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All Roads Lead to Rome

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posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by Extant Taxon
But...if we are talking speculative then it can't be any older than the late 1600's, surely?


My friend,

You may wish to look at the Halliwell Manuscript A.K.A Regius Poem which gives an early look at Scottish Freemasonry as early as 1390 A.D., which itself is a copy of a Book of Constitutions from 926 A.D.

Here is a link about it:

Regius Poem info

I may have an electronic copy of a scanned original floating around somewhere. If you are interested in a copy for your own research purposes, I will be happy to oblige.

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 4-12-2010 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


Do you, by chance, now anything of the two separate Christian groups? The religious Christians and the people the Christians?



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


I think it's deeper than just for money..

Had the Knights been a "Normal" christian group, Pope Clemens would have just extended his hand and helped them, but the church was just as anxious to get rid of them as well.. Why? Because, they knew it was a sham..



Well, it was certainly more complex than just money, which is why I mentioned power, money, and a land grab.Also, throw in jealousy, insecurity (le Bel feared for his throne because of a perceived threat from the Templars), and the fact that Philip was an apopleptic, seething bas**rd, and there you go.


Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


Do you, by chance, now anything of the two separate Christian groups? The religious Christians and the people the Christians?


I think I read this somewhere before, maybe this thread. Can you tell me exactly what you mean here? Also, any links on this so I can read up quickly?


Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
But...if we are talking speculative then it can't be any older than the late 1600's, surely?


My friend,

You may wish to look at the Halliwell Manuscript A.K.A Regius Poem which gives an early look at Scottish Freemasonry as early as 1390 A.D., which itself is a copy of a Book of Constitutions from 926 A.D.

Here is a link about it:

Regius Poem info

I may have an electronic copy of a scanned original floating around somewhere. If you are interested in a copy for your own research purposes, I will be happy to oblige.

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 4-12-2010 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)


Am I interested in the scanned original? Heck yeah!

But I've read this manuscript online previously, quite some time ago so my memory isn't that fresh. Doesn't this deal with operative masonry, as opposed to speculative?
edit on 4/12/10 by Extant Taxon because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/12/10 by Extant Taxon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:11 PM
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the fact that Philip was an apopleptic, seething bas**rd, and there you go.
reply to post by Extant Taxon
 




True.. I'm just saying the Templars aren't what everybody (ESPECIALLY the people here on ATS) thinks they are..



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


I read about the pre-roman Christians in a book, before i saw it on here, but i cannot find anything online about it.. I'm looking but not finding anything..

They were like the Hippies.. flower children kind of religion and then it came to Rome and turned into a Strict power structure..

I'll do more searching and get back to you if i can find anything



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


I read about the pre-roman Christians in a book, before i saw it on here, but i cannot find anything online about it.. I'm looking but not finding anything..

They were like the Hippies.. flower children kind of religion and then it came to Rome and turned into a Strict power structure..

I'll do more searching and get back to you if i can find anything


The original "Jesus cult," you mean? The very Christians the Romans were throwing to the lions until they took it over and made it the official state religion? When you said "people" I thought you were maybe referring to some sort of nation or culture, perhaps.


Originally posted by squirelnutz



the fact that Philip was an apopleptic, seething bas**rd, and there you go.
reply to post by Extant Taxon
 




True.. I'm just saying the Templars aren't what everybody (ESPECIALLY the people here on ATS) thinks they are..


The Templars have fascinated so many for so long, with good reason. They are a lot of things to lots of people. just like the Cathars or the original Gnostics. Such an intriguing order, indeed.



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Am I interested in the scanned original? Heck yeah!

But I've read this manuscript online previously, quite some time ago so my memory isn't that fresh. Doesn't this deal with operative masonry, as opposed to speculative?
edit on 4/12/10 by Extant Taxon because: (no reason given)


I just checked an online library where the original wa up loaded and found the link dead. Granted, it was in 2008 when I last saw it. No worries though, I have asked the Brother in Scotland for a copy and should have it soon. I will pass it on to you when I get it.

