Arizona HB 1070.How could you not support it?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Ok...I have a few questions for you, I asked these in another thread but didn't get answers from anyone.


Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns???


Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona???



[edit on 27-4-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

If you are a muslim, indian, jew, englishman and dont have proper state issued identification what do you have to show? You dont get social security cards if you're not an american citizen, so I would assume a visa or a passport? By what you are saying it's basically giving people the right to throw a hissy-fit when a cop asks for ID and Registration at a traffic stop. And when you say I don't have ID you're going to get mad when he asks why?

Why is this infringing on peoples rights when I go to foreign countries and I get pulled over and cant speak german they immediately ask for a passport. They do not say in broken-english sorry one minute we have to get our german-english speaking cop here to follow through with this violation.

America has really taken a turn for the worse and its people that are so passive that they dont even realize the country is being taken right from underneath your feet and you dont even care!

Some of you might as well just sign over your houses, cars and paychecks to illegal immigrants. EVERYONE seems to think the only immigrants in arizona are mexican, when in fact we have a large muslim population. Ever wonder why they arent smearing bean swastikas on the capitol building? Well gee, maybe its because they've obtained their stay in america LEGALLY and have nothing to sweat. Those that are fighting for this bill to be abolished are only fighting for your rights and lives to be taken away. And now is really turning to the time to pick a side and stop being on the fence, you are either for america and its freedom or you are against it. There's no wishy washy on issues like this, if you are in this country illegally you need to follow the proper procedures to stay and or work here PERIOD.

Do you realize why it's important to document immigration and stand against illegal immigration?
[edit on 28-4-2010 by hiwhatsup]

[edit on 28-4-2010 by hiwhatsup]

[edit on 28-4-2010 by hiwhatsup]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by projectvxn

 

Actually the point I\'m trying to make is that if a peace officer asks you for ID you hve to show it. If you\'re a citizen you have ID, if you\'re illegal you don\'t. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

No...it isn\'t cut and dry because that isn\'t a law.

What ID do I have to show that I am an American Citizen??? Let\'s say I\'m out on a walk...I\'m not driving so I don\'t legally need my drivers licenese. I am not legally required to have a state ID (even if I was in Nevada I wouldn\'t be required under the law to have an ID). I\'m not going to carry my SS card or my birth certificate around with me everywhere I go. So what do I show the police officer when he asks me for my papers???

Should I be detained for going on a walk? Should any American citizen?

My argument is simple...American citizens have never had to carry proof of citizenship...this law will now require a subset of American citizens in Arizona (hispanics) to now carry proof of citizenship or they may be detained and worst case scenario accidentally deported...all because they share the skin color of illegal immigrants.

I am NOT talking about the illegal immigrants...if a million illegal immigrants get stopped, asked for ID, can\'t provide it, get deported...all legal. But if ONE American citizen gets detained because of his skin color alone...then it is unconstitutional...plain and simple...cut and dry.

We don\'t live in a country who\'s claim is \"everyone is free and their rights are protected...unless you share your skin color with a group of people that have broken the law...then your rights will be sacraficed so we can pursue those that have broken the law\".

That is not what I want my country to become...and that is the direction this law is leading us.

Why do you think this is one giant conspiracy, the only people that will be required to show ID is those that have a reason to be pulled over (even walking). And even if you didnt have an ID they can always call in and check if you are legal. So again, why the big deal? Are they forcing you to a concentration camp and telling you to take \"showers\"?

And yes by the way you do have to carry identification it's just not enforced strictly, because there are ways around it. If I dont have my ID cops can still figure out who i am by name or social or a # given on a green card. And once more, I ask if you are here legally what do you have to worry about?

[edit on 28-4-2010 by hiwhatsup]

Very touchy subject matter! Take the hate and emotion out of the equation and apply some common sense. I've been pondering this law a while now and have come to a conclusion.

