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All Roads Lead to Rome

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posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 



Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Really all these places that were conquered by Rome?

You mean Rome has exported ellements of the things it conquered and incorporated into it, and used them to its own profit, control and glory just like the Original Post claims and I have restated countless times in the thread since.

Wow that's a real eye opener.

Why not try adding something positive and constructive to the thread, instead of going over the same thing again and again, which like every other time it was presented proves absolutely nothing in any way shape or form that the conspiracy is not a valid one?

Thanks.


You completely missed the point and the idea behind the post... wow, almost laughable. What would positive be? I've contributed enough posts in this thread which 'positively' contributed to this theory. Disagreeing with you does not make a contribution a negative one.

I suggest you re-read that last post. There is a clear difference between progressive influence and intentional exports.




posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by serbsta
 


You are being patently disingenuous now, and desperately and shamefully so, the opening post is not predicated on any one source. I have a source inside the ruling Roman Cabal, and a fraction of the information in the post comes from that source. In fact a rather minute faction and no where is it claimed by me that the theory is based on that source’s information, and solely that source’s information.

The truth is you have been at this for months and have yet to uncover any thing that suggests Rome is still not ruling the world and driving world events.

Which is why you now out of some strange sense of desperation have to try to hinge your entire debunking argument on the fact that one of my sources is an anonymous source, the proof is all around you, and you are free to ignore it at your own peril, what you will need to do if you want me to ignore it is come up with something conclusive to suggest that there is no peril emanating from Rome and my friend, you sure have not done that.

So I would spend a little less time worrying about my highly prized sources of information, highly prized by me, because I like being well informed, and spending a little more time on some real sources of your information that could convince me you are better informed, and it really is that simple.

If you want to convince me I am incorrect you need real information and real facts to convince me I am incorrect and I do mean about who is in control and driving world events right now, right this second.

Thanks.


[edit on 25/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 



Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by serbsta
 

Which is why you now out of some strange sense of desperation have to try to hinge your entire debunking argument on the fact that one of my sources is an anonymous source...


I do nothing on this forum out of desperation, you fail at character judgment, I recommend you stop doing it.

Sorry, not 'one of your sources', your ONLY source. Let's not kid ourselves here, you have this source who supposedly is in the in-circle of the worlds ruling powers and has revealed to you how Rome rules the world...

'The evidence is all around you'... indeed it is. The evidence of Roman INFLUENCE is everywhere, the evidence of Greek INFLUENCE is everywhere, the evidence of Chinese INFLUENCE is everywhere. I think this is the key you are missing. You seem to think humanity just restarts from one age on to the next. We take what has been learnt, we utilize and we adapt, its only nature.



[edit on 25/6/2010 by serbsta]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by serbsta
 


Once again all places conquered by Rome, all places controlled by corporate Rome.

So I do believe it is you failing to see, and to do real quality research as to how and why these influences are really being employed and to what ultimate end.

As far as your other comments regarding one of my many and varied sources, it just sits in with the deeply entrenched pattern of denial all your arguments seem to be hinged on, where you ‘feel’ that someone isn’t being honest or forthcoming with you, because after all you have been raised and indoctrinated into a Roman world where you are taught to distrust all “non-official” sources of information and to deny them out of hand.

Obviously where you are failing to connect here is you seem to imagine that all the evidence is simple circumstantial and anecdotal, but the truth is that time and time again, it all traced directly into and out of, and back into and back out of, and into and out of, and back into and out of Rome.

In fact there is so much circumstantial evidence to pursue and run down, it’s almost hard to decide well which of the dozens of obvious things that is all around me do I begin to earnestly research.

The control logistical elements of the world wide society are Roman and controlled by Rome.

There is in fact so much circumstantial evidence, that it becomes easier for someone too lazy or too afraid to research it to deny it as just a lot of coincidences without ever attempting to complete the thought of why so many coincidences really exist, beyond just a blanket assumption answer.

Once again I invite you to bring some strong facts to the table, prove to me Rome does not control the world wide banking system, by illustrating who all has an ownership stake and none of those owners are tied to Rome!

That’s something you won’t be able to do through Google, but the information is out there all the same for people who know how to look for it.

Do you?

Or would you just rather waste my time with these petty rants and dismissals of something you have yet to get out and do any serious real world research on.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 11:28 AM
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This is a very revealing article. I'm not too sure about the source. The Trumpet? The author of the article does a very good job at laying out the reasons for such a visit by the leader of the Roman Catholic Church to a mostly Islamic region. Thought I'd interject this little bit of journalism.


Pope Benedict Visits Cyprus



This Islamist bloc, as a first step toward furthering Islam’s vision of a worldwide Islamic kingdom, is planning to take Jerusalem into the Islamic fold. At the same time, Iranian-led Islamism threatens to ratchet up its pressure against the West in pursuit of dominance of the whole Middle East and Persian Gulf region as initial steps to ultimately vanquish the Western nations of Europe and North America. Yet this vision is set to soon clash, militarily, with another universalist religio/political vision that has similar, yet opposing goals—the vision of certain elites in Rome and Berlin for a revival of the old Holy Roman Empire. European elites are gearing for the projection of EU power into the Middle East and Persian Gulf so as to immobilize Iranian-led resistance to this vision and take possession of vital Gulf oil resources. As an EU member nation, Cyprus offers a key forward geostrategic military base and virtual island aircraft carrier for these coming missions.


www.thetrumpet.com...