As for the operative/speculative argument, I do not get involved in it enough to have an opinion. The principle difference is the Operative actually work stone, the speculative, well they just speculate. The forms and ceremonies are so similar it is all but impossible to be certain where one left off and the other began.

1717 is the formation of the United Grand Lodge in England, which is a strictly speculative body, but there is plenty of evidence which shows that this is not the beginning of it.

For those who do not know, Operative Mason guilds began initiating non-operative men into their ranks some where in their past. Over time, more men were speculative than operative, and with time, the operative mason was no longer found at all in the lodges. Who were the earliest speculative Masons?

They were NOT low born men.

With Love,

Your Brother

edit on 4-12-2010 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:30 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


O.K. Good answer, I wanted the info to come from an actual Freemason as regards the distinction, thanks.
The consideration as regards the manuscript is appreciated.



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


Yeah, i guess.. Maybe, i don't know what i'm talking about..
has been known to happen once...

The more you learn, the more questions you have.. Sometimes, it's annoying



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by squirelnutz
 


My favourite tactic, as the philosophers said, is not to pose questions, necessarily, but to question answers. Vigorously.

But, yeah, everyone likes to pretend they know what they're talking about, especially on ATS. Myself included. We're all just shooting the breeze here, sometimes with live ammunition though.

edit on 4/12/10 by Extant Taxon because: Typographic error.



posted on Dec, 4 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by Extant Taxon
 


I like that.. Kind of a half full kind of response



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by Alethea
 


Alethea,

from page 158 of this thread.


Issac and Ishmael had different mothers. But perhaps you are referencing the view of the Serpent Seed where Cain and Able are believed to have had different fathers. (?)

I used to think Abraham was just a psychotic deadbeat dad. It's not exactly normal to have a parent make you gather the sticks for your own altar burning and then tie you up and threaten to cut your throat. Was it really an act of "holy reverence" sacrifice to a god or a fit of rage and anger at the child? According to some commentaries, it is believed that Ishmael was the one that Abraham attempted to sacrifice and then changed his mind.

It's pretty cold to throw the mother of your first born and your child out into the wilderness. There must have been some reason. Scripture gives a subtle reference that something was wrong. Various translations and further commentaries allude to Ishmael having perhaps molested or tormented Issac. Because Ishmael was the older child and could exert influence and power over Issac, trouble was brewing due to some reason of Ishmael being a bad influence or an agitator.



No Alethea,

I am definitely referencing Ishmael and Issac..by their father Abraham. The story of Abraham and Issac and the sacrifice is one of Faith. Abraham showed himself to be Faithful to God and thus God spared his son and did not break Faith with Abraham.

Notice something about the story or narrative as it unfolds between the two women..Hagar the bondwoman and servant to Sarah..Abraham's wife.

There was some sort of girl stuff disagreement between these two women concerning the inheritance of the children within the family Abraham.

Sarah, who was concerned with bringing Abraham a son as promised by God when the time was appointed, decided to take matters into her hands ..to help God along. Her decision was to send in her bond maid Hagar to lie with Abraham and beget a son. By the law..if Abraham went in unto Hagar the son would be Abraham's son. But if Sarah made the decision to send in her bond maid/servant...the child was Sarah's. This is how the law was written. Abraham did not go into the bondwoman. Sarah sent her in unto Abraham such that she/Sarah could have a son..because she/Sarah was fast approaching if not past the age when women could bear children.

But the time came when both Abraham and Sarah were well past time for children. And God made it possible for them to conceive one more time..and the child was Issac. Issac was conceived when men in all their wisdom could do nothing. Issac was conceived by God's will and promise because of Abraham being a Faithful servant.

Abraham loved Ishmael...and did not want to put the child and his mother out. But God said ...Hearken unto your wife. It was Sarah who wanted the bondwoman and her son out. This was a dispute between two women Alethea.

This view is plain and clear in Genesis. There was some girl stuff going on between these two women. This also showed that Sarah was not a downtrodden browbeaten woman in Abraham's household..she had power and authority.