This law really IS a loss of liberty for American Citizens. Hispanics in Arizona will live in perpetual fear, legal AND illegal. I'm not being racist, just real. Most know that over half of the illegals in this country are Mexican. All you have to do is search for the statistics, pewhispanic.org has numbers. This law will cost Americans untold millions of taxpayer dollars in litigation alone.

I believe Americans are being manipulated to fulfill a Political Agenda.

Let's talk about "Reasonable Suspicion" or maybe "Probable Cause" even. Just about any law enforcement officer will tell you that there are so many obscure laws on the books of most cities and towns, that it's REAL easy to come up with a reason to stop and question you. Thousands of towns across the US have vagrancy laws and odd curfews etc, etc... I've been out taking a walk in a town I'd lived in for over 15 years and been stopped, ID'd and questioned for an extended period of time because I supposedly matched a description. My family (ancestors) have been legally in this country since the early 1700's!

This law would work in a fantasy world where there is no anger and hate. It will effectively drive ALL Hispanics from Arizona, legal and illegal. Have you ever had the momentary fear of "Oh SH**, I forgot my Driver License" while driving down the road. Imagine having that fear walking down a sidewalk in town.

I agree, YES illegal immigration IS a major problem here in America and something needs to be done. I don't think this law is it. And I wonder why more Americans haven't INSISTED that the administration DO SOMETHING about it before now. Sometimes I wonder why a majority of American population is knee jerk reactionary to long running issues. It isn't like this is something new, this has been an issue for a LONG time.

Seriously guys, everyone on here that is saying it's OK to have to carry papers proving your citizenship surely aren't the same ones that are crying conspiracy and loss of liberty because of the National ID plan.

The National ID WOULD provide citizenship information, a Driver License or State ID wouldn't. Just look what is required on an I-9 form for employment eligibility. Several states have started asking for Birth Certificates to renew Driver Licenses to comply.

I learned many years ago that with some people, you give them an inch & they take a mile. Is this where this whole thing is headed? You know, I have NO desire to have to be able to prove my citizenship at the drop of a hat. I have a tendancy to react firmly when I feel my rights are being infringed upon no matter who you are! That has led to some interesting situations!

I'm starting to think it's a diversion and maybe a bullet point for the Administration to drive home why the National ID is needed.

Don't let these wing-nut politicians twist your thinking. You really don't think they have our best interests at heart now do you?

Livng in a southern state (Texas) I have a little perspective on the issue. I see both sides of the argument as I have hispanic friends, and they have family they are trying to get over here(legally). It's a cluster**** of red tape, and interminable waiting. It's frustrating, and infuriating. I'm sure they have thought many times of just hopping the border. They don't because they want to truly be American, and participate in our society. They are all educated, and all speak english more properly than most of us do. We should make it easier for these kinds of people to immigrate. The problem is picking them out of the crowd of hundreds of thousands who just want to escape a corrupt system, basically refugees. The problem with just letting everyone in the pool willy nilly is that not everyone would then know the pool rules. Then we'd all be swimming in a yellow pool. These friends of mine understand this also, but it doesn't help the feelings of frustration. They are just as mad at the illegal immigration that makes it harder for people to legitimately join our society, and they support this law.

This is not a battle of ideals as much as a battle of pragmatics. If we pass idealistic laws based on a politically correct mindset of not offending anyone they will accomplish nothing. The problem itself may not be new, but it has been exacerbated recently by the world economic situation. It is coming to a head. I would rather be inconvenienced, maybe a bit annoyed, perterbed even to have to show some LEO my ID. I'm a bit of a rebel myself, and I understand the whole "Why should I have to show anyone, anything based on my racial profile." angle, really. Look at it pragmatically though. What if LEO #1 had to let Jose #1 walk without even a word so as not to offend his sensibilities because we have stripped our laws of any teeth, just in case we offend someone. Now, chances are Jose #1 is just a hard working American citizen like everybody else. Now... it is a remote chance that Jose #1 is here illegally AND has intentions to do anyone harm, but... yeah there's always a "but" what if Jose #1 drags Rancher #1 out of his house, and rapes, and slashes his wife, and daughters just for giggles a few days later? Sounds far fetched yet it is happening on a DAILY basis in Arizona, and the incidences could be abated by having stricter laws focused at the highest demographic of offender: illegal immigrants. So if an ID check that could be construed as racial profiling could save innocent American citizens from suffering a horrible fate. The benefit far outweighs the risk of offending some sensibilties. Not enough space or time to even talk about the financial implications, but just the benefit of securing our citizen's safety is more than enough.