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by jackflap
 


Not only did the Pope visit Cyprus right at the same time of the ill fated aide mission headed for Israel what is even more interesting is the piece that CNN did yestereday on what is dubbed the Train of Death that is a cargo train that heads from Southern Mexico up to the U.S. Border that many Central American illegal immigrants heading to the United States hitch a ride on by stowing away on the top of it.

What makes it interesting is all along the route that carries these illegal aliens up to and into the United States are way stations and free pensions (over night hostiles) run by the Catholic Church and Priests who feed and shelter these immigrants over night all along the thousand mile route the train takes.

So answer me this skeptics why is the Roman Catholic Church feeding and housing illegal immigrants to help them get into the United States illegally against the laws of the United States.

Doesn't sound to me like they have very much respect for the nations laws, and it would certainly seem to me because of it's own history Rome knows better than any other nation how a ground swell of illegal immigrants can collapse the infrastructure of a state they have flooded into by placing excessive demands on it through their sheer presence.

Then once again when you consider that the United State's well armed citizenry is about the only real thing standing in the way of a one world government, a one would government run by Rome, it begins to suddenly make a lot of sense why the Roman Catholic Church factors in so heavily into making sure as many illegal immigrants make it to the United States as possible.

People who want to dismiss this conspiracy out of hand are simply doing so for the sake of some personal convienence the evidence is abundant and all around us.

Thanks for posting my friend.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


I do not need to do any of that. I already told you the crux of yout conspiracy falls apart with the false statements you made the prompted me to ask my questions.

Prove to me those statements of yours are true, then I will continue to investigate your conspiracy in that light. Until this impasse can be breached, the rest of your conspiracy no matter how many facts it presents, is meaningless.

Besides, the burden of proof is on you. You are the one making the claims.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 11:51 PM
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Very interesting...the famous P2P free file sharing software "Shareaza" which is notorious for its use of a combination of three other most popular P2P file sharing programs (Gnutella, Emule & Bitorrent) also leads back to Rome's based servers...not Silicone Valley, MIT, nor Brussels!



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 





Prove to me those statements of yours are true, then I will continue to investigate your conspiracy in that light. Until this impasse can be breached, the rest of your conspiracy no matter how many facts it presents, is meaningless.


Once again it’s absurd to make such bold and foolish and genuinely slanderous statements without reading the thread.

More importantly it is not ‘my’ conspiracy. I am not the one orchestrating it or running it.

So in fact all you are doing is displaying the typical kind of competitive divide and conquer thinking that makes every thing a ‘you versus someone else’ type of game, where championing one side of a coin or another even takes on mental ownership properties.

This is talked about a good bit as one of Rome’s chief strategies in the thread you have not read, that you now imagine you can successfully troll to confront and challenge people in a gladiatorial type way.

So in fact you are in essence proving the very nature and heart of the conspiracy, unwittingly of course since you haven’t taken the time to read the thread or to research the conspiracy, but are simply utilizing your indoctrinated programming to turn everything into a two sided game and childish competition, where you imagine challenging others will have the same self help and educational effect as challenging yourself.

Further if you had read the thread not only have you failed to ask a unique question or one that has not been answered in exhaustive detail but you would also realize that it matters not one hair to me, whether any one individual chooses to take the time to diligently investigate this conspiracy further.

Hint: A lot of people have, and that is why so many people have participated positively in the thread.

The fact that you are this late to this dance and taking such a transparent approach speaks volumes.

Read the thread, and if you really have real questions, ask them then.

Thanks!


[edit on 26/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 07:11 AM
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And for the last time.. I did read the thread.. the whole thread. i do not agree with it.

What is it with you? You have some kinda power trip where you must always be right?

I think your trying to cover up because you cannot answer my questions and you know it.



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


Here let’s borrow a page from the Skeptics Handbook; prove to me you read the thread! The burden of proof is on you to prove you read the thread!!!!

Provide a source to me that you read the thread.

All of that nonsense aside, in reality no, you haven’t read the thread, and you don’t even know much about the subject matter because you have dodged questions related to how much you know.

Now let me help you out further as I suspect a serious lack of real scholarly methodology is in play here regarding your activity on the thread.

If you want to know more about brain surgery you have to have a basic working of anatomy and the brain’s composition (Latin too since most medical terms have Latin in them and All Roads Lead to Rome) otherwise you lack the rudimentary knowledge for the advanced knowledge to make any sense to you.

Now lets compare shall we, I wrote a 35 page word processor long opening piece, and added follow ups throughout the thread to various questions and provided more information on differing aspects.

According to the staff, my posts alone to this thread will fill 40 ATS Pages!

So not only is that a lot of information, it’s a lot for the challenged to have to absorb. I grant you it is a lot of reading.

So it's impossible for me to dodge questions that I have actually answered at least a dozen times before and posted to this very thread you obviously have not read.

Now, I know you didn’t read the thread because the two questions you have asked in your short skimpy challenging and confrontational posts have been asked and answered lots of times before.

More importantly you are unable to answer some basic subject matter questions to display you actually know some of the rudiments of what the thread really deals with.

When you add those two up, what you have is someone who has not read the thread, is not familiar with the key aspects of the conspiracy and really need not be talking about brain surgery as they don’t even have a working knowledge of the human anatomy or brain yet, or in this particular case the thread.

