their bodies, men lived." ["Morals and Dogma", Albert Pike, page 398, teachings of the 24th Degree, Prince of the Tabernacle].

This teaching is a far cry from the Biblical revelation that God -- a Person, Self-Existent -- created the souls of man. Here, we have the Deity -- Universe -- somehow thinking and creating souls of men, and somehow causing them to be united with human bodies. Further, its description of what the soul of a man is, we get the sense that they believe the human soul to be a "Force", and God to be a "Force". [Pike is very clear in "Morals and Dogma" that their "God" is a Force -- pages 267, 531, 668, 705-7, 666-71]

This is taken from the writing of one of your own.

Secondly...

Jesus without any doubt taught that there is a literal Hell and that wicked people would go there. There is a very real lake of fire that in the final judgment many souls will find themselves condemned to.
I do not subscribe to same notion of Hell that many of my Christian brothers and sisters do but that is okay because we need not agree on everything. I do however very much believe that Hell is a real place.

You can not pick and choose what Scriptures to believe and what Scriptures you can throw out. I do believe in getting into the deep spiritual meaning of what the Word says and digging out the meat only mature folks can handle but you can not ever twist the basic message.

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. Folklore and myths and stories came before Him telling a similar story of the Gospel but this is because the lie came before the truth was revealed. God favors the second light bearer over the first light bearer. The true light over the light of darkness.

Freemasonry is the lie that says all religions lead to the same place. Well, in truth this statement is very true because relationship with Christ is not a religion at all.

You are very correct in saying that Pagan influences have marred Christianity and made it something that it is not supposed to be. It makes me sick to see Easter bunnies and Christmas trees glorified over the birth and resurrection of Christ. However, Jesus told us that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church!

Freemasons have done one heck of a job infiltrating and demonizing the church of Christ. The Catholic faith is all but Satanic in doctrine. Orthodox churches are not far behind and in the Protestant churches we have Masons like John Hagee preaching against Jesus being the Savior of the Jews and Billy Graham preaching against the gift of tongues.

The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Remember that my friend.

God bless.

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
First of all...

Do Freemasons believe in reincarnation?....This teaching is a far cry from the Biblical revelation

Even though you claim to have studied Pike's work, you seem to be trying to fool us. Pike says on that page "This was the doctrine of Pythagoras", not that it is the doctrine of Freemasons.

So Pike describes what the Pythagoreans taught and believed. Pike didn't say that he *himself* believed it, nor that Freemasons do. Once more, you are not being honest.

Pike says in his preface to the book you quoted:

The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations are not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite; but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to itself and the Deity. But as to these opinions themselves, we may say, in the words of the learned Canonist, Ludovicus Gomez: "Opiniones secundum varietatem temporum senescant et intermoriantur, aliæque diversæ vel prioribus contrariæ renascantur et deinde pubescant."

And by the way, John Hagee and Billy Graham are not Masons.





[edit on 5-5-2010 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. Folklore and myths and stories came before Him telling a similar story of the Gospel but this is because the lie came before the truth was revealed. God favors the second light bearer over the first light bearer. The true light over the light of darkness.

Oh my, we certainly do have a problem here. By your rationalization Jesus Christ is Lucifer. It says so in the Bible.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright MORNING STAR." (Rev. 22:16)

perhaps some of you other "logic" is flawed as well. God Bless brother.

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
First of all...

Do Freemasons believe in reincarnation?

Doubtless some do as part of their religion. Some may do despite their religion. Some do despite their religion.

The problem for you is that Masons aren't an homogenous group. I don't think the beliefs of our Senior Warden (Sikh) dovetail exactly with those of our Senior Steward (Latter Day Saints) dovetail exactly with those of our Senior Deacon (Catholic) dovetail exactly with those of a Past Master (Jew) dovetail exactly with mine (Anglican).

Yet for some twisted reason, we somehow work together for the general betterment of society and feel none the lesser for having done so.

Why do anti-Masons find this pulling-together so intimidating?

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
Jesus without any doubt taught that there is a literal Hell and that wicked people would go there.

Agreed. "My Father's house has many mansions". How do you interpret that passage from the New Testament?

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
There is a very real lake of fire that in the final judgment many souls will find themselves condemned to.

As an Anglican, I agree. But do you believe that simply not bowing in a particular manner is enough to consign one's eternal soul to said "lake of fire"?

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
Freemasonry is the lie that says all religions lead to the same place. Well, in truth this statement is very true because relationship with Christ is not a religion at all.

Huh?

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's not only a religion but the world's most forceful. Freemasonry's looking to find the paths that the world's great religions share and use them to help bring men of good will together to make life on this plane of existence less Hellish. Why is less Hell a bad thing in the eyes of anti-Masons?

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Remember that my friend.

Ah! But which church?

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
I am referring to "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike which I have studied and I have read some other Masonic writings as well.

It is painfully obvious by your chronic misrepresentation of Pike's work that you mostly likely have not even read Morals and Dogma let alone studied the book.

It is very interesting and very sad to have this conversation with you Freemasons. I do thank you for getting involved and sharing your points of view.