This story in Genesis is about Faith..through and through. Paul covers this again in his epistles in the New Testament. Not about human decisions and standards. This is the conflict in most people/peoples. Abraham showed himself to be faithful unto God..though I am certain it hurt him to put out the bondwoman and her son.

I am aware of the commentaries and don't agree with any of them in the end. What is important is what is in the Word.

Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999 The story of Abraham and Issac and the sacrifice is one of Faith. Abraham showed himself to be Faithful to God and thus God spared his son and did not break Faith with Abraham.


Tell that to a child scarred by gathering his own firewood knowing that his father is about to set him on fire and burn him on an altar.




By the law..if Abraham went in unto Hagar the son would be Abraham's son. But if Sarah made the decision to send in her bond maid/servant...the child was Sarah's. This is how the law was written.


A man-made law, no doubt. More laws to invite trouble and division among people. More laws to cause sibling rivalry and hurt feelings. Someone always has to "be lesser" than someone else. I suppose that is why every culture has a "class" system which is based on birth status.




But the time came when both Abraham and Sarah were well past time for children. And God made it possible for them to conceive one more time..and the child was Issac.


Pretty twisted 'reward' for 'faith'. Rather sadistic to wait till you're 100 years old and in no shape to chase a two year old! I don't think much of Abraham's god.



But God said ...Hearken unto your wife. It was Sarah who wanted the bondwoman and her son out. This was a dispute between two women Alethea.


Scriptures say that "god is no respecter of persons." To say that god chose sides and intervenes in personal arguments invalidates those scriptures, imo. According to Genesis MAN was given dominion over the earth--- not some "god(s)". That's not to say that man did not chose to believe that some angry god lived in the erupting volcanoes, or sent messages and visions through natural gas vapors seeping up through cracks in the region, or gave answers like an 8 Ball through the Urim and Thummim.

It really does not matter who the mother's were; in the Bible, lineage is established through the male.

Now, with your claim of "having a different father" in reference to the lineage of Issac and Ishmael, the only way this could be possible is if Issac had two fathers.



In early Greek and Roman history, a few philosophers claimed that although every child has one absolute mother, it did not follow that every child had one absolute father. They suggested that a child's genetic character could be influenced by the seed of two or more men if they had inseminated the same mother. This was considered a fringe theory even in its time, however, and was never widely accepted. Traces of such a theory appear to underline various myths of a hero (such as Heracles) with both a human and a divine father


Perhaps you are alluding to the possibility that Sarah was artificially inseminated? If so, then either we are opening the door to the possibility of ET influence/interference on this planet or these people were not as primitive as we would imagine. Well, the Vatican has said that "Aliens are our brothers".......

The Bible you read today is a product of Rome. The "Books of the Bible" may not even be in the right order! Look how long this God-spell (go'spel) has hypnotized people. And we all wait with baited breath for the next chapter when the ET's will be revealed! You have to admit that Rome is the Scheherazade of storytellers!







edit on 5-12-2010 by Alethea because: quotes typo



posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Alethea
 


Alethea,


Originally posted by orangetom1999 The story of Abraham and Issac and the sacrifice is one of Faith. Abraham showed himself to be Faithful to God and thus God spared his son and did not break Faith with Abraham.


Tell that to a child scarred by gathering his own firewood knowing that his father is about to set him on fire and burn him on an altar.


The line of God is through Issac and not Ishmael. Through this lineage was to come Jesus the Christ for remission of sins. Not the Human points or issues of which you are want to bring up.


By the law..if Abraham went in unto Hagar the son would be Abraham's son. But if Sarah made the decision to send in her bond maid/servant...the child was Sarah's. This is how the law was written.

A man-made law, no doubt. More laws to invite trouble and division among people. More laws to cause sibling rivalry and hurt feelings. Someone always has to "be lesser" than someone else. I suppose that is why every culture has a "class" system which is based on birth status.