Take the time to read the thread, take the time to familiarize yourself with the subject matter PROVE to me you have a genuine interest in learning about these things, because…

I guarantee you if you imagine yourself some kind of debunker, if you had actually read the thread, everything almost anyone has had to say to attempt to debunk, dismiss or discredit this thread, actually just ends up proving more elements of the conspiracy.

In fact I think one of your two asked 1,000 times questions was how do you know Josephus presented a false picture of those times as the only Historian who’s writings have survived that time of the fall of Jerusalem and the only writer who was in fact a Roman Citizen.

Your question answers itself. Why would have only one writer’s version been promoted by Rome all these centuries?

Why was every other account buried and suppressed and made to be lost to time.

Very simple, it’s called a cover up, an official story, where one account and one account only is promoted and made into reality.

The lack of conflicting accounts is telling, because in reality no two people witness similar events alike because no two people have the same perspective and exact same level of understanding and analysis.

That’s simple human nature, and normally in most major events, there are going to be conflicting accounts, and conflicting accounts published, not in this case.

So if you were focused more on actually understanding human nature, which is what Rome is so good at, so it can employ that knowledge into controlling the masses, and actually thought your own question through you would understand you are not only capable of answering your own question but basically did in how you asked it.

Now here is another thing you don’t get. This is not a singular event conspiracy but one that spans centuries and the entire globe. The singular event skeptics strategy of trying to focus in on one element to disprove hoping then to suggest everything else is also false simply does not and will not work.

So not only are you not prepared to even discuss the rudiments of the subject matter, you have no actual genuine interest in mastering the subject matter or learning more about it.

This I guarantee you, READ THE THREAD and you will learn at least one thing, if not many more, you will be genuinely glad you did, if you are in fact a person who has any real passion for knowledge and understanding.

Senior citizens with PHD’s have taken away new knowledge from this thread.

The only burden on me, is to put what I know out there, and to share it.

The burden is on you as to whether you want to learn more or dismiss it out of hand.

The burden is especially on you, if you want to convince me to adopt a different perspective and world view, it’s not on me to convince someone who is inclined to reject my perspective and world view, and amassed collected knowledge that it is appropriate for me to think and act in those ways.

So when you get serious, and take the time to read the thread, and stop approaching this like its some sport between you and I, well then, like I said if you have some intelligent and real questions you want to ask then go ahead please and ask them.

Thanks.



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 06:34 AM
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Protoplasmic Traveler,
I did not have the internet when I first became interested in the topics in your post. I had to do it the hard way via books, back in the mid 80's, and other sources. I had a fairly good understanding and agree with what you have written. I never expected to find all of these theories in one post and congradulate you for all of your post. I never expected to find everything in one post and this may be the first time that all of this information is available in one thread. Thank you! I have forward it to a few friends that are open minded and hope that they will not skim over what you have so thoughtfully written. You post is so well written and, if people can have an open mind, may change our collective consiousness as to what has really happened. The only solution is for the world to understand that we have been played by TPTB and cease this stupidity of division and conquer. I commend you for the best article I have ever read on ATS. Pleace brother and please don't stop now. Star and Flag for one of the best posts ever.



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by Monteriano
 


Thanks my friend. I too started researching and learning pre-Internet back in the early 1970’s. So I know how much more that entails. I commend you, not a lot of people have the passion and genuine desire to learn and understand to that point that they bury themselves for hours and days at a time in lengthy books.

As great as a learning and information tool as the internet is, like so many conveniences our dependency on it as a source of information is making real book reading a thing of the past, when it comes to some of these all important topics, which is a shame, because not everything that is in print, and is relevant and relative is online.

Which leads me to the topic of today’s post, technology and how it is used to not just create dependence through it, but to monitor and control us as well and how that has rapidly disassociated many of us, from former skills, that we no longer employ in many facets of life.

A little over a scant hundred years ago our ancestors had to rely on their own two hands and ingenuity to survive and for most if not all life’s basics. Self reliance that often led people to do everything from make their own cloth and clothes, grow and raise their own food, harvest, butcher, can and preserve it, to building their own houses and everything in between.

Today most of us would perish without Wal-Mart or Winn-Dixie and few people know where to look for knowledge or skills outside of pushing a button on the Internet or from a corporate training day or orientation session.

Yet ultimately all this technology is in the hands at the top, of the Powers that Be.

A few skeptics have derided me on this thread for having an anonymous source for some of my information. The truth is that the majority of the information they have provided me are the dates of scheduled implementation of various elements of the control grid, the technological control grid being built up around us.

The same technology that has made life such a convenience has become a truly double edged sword in that it can be used to control crowds, silence dissent and differing opinions, and even to kill in frightening remote controlled ways like we have never seen or imagined before until most recent times when things like Unmanned Drones have taken to the skies, and things like Sound Cannons are used to make people disperse when protesting the actions of the state.

Which brings me to the second important part of this post, as yet another bi-annual G-20 meeting is being held in Toronto this weekend.

Forget the Bilderbergers and the Council of Eight, Council of Foreign Relations and other non-government power groups a moment and consider the G-20 meetings.
Clearly the leaders and the bankers of the world’s leading and most influential nations are prepared to sit down, sit down regularly and discuss and implement things that are in their various governments’ best interests.

Notice how I do not say the people’s best interest, and here is why.

Once again like in the past few G-20’s we are seeing a whole sizable, normally thriving, and open to the public, down town area, of a major metropolitan city, completely closed off and made off limits to anyone who is not participating in the G-20 in an official capacity.