I have presented the evidence for the clear and present danger that Freemasonry presents to the entire world. Mystery Babylon is not a mystery any longer.

I fully expect God to allow me to take this message to a much broader audience because as the Word says all that is done in secret will be declared in public.

The time is now.

God bless.

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
It is very interesting and very sad to have this conversation with you Freemasons.

Right back atcha, Slick.

I have presented the evidence for the clear and present danger that Freemasonry presents to the entire world.

So are you going to concede the clear and present danger that your posts here have to persons not familiar with the subject? After all, it's been shown several times that claims you have made were false, yet you have not yet retracted them, or even admitted them.

As my dear old sainted grandpappy used to say, What the hell kind of carnival are you running here, anyway?

I fully expect God to allow me to take this message to a much broader audience

And this is really the sad part, the part which you do not seem to understand. God doesn't approve of your message because it is a false one. That is why it is so easily demonstated to be erroneous, and rebutted.




[edit on 6-5-2010 by Masonic Light]

I think freemasons use symbols to communicate, because they want to guide human evolution to the one god (yaweh) so all masons are like the jews of biblical times or something like that. I have learned not to peer too much into a persons beliefs but to judge them by their actions, and if you look at the freemasons actions it is all secrecy and hinting at another world after death, where we will become one with the galaxy or something (I am taking this straight from MASON StanlyKubricks films by the way. I think it pretty obvious the masons faked the space program for this very reason, to impart morals and their new age religion into the people (sheeple). I for one have no need for any faith and never have needed one, space based or spirit based.

Originally posted by Jghost
I think freemasons use symbols to communicate, because they want to guide human evolution to the one god (yaweh) so all masons are like the jews of biblical times or something like that.

Masons have no particular position on human evolution. The only thing Masonry guides its members to do is to do good works which benefit his community. A man's life on earth is short, and his memory will live on through his deeds and the impact he's made on other people's lives.

I have learned not to peer too much into a persons beliefs but to judge them by their actions, and if you look at the freemasons actions it is all secrecy and hinting at another world after death, where we will become one with the galaxy or something (I am taking this straight from MASON StanlyKubricks films by the way. I think it pretty obvious the masons faked the space program for this very reason, to impart morals and their new age religion into the people (sheeple). I for one have no need for any faith and never have needed one, space based or spirit based.

First, Kubrick wasn't a Mason. (And, for what it's worth, he wasn't killed by Masons either... The guy had a heart-attack at age 70. He wasn't disemboweled with his tongue torn out or anything silly like that...) Also, Kubrick didn't fake the moon landing. (Most of the reports I read of the moon landing being faked say it was filmed in Burbank. Kubrick was afraid of flying, and never really filmed too far from his home in England. No way he would have gone to California...)

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Also, Kubrick didn't fake the moon landing. (Most of the reports I read of the moon landing being faked say it was filmed in Burbank. Kubrick was afraid of flying, and never really filmed too far from his home in England. No way he would have gone to California...)

There is an interesting anecdote about him traveling to the premier of 2001: A Space Odyessy from New York to California by train while doing the final edit of the film.

For the last time... geez...

"Morals and Dogma" is NOT the authority on Freemasonry.

It's like saying "Left Behind" is the real book that all Christians worship, and quoting things out of context from them to debate fundies.

This whole "beating-a-dead-horse" schtick is so circular and fallacious that it's like arguing with someone about what the color Red looks like.

Or it's like me... a thousand miles inland.. trying to tell a shipbuilder that he's doing it wrong because I read a Newsweek article in 1977 about poor quality Brazilian steel that was used to make a railing for a stairwell at a hotel in Las Vegas that burned down.

It's like trying to tell Isaac Newton that it was a mango that fell on his head, not an apple...

Let me make a sweeping generalization that pretty much sums up all the arguments in this forum:

If you aren't a (noun) then you don't know Jack (epithet for feces) about being a (same noun).

If you aren't a Christian don't tell a Christian what he believes.

If you aren't a Muslim don't tell a Muslim that he will blow something up.

If you aren't a Freemason, please feel free to express your opinion, but please don't tell me what I believe.

Let's just get this party rolling...

Matthew, Chapter 5 is one of the most popular places people like to portray Jesus as condemning people to hell...

If you go back to Young's Literal Translation, though, wherein Young went back to the original manuscripts to try and LITERALLY translate the Scriptures into English (interestingly Hell and Lucifer do not appear in Young):

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

"Gehenna" was a place outside the city of Jerusalem where household garbage and the remains of slaughtered animals were taken.

It was literally a pit of fire that burned around the clock.

The problem with fundamentalist philosophy is that it is almost entirely based upon mistranslation and outright disinformation inserted into the Bible at the order of Popes, Kings and Emperors in order to conceal the truth from the masses.

What can be scarier to a naive human than being told his soul would burn in a pit of fire for eternity if he doesn't eat a piece of bread in a certain way, or tell all of his deepest darkest secrets to a corrupt priest sitting in a darkened phone booth.

All of the passages of the Bible that are thrown around by fundamentalists are contained either in the letters of Paul to the churches (which, in my opinion) are Paul's early attempts to circumvent the teachings of Jesus for his own cult.