Indeed ..quite correct here. But notice who was taking advantage of this man made law...Sarah..in an attempt to help God along. God was to show by the birth of Issac that He would do this in His own time and own manner when men could do nothing.
And correct again..in that it has invited division and trouble among people. I say this because the Ishmaelites today include the Arabs/Muslims and also the Hebrews/Jews under the Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. This is an understanding little known by Christians who are often misled by their own preachers/ministers. And I don't think it is accidental.

In some countries/nations it is indeed based on birth status. But in some other countries it is based on economic status..not birth status. Man made traditions.
However..notice that when King David was chosen...he himself stated that he was the least of his fathers house.
So this concept of birth status is not necessarily ironclad or everywhere fixed.
Joseph ..who was loved by his father Jacob/Israel...was not the oldest of his fathers house.


But the time came when both Abraham and Sarah were well past time for children. And God made it possible for them to conceive one more time..and the child was Issac.


Pretty twisted 'reward' for 'faith'. Rather sadistic to wait till you're 100 years old and in no shape to chase a two year old! I don't think much of Abraham's god.


I don't know that this was a reward for Faith on the part of Abraham but more a demonstration of God's Sovereignty and Grace/Mercy to Abraham and his house. That out of his line was to come the Messiah.
You will notice that the lineage of Jesus the Christ for remission of sins can be followed from Adam through to Abraham and his seed and into the New Testament ..unbroken.
Also notice one other thing...Abraham was pretty well off for a man of those times. In this regard Abraham was blessed of God with affluence. He could afford servants and Sarah was to have a bond maid. Abraham was to go on to live and marry once or twice more.


But God said ...Hearken unto your wife. It was Sarah who wanted the bondwoman and her son out. This was a dispute between two women Alethea.

Scriptures say that "god is no respecter of persons." To say that god chose sides and intervenes in personal arguments invalidates those scriptures, imo.


You are assuming here that God chose sides between these two women. The side that God chose was His side..that the lineage He was to choose was through the line of Issac and not Ishmael. This just happened to coincide with Sarah's position. Also remember..Ishmael by law was the child of Sarah..though Hagar was the biological mother. Remember Sarah sent Hagar in to 'Abraham and then when the child was older and she (Sarah) had a son of her own biology Sarah no longer wanted this first son to inherit.
The intent all along was for Abraham and Sarah to have a child, their own biological child to inherit the lineage.
It was Sarah who attempted to fudge the line and then reneged on it.
This just happened to coincide with what was God's intent and direction all along.
You are taking a womans manipulative attempt to have a child of her own by the law of the day and then holding a man and even God responsible for it. Interesting reaction.


It really does not matter who the mother's were; in the Bible, lineage is established through the male.


Correct...lineage is established through the male. And who was attempting to manipulate that lineage?? Abraham??? Remember..Abraham loved Ishmael and did not want to cast him out along with Haggar.

The word Issac means Laughter. For Sarah when told that at the time appointed she would have a son...laughed in the presence of God's messengers/angels. But the child's name was to be Issac. In Issac shall thy seed be called.


Now, with your claim of "having a different father" in reference to the lineage of Issac and Ishmael, the only way this could be possible is if Issac had two fathers.


Issac and Ishmael have the same biological father. It is the inheritance here which counts. Not human terms and conditions. Nor human guilt thinking/values.

I don't exactly recall where or what post I made any such claim but as best I can recall..I stated that I personally have a different Father than those who follow the world position/religion of Ishmael.
For the world position is one of making the children of the bondwoman heir with the children of the free woman. To turn us all into Ishmaelites.

All this talk about the President being a Muslim. I don't think so at all. I do think that this President has in his heart the world position of Ishmael. He is an Ishmaelite. He is not after Issac.

Hope this helps,
Thanks,
Orangetom












edit on 6-12-2010 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Proto has stated numerous times throughout these pages that this thread is NOT about religion. For that reason and on this basis, I shall leave you to your delusions. You are welcome to start another thread if you wish to continue on with this subject matter.