Ultimately we are told this dehumanizing and humiliating strategy is for the security of the World’s Leaders attending.

The truth is though this is a radical departure from times past, where the various leaders would have jumped for the photo opportunities and the chance to put on pomp and circumstance moments for the masses, so they can be seen and adored by the masses.

Ceremonies of State in fact used to be in large part about giving the masses a chance to glimpse their leaders in the flesh, to interact with them in a superficial way that brought the people closer to the leaders and enhanced their popularity amongst the masses.

Many will say that this can no longer be done for the threat of terrorism, etc. etc. and cite various security concerns, yet the truth is, the only reason such threat exists is because our leaders are no longer popular leaders for the most part, but rather autocratic dictators who constantly enact legislation, laws, and policies that do so adversely effect a growing number of people, who do see our Governments as reckless self serving enterprises that exist for their own profit and power, and serve themselves and not the people.

The people who have now become so numerous that the conventional wisdom amongst the ruling elites is that it is no longer safe to simply keep the people at arm’s length with a phalanx of watchful security to make sure no one gets to exuberant, but instead at miles and miles length with no mere phalanx of security, but a small sized army numbering in the thousands upon thousands armed with the latest array of technology, that is often then tested and used on protestors miles and miles away, engaged in peaceful dissent to leadership’s actions.

So we do see a growing and noticeable distain for the very people, who are the very source of support and power and wealth for our leaders, a growing distrust of them, as they question the policies that have brought the world to the brink of economic and ecological collapse, and a true willingness to use overwhelming force to create a secure ‘green zone’ for the elite when they amass, not in some war torn third world nation, but right here in our own first world so called ‘democratic’ cities.
The elites are clearly worried there are too many people now to easily manage, which means one of two possible very real things.

1. Increasing control through electronics and technology to monitor, regulate, and otherwise control people, to prevent them from carrying out their own will and pursuing their own freedoms.
2. The very real chance that once again major depopulation efforts will be carried out like in World War I or World War II or the Spanish Flu of 1918.

Students of History will know based on the past, that we are at a very precipitous moment in the course of our civilization. A civilization that has in fact changed very little and hardly at all from Roman times as almost everything employed as a control and governance mechanism within the classic Roman Empire is still employed today.

What real Students of History know are the outcomes of events that collapsed nations through seething tides of immigration, wars, economic collapse etc. etc.

They are less interested in the dogmas of who caused what to happen and why, than they are what really happened and what the result of that was.

They know regardless of politics or religion that when certain elements come together in critical and pivotal ways it leads to deadly upheavals that end up transforming the world and life as we know it.

We do stand at such a juncture of time, and we can see how technology is being used to monitor us more and more, control us more and more, even punish and kill us more and more. We can see several nations literally on the brink of war on the mainstream news media, yet at the same time see them cooperating behind the scenes to carry out their agendas not just in places like the G-20 but within the most powerful banks, and secret military installations throughout the world.

It was a tremendous amount of information to lay out in one place, and I dare say no, no one on ATS has ever laid this all out before in one thread in one place, and in large part the reason that I did, was because so many fellow members asked me too, and it is important that everyone consider that maybe the reason so much bad history keeps repeating itself over and over again, because we never have been told what really happened and why, so we can make the individual determination not to support it happening yet again.

It is happening yet again, the world is marching to war, we become more dependent and enslaved to technology, governments and corporations every day, and to those who think that there is little chance a real one world government could happen in our lifetime, well it’s clear through the G-20 and other events that our governments, even the ones ideologically and diametrically opposed are awful chummy and cooperative with one another come G-20 time!

Some people imagine this thread is really about arguing what has happened in the last couple thousand years of human history, but the reality is it’s a wake up call, of what is very likely and about to happen in the next couple decades, unless we wake up to the increasing authoritarian nature of the growing world wide police state and the electronic control grid they are rapidly implementing to secure their rule and power and control, during what might very well be the most tumultuous and darkest days the world has every seen.

Clearly as we look at the economy, the employment situation, the ecological environment and the rising tension between key nations in this conspiracy all is not well.

That does not mean all can not be well, if we grow up, and wizen up, and collectively come to terms with what has been happening and what is happening.

Which is why this thread is really so important.

Thanks for posting.



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


Here let’s borrow a page from the Skeptics Handbook; prove to me you read the thread! The burden of proof is on you to prove you read the thread!!!!

Provide a source to me that you read the thread.

All of that nonsense aside, in reality no, you haven’t read the thread, and you don’t even know much about the subject matter because you have dodged questions related to how much you know.

Now let me help you out further as I suspect a serious lack of real scholarly methodology is in play here regarding your activity on the thread.

If you want to know more about brain surgery you have to have a basic working of anatomy and the brain’s composition (Latin too since most medical terms have Latin in them and All Roads Lead to Rome) otherwise you lack the rudimentary knowledge for the advanced knowledge to make any sense to you.

Now lets compare shall we, I wrote a 35 page word processor long opening piece, and added follow ups throughout the thread to various questions and provided more information on differing aspects.

According to the staff, my posts alone to this thread will fill 40 ATS Pages!

So not only is that a lot of information, it’s a lot for the challenged to have to absorb. I grant you it is a lot of reading.

So it's impossible for me to dodge questions that I have actually answered at least a dozen times before and posted to this very thread you obviously have not read.