I think Arizona should just start a counter-campaign, and release crime scene photos of what these animals do to OUR countrymen, and caption them with "A simple ID check could have prevented this." Get the emotional tear jerker angle working for them. It works for every other cause. This law is not ground breaking in anyway. It is simply an attempt to enforce the pool rules that should have been being followed all along for our protection. If you think it's such a bad idea spend a weekend in a border town, and witness 1st hand the type of people you are indirectly asking us to wave on through our borders so as not to hurt anybody's feelings. These guys already have RPGs they just don't wear turbins, and robes so they don't fit the MSM generated form of what you should be scared of, but they are actively attacking us RIGHT NOW!! While we play PC footsies with each other. Your attitudes will change when it eventually heads north if nothing is done right now. It isn't your @ss on the line so you can afford to be idealistic. It's a war here, life and death, so we really aren't super concerned if a stricter law to protect us offends you. Go Arizona!! Texas take notes.

Originally posted by TaxpayersUnleashed
Arizona HB 1070.How could you not support it?

A very simple answer. One would not support this bill either because they are here illegally or they have friends/family here illegally.

I never though about it, but this law would really help out unemployment problems here in Ohio and there is talk of bringing it here and I would like to see it.

The one problem with the bill is that is does border on policestate-ness. It could be a slippery slope. The immediate benefits would be there though but in the long run it could be a dangerous precedint.

Originally posted by OrganizedChaos
This law will cost Americans untold millions of taxpayer dollars in litigation alone.

Money well spent!
For once.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by grey580

 

All illegals live under the threat of deportation.

I'm not talking about illegals...I'm talking about American citizens.

If you are here legally and you have all the proper id and documentation.
You don't have anything to worry about.

Well that's the thing now isn't it. As American citizens we are not required to carry any identification or documentation. No state, that I know of, requires you to have a state ID...and you don't need a DL unless you want to drive. No one is legally required to keep a copy of their birth certificate in their possession.

I have given many scenarios in past threads...they are usually just ignored. I will just give you one here.

1) A hispanic from California that was born in the United States takes a vacation to Arizona to visit other hispanic (American Citizen) friends. This man doesn't drive so has no DL and never got a state ID because it isn't required. He was born in a hospital in New York city...but doesn't have a current copy of his birth certificate. While in Arizona he is in a car that is stopped for speeding...the police officer decides that a car full of hispanics is reasonable enough suspicion to ask them for all their "papers". They all give their Arizona state ids or DL...but this man has no identification. When asked his address he gives an address in California...police man becomes more suspicious...decides to detain him until this man can prove he is here legally...only problem is for him to do that he would have to go to New York to get a copy of his BC. So he is detained for days? weeks? months? Until immigration can work it out.

Tell me...what crime did this American Citizen commit???

[[this is reply to OutKast searcher ]]

OMG

listen up OUtKast for one If he was born in the states then that means he was raised in American Culture!!!!!! Lifestyle ! he would not have a Heavy Accent ! but he can still speak Spanish Fluently if he is 1st 2nd or 3rd generation American all he has to do is say where say his name or SSN or his Address originally lived and can Answer all the American questions

my god I have A Neighbor from New Jersey ! she was Born in the States Her parents are from Cuba and was raised Near a Italian Community ! and She sounds Total New Jersey well close to NYC ! and she can speak Spanish fluently ! and personally she reminds me of Fran Drescher if she was in Arizona ! they would defiantly NOT detain her
she Sounds and Acts to American !