Originally posted by orangetom1999
.
All this talk about the President being a Muslim. I don't think so at all. I do think that this President has in his heart the world position of Ishmael. He is an Ishmaelite. He is not after Issac.



This statement is just out of left field. No one has said anything about that on this thread that I am aware of. It's rather arrogant of you to make such a judgment and purport that you can read a man's heart when all you know of him is what the media bias chooses to portray.



I am taking this rock out of my shoe and heading back to the dusty trail that leads to Rome.



www.youtube.com...
edit on 6-12-2010 by Alethea because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by Alethea
 


Alethea,



Proto has stated numerous times throughout these pages that this thread is NOT about religion. For that reason and on this basis, I shall leave you to your delusions.

I am taking this rock out of my shoe and heading back to the dusty trail that leads to Rome.


Quite right Alethea and thank you for reminding me about Rome and helping to keep on track. I will clarify for you my understanding about Rome.
Rome is just an Roman Catholic version of the Ishmaelite religion. While couching their activities for almost two thousand years under the guise and appearance of Christianity they have actually been practicing a religion of World power and politic. The very opposite of the Christian Principles of which they advertise. Which also happen to parallel how the body politic works. Concealed, Hidden. They shall ever conceal and never reveal.
This is also how much of Islam works...the religion of peace. Very politic.
When you peel back all the outside veneer..you will find that today's western politics has more in common with Islam than with the Constitution of the United States and Christianity. Why ..because they are all following an Ishmaelite template or pattern..not the pattern of Issac....not the product advertised to the public. Rome just happens to be a Roman Catholic version of the Ishmaelite template. You have a Hebrew version, a Protestant version, an Asian version...et al but all of Ishmael and the Bondwoman.

And it is stated that all men shall be against him and he shall be against all men. This is turning out to be true in more ways than many of us recognize.
And it is clear that our own government is turning against us...in like manner to the Ishmaelite template.

I know this sounds odd..even peculiar but when you peel back the outside veneer and look underneath where the real fruit is hidden..there it is.

You take the wars in which this country has been involved..the Boxer Rebellion, Spanish American War, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam and now Iraq and Afghanistan. They are all for the purpose of bringing about the Ishmaelite pattern. Today's wars are designed not to finish ..but to be kept going.
It takes a very devout religion to keep this going on the backs and souls of a people.

Even in Europe...the wars going back to Waterloo, the 1840s, 1870s, The Russian Revolution and also WW1&WW2. Many of them financed by large banks who were often supplying both sides with capital and as long as the war continued they stood to make a bundle and create their desired post war conditions.
This is Ishmael at work. "Their hand shall be against every man and every man against them."

It may not be scientific or according to standard human M1A logic but it fits.

As to this ...


Originally posted by orangetom1999
.
All this talk about the President being a Muslim. I don't think so at all. I do think that this President has in his heart the world position of Ishmael. He is an Ishmaelite. He is not after Issac.

This statement is just out of left field. No one has said anything about that on this thread that I am aware of. It's rather arrogant of you to make such a judgment and purport that you can read a man's heart when all you know of him is what the media bias chooses to portray.


It would appear to be so on the surface..in the flesh..but once again peel back the veneer.

I don't put much stock in the media..any of it. Years ago I got an olde shortwave set and tuned in the world on a copper wire strung out back. This was before the advent of the Internet and home computers. What I found was a wealth of news and information's which never got into this country or on what passed for news back then. I learned by this what a heavy paper curtain was over a supposedly free peoples.

The media is nothing more than a bunch of shills for their respective political parties. All of them Mouthpieces teaching and preaching the party line. The media will all lie and deceive you as to the true nature of politics while they shill for votes and bucks. All this required media bias..you are correct in this..it is imagry. A likeness..not necessarily the product advertised. This is becoming more and more clear to the public as they become savvy about politics and the media both. Bias is the correct word..to describe their Imagry techniques.
This somehow reminds me of the computer generated imagry of studios or special effects. Is it not called. Industrial light and magic or some company like that??
As a matter of fact..the media..is here getting more noticeably tabloid like as time goes by. You may as well be reading the Daily Mirror or the Mail of the Uk. A little about events and then all about the stars!! Wow!!!