Now, I know you didn’t read the thread because the two questions you have asked in your short skimpy challenging and confrontational posts have been asked and answered lots of times before.

More importantly you are unable to answer some basic subject matter questions to display you actually know some of the rudiments of what the thread really deals with.

When you add those two up, what you have is someone who has not read the thread, is not familiar with the key aspects of the conspiracy and really need not be talking about brain surgery as they don’t even have a working knowledge of the human anatomy or brain yet, or in this particular case the thread.

Take the time to read the thread, take the time to familiarize yourself with the subject matter PROVE to me you have a genuine interest in learning about these things, because…

I guarantee you if you imagine yourself some kind of debunker, if you had actually read the thread, everything almost anyone has had to say to attempt to debunk, dismiss or discredit this thread, actually just ends up proving more elements of the conspiracy.

In fact I think one of your two asked 1,000 times questions was how do you know Josephus presented a false picture of those times as the only Historian who’s writings have survived that time of the fall of Jerusalem and the only writer who was in fact a Roman Citizen.

Your question answers itself. Why would have only one writer’s version been promoted by Rome all these centuries?

Why was every other account buried and suppressed and made to be lost to time.

Very simple, it’s called a cover up, an official story, where one account and one account only is promoted and made into reality.

The lack of conflicting accounts is telling, because in reality no two people witness similar events alike because no two people have the same perspective and exact same level of understanding and analysis.

That’s simple human nature, and normally in most major events, there are going to be conflicting accounts, and conflicting accounts published, not in this case.

So if you were focused more on actually understanding human nature, which is what Rome is so good at, so it can employ that knowledge into controlling the masses, and actually thought your own question through you would understand you are not only capable of answering your own question but basically did in how you asked it.

Now here is another thing you don’t get. This is not a singular event conspiracy but one that spans centuries and the entire globe. The singular event skeptics strategy of trying to focus in on one element to disprove hoping then to suggest everything else is also false simply does not and will not work.

So not only are you not prepared to even discuss the rudiments of the subject matter, you have no actual genuine interest in mastering the subject matter or learning more about it.

This I guarantee you, READ THE THREAD and you will learn at least one thing, if not many more, you will be genuinely glad you did, if you are in fact a person who has any real passion for knowledge and understanding.

Senior citizens with PHD’s have taken away new knowledge from this thread.

The only burden on me, is to put what I know out there, and to share it.

The burden is on you as to whether you want to learn more or dismiss it out of hand.

The burden is especially on you, if you want to convince me to adopt a different perspective and world view, it’s not on me to convince someone who is inclined to reject my perspective and world view, and amassed collected knowledge that it is appropriate for me to think and act in those ways.

So when you get serious, and take the time to read the thread, and stop approaching this like its some sport between you and I, well then, like I said if you have some intelligent and real questions you want to ask then go ahead please and ask them.

Thanks.


I just love how you fill your post up with lots of fluff to avoid answering my questions.

Using that divide and conquer tactic yourself now are ya?

You say, " In fact I think one of your two asked 1,000 times questions was how do you know Josephus presented a false picture of those times as the only Historian who’s writings have survived that time of the fall of Jerusalem and the only writer who was in fact a Roman Citizen.

[ No, I didn't ask about that. - That was not part of my question ]

Your question answers itself. Why would have only one writer’s version been promoted by Rome all these centuries? "

Prove it. I have read other historians accounts about Jesus's and his life and they do line up with what Christians says about Him. To say that we only have the account of Josephus is absurd..

Your right. I didn't read the whole thread 79 pages plus. I did not mean to say I had. I meant to say, - My questions were based on your original posts that should have contained all the info needed. Since they did not, I felt reading the rest of the thread was just a waste of time.


What about Tacitus?

Josephus may have been a Roman citizen, but he was also a Jew. " promoted by Rome" is the key here. You know Roman Christianity is not accepted as a true account of Christianity to anyone but the Catholics. They are a religious sect filled with pagan influence and that's provable historically.

This has nothing to do with what true Christians believe. The accounts are like night and day.

And besides. I didn't even ask about Josephus. ( misdirection on your part - or, you didn't understand my questions ) I don't give one iota what Josephus said, I do not base my Christian belief on it. I asked you to give sources for some of your claims. Here, I'll re-post:
~~~~~~~~~~

"I believe Rome's form of Christianity was a fabrication, but you seem to imply here they the "real Christians" from Britannia would not believe their Christ was a Hebrew and this was made up by Josephus. That these Christians had to be silenced because they could expose Romes plot.

What makes you think the real Christians from Britannia's "Christ" was not a Jew? You give no sources. You say they were druids, but they could have been converts to Christianity. If they didn't believe in Jesus as the Christ and him being Hebrew.. then just what did they believe.. Where did their Christ come from?

[ based on your statement:

Yet there was a problem, what to do about the real Christians? While they were relatively small in numbers in Rome, and influential as they were all slaves, and originally came from a remote part of Britannia it would do little good to have any who could actually deny that their God Christ was not from Jerusalem or attached in any way to the Hebrews. ]

[ If Josephus is your source for the above, why do you feel all Christians believe this as you seem to imply? - Where did you get the info about the Britiannia Christians- whom you claim were the only real Christians in Rome ??]

Please give sources on this.

You also say no Jews would be in Jerusalem because of the take over..And so no one would be around to prove or disprove the story of this "Christ" the Romans were inventing. But you do not give sources for this either.

[Based on:
With Jerusalem cleared out and devoid of the Jews there were in fact no Jews there to challenge the myth that soon would be Christ. ]

Where do you get this info? Do you think the Romans killed or captured all the Jews or made them all flee the city? "
~~~~~~~~

You are saying that the only real Christians in Rome came from Britiannia Not even the region Jesus was from - that they would not believe Jesus was a Hebrew, (If not, what did they believe according to your source?) - that there were no real Christians in Rome from the Mediterranean region.

