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KATYN 2. Polish opposition party demands international investigation into plane crash

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posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by trusername
 


i thought u was talking about the guard at the end of the movie thats just standing there? no? which one u talking about?




posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 01:29 PM
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What kind of outcome do you expect when the perpetrators of the crime are investigating themselves.....



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 02:00 PM
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Putting all those people on the same plane in the first place was moronic enough to be a conspiracy in itself. How could Poland's leaders be that dumb? Even if mother nature doesn't get that plane there's still mother Russia.

Poll jokes are cruel and unfounded, but this , this just leaves me astounded.

Now if it's another nine eleven then the Polish people are in for it; they will be used, abused, and lied to... while their rights are stripped away and their economy collapses.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 02:04 PM
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Lets see....

We have people at the scene of the crash BEFORE emergency personnel show up.

Sounds to me that the people on the scene had knowledge of an incident to be prepared for.


Location where plane would crash and weapons to take care of ANY survivors...

To hear someone yell " DON'T KILL ME " is bone chilling..... Followed by demonic laughing after the shot....




IMO there is nothing to investigate....

I feel for the people who survived the plane crashing, to have someone put a bullet in your head for surviving....

Is the person who filmed that footage still alive???

[edit on 27-4-2010 by Zaanny]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by dragonsmusic
 


Thats an easy one ... We only had one government plane . So there was no choice , either You wanted to fly to Katyn for the festivities or not ..



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by Zaanny
 


Thats also an easy one ... The festivities in Katyn are/were very important for people in our country and the fact that our President with companions will be flying in was very well known .. The people that were at the crash site (meaning at the airport and near it ) were polish/russian media , supporters of the Katyn murder truth , politicans and people that were supposed to greet out president .

So the fact that there were people at the crash site is not even in the slightest weird ..

People please get Your facts straight before you start commenting on something ..

I know this is a conspiracy site and I love a good conspiracy as much as the next guy but please do some research before you post



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 03:19 PM
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Any news on the blackbox? Has it been passed to the Polish or does it remain under Russian control?

Also has it even been opened up, im sure it would have recorded what was happening in the cockpit even if its just sound.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 03:50 PM
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Then why were those people not at the crash site....

Just the people to put the bullet in the heads of the survivors....

And some unlucky guy that will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 06:07 PM
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Alright, I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but you really have to have no common sense to think of it. If somebody was carrying a loaded gun on that plain (most likely somebody was), then a gun could have fired after heating up in the flames. Obviously it doesn't sound like a round laying around being cooked off, but if a round is cooked off in the chamber of a gun, that would result in a gunshot. Thus, it would sound just like a gunshot. Their security men weren't carrying ammunition in their pockets to throw at people... Even if the round wasn't chambered, a round exploding in a clip will result in an equally loud explosion, because the entire grip if the pistol would explode.

I'm not saying there can't be a conspiracy, but the scale is tipping way towards the side of accident. I just wish some of you could use your brains and actually "deny ignorance" instead of just getting hysterical about things. Yeah, you're sure it sounded like a gunshot? Well it probably was, just not from a living person.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by Calaustria
 


Good discussion here unrelated but on the subject of firearms cooking off in fires.

www.calguns.net...


Forgive me if this has been covered on Mythbusters before..

If you have a semi-automatic gun with a live cartridge in the chamber, and the gun is heated in a fire, what will be the ultimate outcome?


Heat triggers the primer, and gun fires with the full normal effect.
Powder reaches flash-point and ignites spontaneously, firing the gun.
Heat melts the lead-core bullet to where it is ineffective, before ignition.
Polymer frame melts, perhaps disabling the gun.


I would imagine that the rest of the cartridges in the magazine might light off first, probably destroying at least the grip.

In an all-metal gun, passive safeties don't seem like they would accomplish much if the cartridge effectively "fires itself". A revolver might light off the top round first as well.

Just thinking out loud here..

Anyone have any first-hand or confirmed tales of a cooked (loaded) gun?

Just to be clear, I'm talking about a round in the chamber, with the whole gun heated to extremes.


Logic dictates the round in the pipe if there in fact was one would fire normally. The question here is do Polish Security services carry one in the pipe. This would be the expected method of weapon readiness in my experience in Executive Security. Even this being the case we would have to accept that multiple firearms (3 I believe) would have cooked off their barrel round at very near the same time thus providing that signature sound of a firearm discharging a round - distinctly different than the sound of a round cooking off in a fire.

Personally I heard yelling and guns firing - I suspect Russian security forces were firing warning shots at the curious videographer. but that's just my guess.

[edit on 27-4-2010 by WWJFKD]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 08:01 PM
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I do recall seeing that mythbusters episode, but forget the needed temp to set off the rounds, details, etc.

Also, the whole wreckage site doesnt appear to be engulfed in flames, so im not sure about the odds of a gun being close/hot enough to 'cook off' its rounds, but im not discounting the theory.

Wouldnt the 'cooked' rounds have startled the supposed rescue crew to some extent/action/yelling?

Alot of people are seeing alot of things in this movie (some which i truly cant make out too well even slowed, zoomed and cleaned up


I think we need to take a step back and concentrate on the 'man' who appears to lift his arm about 1/2 way through the film.

If this is in fact a survivor of the flight, why was it not noted in the report, even if he lived only a short time after the crash.

That little tidbit alone should be reason enough for a further, rigorous investigation.


My heart goes out to those who lost their lives and to their families.