I read what I can and make up my own mind based on certain pattern recognition. Particularly through knowledge of the Word.

'As I also recall saying that I knew what the previous President was by his stating in an interview that he believed in a Supreme Being. I knew that this was code speak for the Great Architect of the Universe. This is an Ishmaelite position.

A Believer would have stated that he believes in Jesus the Christ for remission of sins or the God of 'Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. But he didn't say that.

It is indeed that simple Alethea.

What I am describing here Alethea is a counterfeit system infiltrating and overlaying most governmental systems without most of the people knowing this has been done to them. Hijacking their form of government...their money systems, their school systems and politics with the new religion they need to maintain their control over everyone and everything. The Absolute Mastery of Everything.

When I began to get wind of the two systems at work..somewhere I began to comprehend the concept of a counterfeit system being overlaid so as to appear as the real system. This is the system to which Josephus 23 refers when he saw the gold fringed American Flag in court. This is the Admiralty Maritime law system of Equity verses Common Law which is supposed to form the bulk of our laws. Admiralty Maritime Law is taking over and supplanting the Constitution. In counterfeit to what the Founders wanted or desired for this country.

It has even gotten so bad that they have now counterfeited all the coinage with zinc slug pennies and copper nickle token coinage. The paper monies irredeemable have always been counterfeit and don't even conform to the definition in the Uniform Commercial Code for a debt instrument..." Will Pay To the Bearer on Demand."
In order to make 100% profit and even recoup the printing/coinage costs the bankers want to go to electronic monies. By this they will know where the monies are spent, on what and also recoup all the printing/coinage costs. Total control..the absolute mastery of everything.

For you see Alethea...the coins still try to invoke confidence in the ignorant public by stating on them "In God We Trust" Once I know that they have switched to counterfeit coinage ..I now know that they have also switched to the counterfeit god and not told anyone they had done this. In like manner as did the Hebrew leadership more than two thousand years ago.

This counterfeit pattern.goes back to the Ancient Mystery Religions and their tendency towards privy Concealment. It is sometimes called Occult.

And Occult is the pattern of operation of our Leaders, Politics, Public Education, Media et al. And who pays for public education..our body politic. They are connected here ..not isolated events.

Well enough of that for now.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

edit on 6-12-2010 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 09:51 AM
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Thank your for bringing this up Orangetom, Admiralty Law is a concept that we all must truly understand in order to combat these parasites on society. and thank you Proto for creating the structure for dissemination of this information.

I wanted to elaborate on the maritime law concept and how it is SO deceptively controlling, as well as, give each reader a test that they can perform (if they possess the cajones), or one other simple test that does not require putting yourself in the line of fire, so to speak.

This will prove, without a doubt, the validity of this concept.

!) First test. According to the constitution, we are allowed three types of courts in the US: common law (where an actual offense is against a person and a victim is needed), civil law (where once again a dispute must be challenged between two parties), and also, unfortunately maritime or admiralty law (this is essentially Roman Public International Law) It decides the jurisdiction one is charged under, and the way this is done is by the flag of the court. The flag gives visual representation of this jurisdiction.

If you are arrested for a code or a statute violation, which is unconstitutional to do to a live person BTW.., then request a COURT REPORTER, and when you get one, then kindly ask the judge "in what type of court is my trust being charged?"

They will either drop the case immediately, if it IS ON THE COURTS RECORD, or you go to guantanamo.

This is the easier proof.. but it is not quite as poignant

2) Go to every court in the state, along with all state and local buildings and you will see gold fringe to tell you the jurisdiction of the incorporate town.

This is all the product of Roman Law. Law that was designed to keep a large empire under control.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by Alethea
 





Proto has stated numerous times throughout these pages that this thread is NOT about religion. For that reason and on this basis, I shall leave you to your delusions. You are welcome to start another thread if you wish to continue on with this subject matter.