You also claim Jerusalem was devoid of Jews after Rome marched on it.

I find all of these things very highly unlikely. Christians developed in many of the cities around the Mediterranean and they were commonly traveling to Rome and other places. If I cannot trust the truth in these things you claim, then why should i take the rest of your post at face value?




[edit on 27-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


Fascinating post JohnPheonix. I'm just not sure exactly what you are trying to figure out though. Are you challenging the theory that Jesus was a fabrication of Rome? Or are you challenging the theory that the Jesus was not Jewish? I really cannot tell what it is you are asking here.


I have read other historians accounts about Jesus's and his life and they do line up with what Christians says about Him. To say that we only have the account of Josephus is absurd..


You're right about that. We have a lot of accounts that all point to the same thing. There is still division though. Even though we have differing accounts that all point to the same creator we have life and death divisions. Divisions that endanger our very existence to this day. All emanating from the same source. This is by design.

Think of the three Abrahamic faiths for a moment. Not just the Christian religion. They all came from Abraham, correct? The Muslims, Christians and Jewish religions all have their beginnings in Abraham. All of them claim to be absolutely correct in their beliefs.

As much as you know about your religion or belief in God, there is a whole population who believe something entirely different and they believe it with all of their heart. There are groups of Jewish people who believe that Jesus was not the Messiah and that Israel being a nation right now is wrong. They believe this with all of their heart and pray for those who do not believe what they do.

There are groups of people who believe that those who do not align themselves with their own beliefs will be left here on earth to suffer while the true believers are whisked off to the heavens to watch the carnage. There are those that believe their Mahdi will be here soon to correct everyone's mistakes with a sword.

All of them seem to have a stake in the Temple Mount as well. All of them believing that it was given to them by God Himself. So that when all the religions are driven to the point of making their points very clear about who's religion is correct, they will all ahnialate themselves over God's little piece of real estate here on earth.

Does that sound like something God would want us all to do? I don't think so. It does though sound like a well formulated plan that has taken milenia to realize. It is working too. It is all culminating in some very Biblical blood bath that will forever change what this world sees as reality.

Will the 'true believers' be whisked away before it all comes to fruition? Will the real Mahdi come to earth and deal with the unbelievers? Will the Jews be correct and the real Jesus will return and lead everyone to peace? Maybe Batman will save the day? Tune in next time, same bat time, same bat channel...




posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


Fascinating post JohnPheonix. I'm just not sure exactly what you are trying to figure out though. Are you challenging the theory that Jesus was a fabrication of Rome? Or are you challenging the theory that the Jesus was not Jewish? I really cannot tell what it is you are asking here.


I am saying PT is making these claims and I am asking him for his sources. I edited my post, but perhaps you did not see the last bit because I was so long in editing.

Here is the last bit.. these are the things PT is claiming that I want sources for.

"You (ProtoplasmicTraveler) are saying that the only real Christians in Rome came from Britiannia Not even the region Jesus was from - that they would not believe Jesus was a Hebrew, (If not, what did they believe according to your source?) - that there were no real Christians in Rome from the Mediterranean region.

You also claim Jerusalem was devoid of Jews after Rome marched on it.


I find all of these things very highly unlikely. Christians developed in many of the cities around the Mediterranean and they were commonly traveling to Rome and other places. If I cannot trust the truth in these things you claim, then why should i take the rest of your post at face value?"
~~~~~~~~~~~

PT is also claiming the only testimony we have that Jesus the "Christ" was a Hebrew was from Josephus's writings and that it was all made up for the sake of Rome's plotting. I dispute this also.

To be clear on the above. I do not dispute Josephus made stuff up. PT and I are in agreement with this. But then PT acts like he believes Josephus's account on Jesus's lineage. If PT believed Josephus makes stuff up, then why does he believe this? I dispute that the only account we have that Jesus was a Hebrew was from Josephus.

PT says this in his post above: "Josephus presented a false picture of those times as the only Historian who’s writings have survived that time of the fall of Jerusalem"

This is exactly what PT posts in the order he posts it:

"
Josephus also known as Yosef Ben Matiyahu was a first-century Jewish Historian and Roman Citizen also known as Titus Flavius Josephus, the Titus commissioned to begin writing what are largely the only known non-biblical accounts of the Sack of Jerusalem, and the first real formulation of it’s religion to the Roman World at large.


en.wikipedia.org...

The seeds were slowly being planted for the world’s greatest conspiracy ever, a conspiracy still taking place today. A conspiracy perhaps destined to finally succeed after millennia in the making in our lifetime.

The religion that would give birth to Jesus Christ, a figure to metaphorically patterned off of Julius Caesar was being born through Josephus’s popular accounts.

In the process the Hebrew themselves were being written into a guaranteed position in the plan, one that would never stop paying dividends. One well worth the sacrifice by its leaders, of a capital that they had only come to occupy a scant few hundred years before after wandering the entire Middle East for profit.

Back in Baghdad a city that they had previously ruled, and kept close ties too, they would patiently wait for the next part of the plan to unfold, their investment in Rome, all the more secure for it.

With Jerusalem cleared out and devoid of the Jews there were in fact no Jews there to challenge the myth that soon would be Christ.

False Flag Number Two the Burning of Rome


Yet there was a problem, what to do about the real Christians? While they were relatively small in numbers in Rome, and influential as they were all slaves, and originally came from a remote part of Britannia it would do little good to have any who could actually deny that their God Christ was not from Jerusalem or attached in any way to the Hebrews.
~~~~~~~~~~~"

It seems to me PT is saying all this info is coming from Josephus.

