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Arizona did the right thing!

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 04:50 PM
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Who said it violates the 4th amendment? You're coloring my opinion with the opinion of others who disagree with you and argue that it is unconstitutional.

The violation is that it deals with foreign affairs, and before you say it doesn't, well, some law professors disagree with you.



The Arizona law appears to be “facially unconstitutional,” Manheim said. “States have no power to pass immigration laws because it’s an attribute of foreign affairs. Just as states can’t have their own foreign policies or enter into treaties, they can’t have their own immigration laws either.” States have long attempted to regulate immigration and in some instances the federal government successfully challenged state laws in court, including in the 1800s, Manheim said. But federal governments often stay out of the fight. In 1994, for example, California voters passed a law designed to deny social services to undocumented aliens. The law was challenged by private litigants and struck down by a federal court.


Furthermore, it doesn't take any form of proof to suggest that the law is going to cause rampant racial profiling. And while you might be fine with prejudicial practices in fighting crime, most ethical people do not. To add, it also undermines many of our American values. Sure, the constitution protects these rights, but it didn't MAKE these rights. These rights and virtues are derived from natural law, in the belief that ALL HUMANS, not just Americans, inherently have these rights because they are human. The constitution's foundations are completely derived from natural law, and allowing a law that promotes racial profiling (regardless of any regulations or training to curb the practice) still goes against our values.

So either you only care about the constitution and rights when it comes down to your individual being, or you don't consider brown folk as humans. These are the only two rational explanations for why anyone would support this bill.

Not that I'm suggesting that your thinking, or anyone else who thinks this law is just, is rational, but those are the only two inferences one can make when typically freedom loving individuals support something completely contrary to their principles and virtues.

So either your a hypocrite, you're a racist, or you're irrational. Or bring forth your own reasoning so it can be examined and critiqued to see whether or not it's rational and perhaps it is. Perhaps you're neither of the three things I just said you might be. But based on all information and my solid understanding of human nature, I'm pretty sure it is one of the three.




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


Yes, I read that article. It is almost hilarious.

A state decides to ENFORCE a federal law and that is facially un Constitutional because a state cannot enact foreign affairs?

Wow, that was almost hilarious when I read the article.

I noticed that they did not mention anything on case law that backed his position. I also know that in the Constitution one of the very things required of the federal government is to repel invasion.

That is one person's opinion. If I remember correctly, when something is to be argued in front of a court, you have BOTH sides arguing, not just someone making a declaration.

If the federal government cannot and will not protect a state, I feel that provides the exact provision to negate the federal government once and for all. I feel a secession movement may move forward if something is not done.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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according to the polls
AZ did the right thing

www.cnn.com




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by skunknuts
 


Come on! He was simply making a comparison, do you know what they is? Mexico will severely punish those who go there illegally, and we do nothing. that is the point. why drag the ADL into this mix?



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by xBWOMPx
I'm sorry but people acting out against the immigration law that was placed in Arizona are out right wrong. It is not a racial issue it is an immigration issue. And I would bet that law that passed has nothing racist in it what so ever, as a matter of fact I would almost bet that if it was a black or Hispanic woman that passed the law then it wouldn't be racist. I'm sick of it, i'm tired of white people always being labeled racist over just about anything but it's impossible for any other race to be racist. I think they did the right thing passing that law, theres a lot of messed things going on with drug cartels and drug lords and gangs killing tourists in Mexico. We need to pass laws like this to help prevent that from spreading into America!


I am in full agreement with what you said, every single word of it. My hat is off to you, sir. Immigration laws have been in place in America since it's inception, and the Constitution stands firm in my mind. I have taken but one Oath in my entire life, and that was to "Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United States." I took the oath, and that is what I will do, even if it kills me.


Originally posted by endtimer
Yes they sure did do the right thing. It is about thirty years late though.
And all of the things you mentioned about drug cartels and murders
have long spilled over into the states, not just lately. Texas, California,
and New Mexico need to step up to the plate and show some guts
with this bill. And then it needs to spread to every state in the union.


You bet they did! And you are right, this has been going on for a very long time, and somebody in Washington is making a lot of money off these people. I will not name names, because I don't know any, but take a good hard look at those who are against this law, you just might see who is profiting from it.


I am sick of paying for all of the freebies that these sponges have
"demanded" of us. Free this, free that, give me, give me, give me.


I heard all that. That is all they want, a free lunch, and they all need to see there is none of that here. We Americans do not expect that, so why should we offer it to others?


I say bring on the national guard and get started with cleaning up this country, and do it now.


I agree here 100% We can also use the Militias too. We don't need to hurt anyone, but we do need to clean up our country, and fast, and after we get all the illegals out, let's set our sights on Capital Hill. that is a nest of vipers and liars and greedy bastards that needs a good cleaning.