OutKast Searcher are you a Legal Immigrant ? Chinese ? why beacuse of you Avatar what is your Race Origin ? I told you Mine ! before !
ohh that reminds me ! Native American means a Indian Indigenous person

Native American N & S
en.wikipedia.org...

as i seen that you had trouble of the Word Native American
did you think of Native means just born in America? I do not like saying
Indian its just to confusing for a Foreigner you might think im from India


edit to refer to OUtKAst Searcher

[edit on 28-4-2010 by Wolfenz]

Originally posted by hiwhatsup
Those that are fighting for this bill to be abolished are only fighting for your rights and lives to be taken away. And now is really turning to the time to pick a side and stop being on the fence, you are either for america and its freedom or you are against it.

[edit on 28-4-2010 by hiwhatsup]

I'm for America and its freedom and that is the exact reason why I am against this bill. You and others may have a different opinion about what ones responsibility is when asked for ID by an LEO, but to then insinuate that if others like me don't agree with your view on the matter are somehow "against" America is nothing but rhetoric and such arguments don't hold a lot of water. It makes people that make such arguments seem like they really don't have a logical argument to go on and only further invalidates your argument. I'm not saying you don't have a logical argument. You very well could, but you and some others aren't presenting it as of yet. The second you question my loyalty to America is the second you dumb down the debate.

Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm anti-America. It only means that we have different opinions about how far we are willing to go to feel more secure. Just because you have a certain opinion, doesn't make it so.

Edit: typo

[edit on 28-4-2010 by nunya13]

Originally posted by Wolfenz
for one If he was born in the states then that means he was raised in American Culture!!!!!! Lifestyle ! he would not have a Heavy Accent !

That's not true. MANY people are born here and speak mostly Spanish, but learn English from their parents who speak Spanish. Therefor they learn it with an accent. I live in New Mexico. I know plenty of people born here who speak English with a Spanish accent.

As others have stated, one would not need to carry id.

I have been pulled over several times without my wallet. Being in construction jumping in and out of equipment, running to the office blah blah blah, I usually do not carry it on me unless I need to do some banking or what not.

Even while in Gestapo California, with their checkpoints set up all over the damn place, they ask me my SS number and my DL number. Then they ask me my address, lo and behold they let me go.

Sounds like hysteria and propaganda to further an agenda to me.

OR, do you people want to have the federal gov patrolling our streets?

Huh? If you are so up on the statist mentality of control, maybe you should not live in a State and move to Washington or some other federal land where you do not have the same rights as the rest of us.

Where I come from, defense of ones self and ones country is a paramount ideal.

I guess the statist and One World Government proponents are pulled out into the open on this discussion.

Please people, be free to state that you are traitors for wanting the sovereignty of America to be gone.

At least Outkast had a little bit of balls to kind of admit it. He kind of wants open borders. In other words he is acting in a treasonous fashion. Be careful there people, stating that you believe that the sovereignty of America is old fashioned and should be given up, is seditious and can be considered to be traitorous.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Wolfenz
for one If he was born in the states then that means he was raised in American Culture!!!!!! Lifestyle ! he would not have a Heavy Accent !

That's not true. MANY people are born here and speak mostly Spanish, but learn English from their parents who speak Spanish. Therefor they learn it with an accent. I live in New Mexico. I know plenty of people born here who speak English with a Spanish accent.

true sort of ! i guess it depends on what the community you live around remember i said Heavy Accent ! Well first generation I will Agree on but 2nd or third etc... very little i would assume but like i said it depends on the Community especially boarder locations

Well it looks like the federal government has brought out it's proposal.

With a cursory view, two things come out on it.

Real Id and Amnesty.

For all of you Conspiracy Factualists out there that predicted this.

Way to go!