You see, PT needs these things to be true because these events if true sets up the situation for later events in his original post. If these are untrue, how can he use this info as a basis for claiming other events?

His claim that "With Jerusalem cleared out and devoid of the Jews there were in fact no Jews there to challenge the myth that soon would be Christ"

And this challenge that Jesus was a Hebrew (made up by Josephus for Rome's plot) - that it couldn't be dis-proven because there were no Jews in Jerusalem, is just silly. The Jews would not be the ones to defend Jesus as the Hebrew Christ, it was mainly the gentiles and only a handful of Jews because the Jews rejected Him.

About Josephus:

"Josephus was born around 37 AD, and became a Pharisee. He then joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to them.

Josephus became the Roman emperor's adviser on Jewish affairs, and died in about 98 AD. 'Josephus' was his Jewish name, and he took the name 'Flavius' in honour of the family of his imperial sponsor. His 'Jewish War' was largely based on his first-hand experiences. It focuses on the period AD 66 to 73. 'Antiquities of the Jews' covers the whole of history up to AD 66. Out of twenty books, six cover the period from the reign of Herod the Great to AD 66 - i.e. the period when Jesus lived. "

www.facingthechallenge.org...

Josephus, was a Jew and a Pharisee first and foremost. Then he was captured and later embraced Rome. I would not trust one thing this guy says about Jesus or where the Christians in Rome came from. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ so of course in working with the Roman Government his accounts would be flavored with a slant that didn't offend the Jews or the Romans.




[edit on 27-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


I've been following this thread since I found it, and have only made a couple of posts, but really, I've got to say that Proto has been rather patient, not just with you, but with the many "christian" folk who have been irritated by his assertions against the popular Jesus, as we have been given to believe existed.

While I'm sure he will dutifully respond, you really should read some of the other pages, you're not the first christian who discovered Jesus being "attacked" by PT's paradigm.

Jackflap is probably right on with his advice, you should read it again, when he says "Does that sound like something God would want us all to do?" Can something like "common sense" ever get through to those who refer to "true" Christianity?

Reading between the lines, I'm guessing you are one of the many brands of "true" Christian, who is perhaps actually "protestant" (maybe Orthodox?), although today that term is largely rejected. Even that term fell into disgrace not so long ago, because it was a word that contained within, it's historical "baggage", namely, that the "mother" of "Protestantism" is also in fact, the Roman Catholic Church. Before this, Protestants were down-playing the history through the use of "inter" denominalism (1960's and '70's), which was then replaced by today's "non-denominational" christians, who continue to try and distance themselves from Rome, with little success really, when you explore the history behind where they came from.

And then, if you add to that the many Zionist influences on today's "non-denominational" (dare we say, "true" christian church), it's a wonder anyone can continue on, and then find reasons to defend it all.

I really think that you might do well to just take a big step back, and try and figure out where you are at, where YOU came from, why you believe the things you do, BEFORE trying to figure out why others have come to their conclusions. You would be doing yourself a great service. Truly, Proto has given sound advice when he takes the time to instruct you using his example of "brain surgery". You may not agree with this person, but his advice is good, go study anatomy for starters, then move up to terminology, and then, after you feel you have mastered some basics, come back, and see if things don't make a bit more sense.

And if none of that is appealing, then for crying out loud, go back to Jackflap's probably very wise approach. Use some common sense, and really ask if any kind of decent God wants these many various religious peoples to mutually annihilate each other. Such a thing may happen one day, because too many stubbornly insist on perpetuating ignorance, when they could have easily taken the higher road that was offered them.

But then again, you've already admitted that PT's many responses are not even worth reading, since you have read his initial manifesto, and disagree. This religion thing is a real blinder. Guess that's why TPTB have always found it so useful. Well, good luck anyway!

JR



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by JR MacBeth
reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


I've been following this thread since I found it, and have only made a couple of posts, but really, I've got to say that Proto has been rather patient, not just with you, but with the many "christian" folk who have been irritated by his assertions against the popular Jesus, as we have been given to believe existed.

While I'm sure he will dutifully respond, you really should read some of the other pages, you're not the first christian who discovered Jesus being "attacked" by PT's paradigm.

Jackflap is probably right on with his advice, you should read it again, when he says "Does that sound like something God would want us all to do?" Can something like "common sense" ever get through to those who refer to "true" Christianity?

Reading between the lines, I'm guessing you are one of the many brands of "true" Christian, who is perhaps actually "protestant" (maybe Orthodox?), although today that term is largely rejected. Even that term fell into disgrace not so long ago, because it was a word that contained within, it's historical "baggage", namely, that the "mother" of "Protestantism" is also in fact, the Roman Catholic Church. Before this, Protestants were down-playing the history through the use of "inter" denominalism (1960's and '70's), which was then replaced by today's "non-denominational" christians, who continue to try and distance themselves from Rome, with little success really, when you explore the history behind where they came from.