And if other posters are on here, don't attack me for what I am saying.
I am talking about the "illegals" that some people don't seem to understand.
I am talking about the ones that come here in the dark of the night and
sleaze their way across the border. If you can come here "legally"
like most immigrants do, then welcome to America. Just quit crapping on
our country and demanding for us to pay you for whatever you demand
today. Have your babies in Mexico and raise them as Mexicans.


I will not attack you, no way. You are talking my language here, friend. As for what the illegals and their supporters say to you, or about you, or me, for that matter, don't let it bother you. We both know what is right, and people sneaking over the border in the dark of night are not in the right, no matter how loud they scream they are.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


Live in Phoenix for a year, near 16th st. and Roosevelt, then come back and see if you have the same attitude.

I can guarentee you won't.

Stop throwing political key words around like cheap sushi and see the issue for what it really is. The common man's problem. Not Washington's.



Peace
Why because it is a bad neighborhood? Full of Mexican's? And Gangs are over running things there?

I found a lot of pages online describing the bad neighborhood.

I live in Louisville, we have bad neighborhoods and gang problems here, very much. Lots and Lots of Mexicans live here too. A very lot.

I choose not to live in the bad neighborhood. I never go to the bad neighborhoods.

I dont see why the fact Phoenix has a gang problem would make me rethink my support for this bill/law. It wouldnt. My attitude is the same.

When I was young I lived in a hispanic neighborhood in Denver. All the stores everything, hispanic. I didnt know I was supposed to hate all the people in the neighborhood based on greencard status. I am more of a humanist than that.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:12 PM
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I cant BELIEVE all this GARBAGE about it being unconstitutional!

There is NOTHING UNCONSTITUTIONAL or WRONG with this recently passed Bill. In fact it is VERY BENEFICIAL to ALL of those who are LEGAL, law-abiding citizens of who have put in the BLOOD, SWEAT, and TEARS to make America great.

I find it VERY STRANGE that most of the people making the "unconstitutional claims", never raised their voices in the past in support constitutional issues!! Where were they so many times in the past that they could have spoken up? CLEARLY to me, it seems that these individuals are making a big stink about this because they, OR someone they KNOW, may be of ILLEGAL status, in other words a CRIMINAL! I hope the next law is that anyone with knowledge of an illegal whom doesn't REPORT them, they too be punished by the law. Not reporting a CRIMINAL is just as BAD as being one of them

GOOD JOB ARIZONA, THIS IS A BIG WIN FOR THE HARD-WORKING, LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS OF THE STATE.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Captain_Sense
I cant BELIEVE all this GARBAGE about it being unconstitutional!

There is NOTHING UNCONSTITUTIONAL or WRONG with this recently passed Bill. In fact it is VERY BENEFICIAL to ALL of those who are LEGAL, law-abiding citizens of who have put in the BLOOD, SWEAT, and TEARS to make America great.

I find it VERY STRANGE that most of the people making the "unconstitutional claims", never raised their voices in the past in support constitutional issues!! Where were they so many times in the past that they could have spoken up? CLEARLY to me, it seems that these individuals are making a big stink about this because they, OR someone they KNOW, may be of ILLEGAL status, in other words a CRIMINAL! I hope the next law is that anyone with knowledge of an illegal whom doesn't REPORT them, they too be punished by the law. Not reporting a CRIMINAL is just as BAD as being one of them


Besides the fact that I was against the health care bill...and the stimulus plan...and the two unlawful, unwarranted wars....and the patriot act....and the drug war....and well, basically anything that has been unconstitutional. But thank you for the generalization and insults, it means you can't actually pick apart anyone who is against this bill based on what THEY say, and not what YOU say they say.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by SpectreDC
 


Yes you are correct, I forgot about mentioning you as the exception. My comments do NOT refer to you, but it DOES to ALL THE REST that are claiming this to be unconstitutional.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by Captain_Sense]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Captain_Sense
reply to post by SpectreDC
 


Yes you are correct, I forgot about mentioning you as the exception. My comments do NOT refer to you, but it DOES to ALL THE REST IT of them that are claiming this to be unconstitutional.



And while I have my qualms with many who cry that it is unconstitutional, considering many of those same people don't care about other cases of things being unconstitutional, doing the same thing as them is just hypocritical and solves nothing.

I mean, beyond the question of whether it violates the 4th amendment, beyond the question of whether a state is capable of making legislation affected foreign affairs, it is without question that this undermines fundamental American values, values that aren't "given" by the constitution, but values that the founders believe every single human being on this planet. Values derived from natural law. Which is why I see this law as unjust, unconstitutional, and frankly unethical.