Here is the ATS thread on it-Reid Schumer Menendez Immigration Reform Bill (Draft)-Here it is (I would call it the Real Id and Amnesty bill, but that is just me-A CONSPIRACY FACTUALIST)

edit to fix link

[edit on 4/29/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


If this man was born in the United States he would have a social security number. Your whole financial life revolves around that number. Also, by law an individual is required to give that number on job applications. Carry your SS card with you and that can be confirmed by a radio in to dispatch. If I were of hispanic decent you can bet I would carry as much identification as possible. Knowing the current level of angst among American citizens on this subject I would over I.D. myself for protection. And, as stated if someone is aware and does not allow himself to be put in a suspious situation there shoud not be a problem.

Unfortunately the real problem the government has with Arizona boils down to money. Large corporations who hire illegal's give generous contributions to the politicians. If Arizona prevails the money will switch directions. It all boils down to money.

Nationally, 60% Favor Letting Local Police Stop and Verify Immigration Status

70% of Arizona Voters Favor New State Measure Cracking Down On Illegal Immigration

Not only do majority of the Citizens of the USA support this bill but a huge Majority of LEGAL Citizens & Residents support such enforcement. I myself am a LEGAL citizen and I support this bill & enforcement.

Get with the program or GET OUT of the USA.

This can be done effectively in so many ways that doesn’t infringe on one’s constitutional rights that stopping someone standing on the street or walking to their mail box is not needed, ever. I know many of you see that even having the possibilities to do so is enough reason to fight the bill, or see it as wrong, but there is not a single law on the books that cannot also be abused well beyond its purpose.

Everyone just sees this focused towards the worker, and we can see it play out more towards the employer where the root of the issue sits. So crack down on the employers and the jobs dry up, and when that happens the illegals will leave and are doing so as I write this. Will few jobs available and the risk to be IDed anytime they do try to work or use state services, hospitals, schools they will not want to stay.

reply to post by prionace glauca


Just because a majority of the population agrees with the bill does not mean others who are against it are required to conform to the same line of thinking. I'm still trying to understand this whole "your either for this bill or against America" mentality. Can you please help me understand?

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by prionace glauca

 

Just because a majority of the population agrees with the bill does not mean others who are against it are required to conform to the same line of thinking. I'm still trying to understand this whole "your either for this bill or against America" mentality. Can you please help me understand?

So you are telling me that since a minority of the population most of whom are illegal do not agree to the majority of the populace everything should be overturned?



Let me think of some of the countries where the above is practiced : IRAN, Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, N. Korea, ___________ Add any dictator country.



[edit on 29-4-2010 by prionace glauca]

reply to post by Xtrozero


I have always been of the mind that the biggest problem that contributes to illegal immigration is the willingness of employers to hire them over legals and the unwillingness for government and law enforcement to actively seek these employers out and punish them for their malfeasance.

I recently saw a documentary in which the largest slaughter farm was highlighted. It's located in a very low income town where many illegals live. The company actively seeks out these illegals to come work for them and the LEO's come in on a regular basis and just pick up a few of them to deport out of the US. The company is never held accountable and simply goes and picks up more illegals to replace the ones that were deported.

I firmly believe this is where the problem lies and where the problem can be eradicated.

Originally posted by prionace glauca

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by prionace glauca

 

Just because a majority of the population agrees with the bill does not mean others who are against it are required to conform to the same line of thinking. I'm still trying to understand this whole "your either for this bill or against America" mentality. Can you please help me understand?

So you are telling me that since a minority of the population most of whom are illegal do not agree to the majority of the populace everything should be overturned?

[edit on 29-4-2010 by prionace glauca]

Can you please tell me how you got that from what I said? I'm pretty sure I did not say or even imply such a thing.

edit to add: Your exact words were "get with the program or get out of the USA" after reminding us how the majority of the population supports this bill. I understood this to mean that if we don't agree with the bill then we should move out of the country.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by nunya13]