And then, if you add to that the many Zionist influences on today's "non-denominational" (dare we say, "true" christian church), it's a wonder anyone can continue on, and then find reasons to defend it all.

I really think that you might do well to just take a big step back, and try and figure out where you are at, where YOU came from, why you believe the things you do, BEFORE trying to figure out why others have come to their conclusions. You would be doing yourself a great service. Truly, Proto has given sound advice when he takes the time to instruct you using his example of "brain surgery". You may not agree with this person, but his advice is good, go study anatomy for starters, then move up to terminology, and then, after you feel you have mastered some basics, come back, and see if things don't make a bit more sense.

And if none of that is appealing, then for crying out loud, go back to Jackflap's probably very wise approach. Use some common sense, and really ask if any kind of decent God wants these many various religious peoples to mutually annihilate each other. Such a thing may happen one day, because too many stubbornly insist on perpetuating ignorance, when they could have easily taken the higher road that was offered them.

But then again, you've already admitted that PT's many responses are not even worth reading, since you have read his initial manifesto, and disagree. This religion thing is a real blinder. Guess that's why TPTB have always found it so useful. Well, good luck anyway!

JR





What is the deal with the PT worship around here?

Look... your post to me has nothing to do with anything at all.. you need to re-read my last 2 post to understand my position. I felt PT had some things a bit off.. i asked for sources.. he refused to give them, so I told where he went wrong.. that has nothing at all to do with anything you said in your post.

You say, " While I'm sure he will dutifully respond". I asked 3 times now to give me those sources, to tell me where he got those crazy ideas from and he so far still refuses to tell me. How many times do you suggest I ask?

Look at all the stars you got for jumping on me with a post that had nothing to do with my discussion.. Apparently none of those people understood my posts either. I truly get it now. You're all bonkers.



[edit on 28-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 





What is the deal with the PT worship around here?


So in your estimation people who do not agree with you, are only failing to agree with you, because of some blind worship to someone’s who’s perspectives, opinions, and knowledge differs from yours?

That’s a scientific and rational approach!


LoLook... your post to me has nothing to do with anything at all.. you need to re-read my last 2 post to understand my position. I felt PT had some things a bit off.. i asked for sources.. he refused to give them, so I told where he went wrong.. that has nothing at all to do with anything you said in your post.


Having read JR McBeth’s post and your last two I must say, yes what he said is relevant and much more concisely framed and organized too.

What JR McBeth was saying to you, is that they have actually followed along with the thread and read the whole thread.

While you on the other hand have stated you refuse to read the whole thread because you are at fundamental odds in regards to the opening post.

So while you willfully choose to remain ignorant of 77 pages of information exchanged between other members on the topic to pursue an agenda that’s been pursued numerous times by a handful of other posters over the past two months and 78 pages and want to contend this has some unique and special meaning, all JR McBeth is telling you is no, it’s not unique, and it’s been dealt with before which is all they are saying. Read the thread, because it really has been dealt with before.

So yes pointing out that the thread contains a lot of information you aren’t bothering yourself to diligently take the time to familiarize yourself with is very valid. Which is why, myself and others are suggesting you do just that.

You keep asking for sources, yet the reality is that the thread itself is the best source to answer the not unique questions you are asking that have been answered many times before.

So is it worship of PT that would cause someone to remind you, that it really is a good idea to read a thread, especially a lengthy and complex one, before posting, or is it just the frustration of people who have participated all along, and are diligently following the thread, simply frustrated that the same ground has to be rehashed again and again for people too lazy to read the thread?




You say, " While I'm sure he will dutifully respond". I asked 3 times now to give me those sources, to tell me where he got those crazy ideas from and he so far still refuses to tell me. How many times do you suggest I ask?


Chances are no matter how many times you ask it will be met with the same reasonable response of; read the thread!

The thread itself is full of countless sources of information. So why don’t you actually exhaust those instead of exhausting other members by asking for them to do for you, what you refuse to do for yourself.

That would be READ THE THREAD!




Look at all the stars you got for jumping on me with a post that had nothing to do with my discussion.. Apparently none of those people understood my posts either. I truly get it now. You're all bonkers.


So people who have read the thread, and as such, know that your refusal to read it, is meant to be confrontational and disruptive are all bonkers? People who do not agree with your lack of due diligence and poor methodology are crazy, and people who don’t agree with you, are only failing to do so because they worship someone with a different opinion?

Once again as stated before, READ THE THREAD, and as you do understand, that the vast majority of people who have read the thread, can see for themselves, too many troubling tie ins and connections to Rome not just throughout history, but today right now, in events that are driving the world and effecting the world. They don’t necessarily agree with every last assertion in the thread either, but that doesn’t prevent them from seeing the very real reality that Rome uses Banking, Religion, Law and Military Force to drive world events today.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I truly get it now. You're all bonkers.



I guess that includes myself, then?


On topic:

Certain recent RL concerns have kept me from posting more revelations out of Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (published in its entirety in 1776) which, imho, still plays a huge part in how America and indeed much of the western world is governed today, both in regards to politics and religion. I fully intend to come back to this thread in a large way to prove that point with future posts.

Question: was America founded on the principle of 'freedom of religion' or 'freedom from religion' and what is the difference between the two?



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