[edit on 27-4-2010 by L1Z4RD]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 08:49 PM
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Besides the whole rounds cooking off idea, think of what would happen if you walked into a plane crash near an airport in this country. Emergency crews would be telling you to get the hell away too.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 04:10 AM
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reply to post by WWJFKD
 


Great work getting this nonsense viral on ATS


And here we go with the sources again;

Kavkaz Central
Infamous hangout for fanatic, militant muslims mainly from the Caucasian region (you know; Chechneya, Dagestan, Abschazia...) where anti-Russian emotions often rise high.
I wouldn't surf that place too much; it's bound to make your IP end up on a "list" sooner or later.

Birdflu666
Just the URL subtracts all feeling of validity.
This is Mrs. Burgermeister's blog. A blog is not a source.
Besides, she seems to be pretty much alone running for this conspiracy so to take any info from her as "facts" is pretty lame.

To my knowledge, there have been at least 3 major threads on this very same subject and this one doesn't seem to be unique in any way either. Just the same baseless, wishful thinking without substance.
You yourself have been contributing in those other threads as well so you should know there is no valid room for yet another.

Waste of bandwidth.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by YehudasTheEnabler
Not sure if you guys have seen this -

link-news.bbc.co.uk...

Treat others how You wish to be treated~Jesus christ





Great to see a proper source for a change.

I highly recommend people to actually read a real article from a valid source for a change.

My conclusion:
Fog.
Stressed pilot.
Crappy plane.
Terrible accident.



[edit on 28-4-2010 by Raud]



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by Raud
 


I would add Budget Flying to that list.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 10:24 AM
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The President of Poland traveled on a Russian made Tu-154 with a disqualifying safety record (40 crashes since 1970). Polish journalists called it "the Flying Coffin;" American pilots labeled it "Careless." According to Ascend magazine, Tu-154 has suffered a fatal accident for every 431,200 flights, compared with Boeing 737s record of one fatal crash for each 2.68-million flights.

[...]

The mystery of the Polish Presidential jet crash additionally deepens the fact that it was equipped with TAWS, a safety device that warns pilots when they get too close to the ground.

[...]


Experts agree that it is likely, however, that the device did not contain topographical maps of the Smolensk airport area, probably due to the fact that it was a military airport which changed its status to a civilian facility only six months before the crash.

[...]

According to Greg Phillip's analysis of the crash, the pilot of the plane attempting to land in low visibility conditions could undertake a "look-see approach," which is basically an instrument approach up to the point when the pilot can continue to land using external visual references.

The look-see approach is considered by pilots to be a very risky maneuver and is generally banned by the FAA on all civilian airports in the US for commercial operators.

[...]

Experts agree that it is a difficult maneuver, which often ends with a crash.

[...]

"It seems to me that the key to determining the causes of the Polish Air Force One crash will be establishing if the pilot who made the decision to take a look-see approach had the authorization for the risky landing maneuver," says Greg Phillips. He added: "This authorization pertains not only to the pilot himself or a person in charge of the presidential plane but also the airport authority who has jurisdiction over the airport in Smolensk which under existing weather conditions should be closed."



Proper source (Huffington Post)

(Thank you Hellmutt for hooking me up!)



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by Raud

My conclusion:
Fog.
Stressed pilot.
Crappy plane.
Terrible accident.


Sadly, I am afraid the Polish people will not accept "Rand the Internet Poster" as a legitimate researcher.

Perhaps they actually want a real investigation by real people in real life. That are not Russians....



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Zaanny
 


A few things to take into account about the base at Smolensk. It was a small, disused military air base that is run down, and crumbling, as is a lot of Russian military infrastructure. Also, security is not as tight as it here in the US. There are not as many fences, guards, security measures at these bases, especially at a rundown decommissioned airbase.

Second there was plenty of fog at the air base. A plane crashing would still be hard to find, especially if people on base did not see it initially. Those that did see it were people in the immediate vicinity who saw the plane thunder over them and crash. They just followed the crash site.

Russian soldiers are trained and can fire warning shots, as they had to SECURE a diplomatic transport. In every major country there is always a directive for the military to secure a crash site when it is a diplomatic or presidential aircraft. Why secure it? To keep people away from the site. That is why they were firing warning shots to scare off the farm boys and gawkers that were hanging around. Here in the US, I believe we too have security procedures which are put into effect if say, Air Force One crashed, or a diplomatic flight suffered an emergency and crashed, where the military must secure the crash site, including using deadly force if needed. Why? Its a matter of national security and also securing important deligates, diplomats, etc. And it was on a military base, (technically). They have to save the head of state or VIP. Including foregin nationals. If a Russian plane with the Russian PM crashed in Poland, I'm sure the Polish military will be called on to secure the site. If there are any people with some background in the military or security forces can confirm this it would be most helpful.

[edit on 4/28/2010 by GenRadek]



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by WWJFKD
 


In response to the OP's name- what would jfk do?
screw some broads and receive some meth injections.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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I think the arguing over the cook off of rounds is idiotic. If there were rounds, there would have been more "pops" than there were. AND they would have been sequencially faster. The shots were obviously planned and with all the video footage, and yes you can see what is going on, there is no reason to "believe" otherwise.

WHERE oh where are ALL the alleged people that were on board. I had heard there where very few bodies there, like only three. I would suspect that the orignal passengers were taken away BEFORE boarding. IF, this is if, the plan was to crash the plane, it would have been far more difficult to "finish off" that many people and especially if some of them were armed.

Common sense would dictate that the plane was basically empty and the pilot a patsy, just like Oswald in the JFK issue. Get rid of the witneeses or survivors. This is all classic CIA/KGB stuff.

I am of the opinion that this was a set-up and that the Pres and all the other people are long gone. Dead elsewhere, before the plane crashed.

Just my 2 cents.



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