Indeed it's not! Even though at times I think you yourself may have wished otherwise.

What we are seeing here, presently is the fact that pretty much no two people can agree upon religion.

Normally that is to say the vast majority of the time people just 'quote' scripture, kind of like Stormdancer and her flyby posts where she will just deposit a whole lengthy passage from the bible with out comment, and depart to the next thread to dump it there too.

Simple people of faith, tend to take these passages on face value, with a simple understanding of them to go along.

Of course this adds nothing particuarly insightful or toppical to the post except for in the mind of the person depositing them here.

Yet when not so simple people but highly intelligent and articulate people of faith start offering their own renderings of what the Bible(s) are actually saying then you get into an area that as Masqua pointed out many times earlier in the thread likely impressed Rome when it came to people like the Isrealites practicing monotheism which was anything but mono in it's interpretation as different sects violently warred against one another for dominance for their interpretations of the scripture, codes and laws.

The disagreements lead to frustration and that frustration often leads to anger and emnity, and that often leads to something Rome truly loves, divide and conquer war!

Orangetom has probably put more thought into what's in the Bible(s) and what they all mean than anyone to ever grace ATS.

There is no telling how right or wrong he is, but I believe one of the things he is 'right' about, is 'capturing' the mindset, politically and spiritually, of the people of those times.

Of the three sects of Abraham, modern day Christians are perhaps the most intriquing as they have discarded a lot of the mindset, and politics that comprise a number of the spiritual notions in the bible, for politically correct thinking on the part of the state.

They no longer adhere to the parts of the Bible that are contrary to things like Women's liberation, equal rights, and openly shun some of it's strict morality that was constructed by the socieites of those days, but codified none the less in the New Testament and Holy Roman Bible.

They still consider themselves devout and proper despite these rejections that are basically saying well God didn't have it right in all regards, while at the same time being rather fearful of Muslims and to a lesser extent Jews that the very orthodox or devout ones are still following these Talmudic laws about morallity.

Orangetom is probably more perceptive in regards to the Talmudic Codes set up in the Cannons than anyone, and as he displays and lists them, I think it does highlight how many Christians have moved significantly away from many of the fundamental tenents of the religion as they have more and more rejected the Talmudic Laws dealing with morality, in favor of modern day societal constructs that work better for Rome (the State) and it's arms (the Corporations) while still keeping them in bondage and fighting over just what the one God wants.

I am hoping that this is something that the more perceptive posters will see as Orangetom interacts with them, in regards to their own 'unique' views of the monotheistic concepts Rome saddled and enslaved the people with, pretty much knowing that the people would never fully agree on them, and that could be skillfully used to Rome's advantage.

The truth is divining this God of "Love" usually ends up leading most people to a not so loving impass that often turns violent.

While no, I don't feel what the Bible 'means' is important to this thread, what the individual interpretations of the Bible lead to, and how Rome manipulates it is.

When you begin to understand what Orangetom is really saying, that the vast majority of people who read the Bible really have very little understanding of what it is actually saying, then you begin to understand that Rome has no particular interest that they do, only that the people remain divided and fighting over it, much like a room full of children would, when they are only provided one toy to share between them.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat!


edit on 6/12/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: spelling



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 08:45 PM
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There have been many conspiracy investigations about the religious side of Rome, The Vatican, the Jesuits, bible prophecies etc and none of them had succeeded as much as this thread did and it's so because religion lead to false perception and erroneous conclusions, based and inflenced on misleading perceptual informations.

I think Proto is right..!, the only way to understand our world system and the complexity of Rome ( TPTB ), is to investigate Rome with atheist's eyes and a logical, Intellectual mind.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 10:08 PM
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Was reading this list on another website about Rome



Given the temporal power the Church wielded (and still does to a certain degree, though more through influence now), one could say that the Roman Empire is still at the heart of Western society.

Top 10 Fascinating Things about Rome



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