Perhaps in an utilitarian perspective, this is a solution. But in my opinion, the ends do not justify the means, that a person needs to choose what is right over what is good. Perhaps this seems like the most pragmatic solution to the problem, even though I don't believe it will solve anything, but it isn't the right solution.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


No disrespect implied friend, but compare the demographic stats of Louisville Ky vs Phoenix Az and you will see a marked difference. I'm pretty certain that is what the poster was referring to.

Anyway, add my voice to those that think this was a good thing,

This has the factual broad support of a majority of those in Arizona, which is a state that is, after all, 30 percent hispanic to begin with. Clearly, legal immigrants are in favor of this bill as well as the much maligned 'white folk'.

It's their state, let them decide, in my opinion.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by skunknuts
 


I am sure it has been said before..
No it is not.
You have to be a legal citizen before you have rights granted by the Constitution. For all the ILLEGALS get in line. Fill out the correct paperwork and be welcomed into this great nation. If you crossed the border as an ILLEGAL go back before you are considered a terrorist or criminal and ruin your family's chance.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by boondock-saint
 



"What happens to an American who enters
Mexico illegally?"


And do you believe Mexico is enforcing this policy? If they were, their wouldn't be OTM's (other than Mexicans) crossing the border.



Not only that, but what about all the Americans that retire and live in Mexico?



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by boondock-saint
 



yes and they ALL have a valid US birth certificate
so what's the problem ??? Just show the dang
thing and be on ur merry way


When they start asking for every American's BC, then and only then will this Mexican show his.

If it is a national ID you want, then so be it.


I agree with you there. The same applies to this guy here. I also agree that the corporations and companies that hire the illegals are the ones that need to be targeted and enforced. Think about all the jobs that U.S. Citizens can get back if those corps. were forced to not hire illegals.

edit for spelling.

[edit on 25-4-2010 by divinetragedy79]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 09:37 AM
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You all keep blaming AZ for doing this.
I dont know why.
The FEDS are the ones who should have ttaken care of this issue in thefirst place, but they havent, they always use it as a platform of re-election. Though, when someone finally has the balls to stand up and say "Look, we are tired of dealing with this, it is an issue that has plagued all the border states for sometime now,something had to be done" people get mad.
Its ridiculous.
IF THE FED GOVT DID THEIR JOB...(AHEM..REAGON< BUSH< CLINTON< OBAMA) then we wouldnt have had to worry about how AZ is handling their own affairs. Yes, this bill may have someproblems on theprofiling part and all of that, but it is still a jump in the right direction. You can always fix theparts people haveproblems with and continue on doing what it is you set out to do, FIXING THE DAMN COUNTRY.

I will say thisthough-

It got the Feds out talking about it now didnt it? Its on the dinner plate at every senators house this very evening. The States are forcing them to work on our behalf without even realizing it. Or maybe they do =).

Edit-


[edit on 25-4-2010 by Common Good]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtaterVillainizing illegals is not an answer. It is wrong.


They villianized themselves by entering the United States illegally. Entering a country illegally is... wrong.

I don't know much about the new law passed or how it steps on the constitution, however something needs to be done. There's plenty of reports out there about what illegals bring to this society, some very, very bad. I don't blame the illegals for wanting a better life, in fact I think a lot of us would do the same if we were put in their shoes.

They have children who needs to be fed, they love their children just like Americans do. However, Americans fought for what they have today, even shed blood for it.

Mexicans, instead of running away from their problems, should try to do something about it instead. I don't presume to know what, but something, anything.

I know I would at least try. If that fails, become an illegal immigrant.


Just my take on the issue of course.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 01:08 PM
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I would really like to invite all these people who are up in arms about this legislation, yet providing no alternative measures, to live out a "30 Days" episode in southern Arizona, or in west Texas close to the border and see if their perspective doesn't shift just a wee bit.

And before you call me a hypocrite for not doing the same, I used to live in El Paso... the notion that a "bad" neighborhood in Louisville, KY is the same as a "bad" neighborhood on the Southwest border is laughable.

After this 30 days, you can come back and report your findings... assuming you do come back and aren't rotting in a shallow grave somewhere in the desert (if you do this, please live in a city and not somewhere out in the country - cartel members and their lieutenants in the states will kill anyone they even think are within five miles of a drop).

You will discover three things in rapid succession either from firsthand experience or through local media outlets; one, you are and always will be potential collateral damage outside (and sometimes inside your home), two, the purveyors of such violence, typically gangs with ties to the cartels, absolutely do not care and three, you're going to want to come home quickly.

After you experience this, I invite you to give us your opinions on what exactly you would do about illegal immigration since the above problem and the flow of illegals across the borders go hand in hand. If you don't like Arizona's attempts to deal with the Federal Government's impotence on this issue, fine, but we expect a viable alternative - believe me, you'll be more than willing to provide one.

See, I lived down there before it got really bad - and it was still bad. Shootings in downtown El Paso by roving gangs of illegals, troops coming back to Bliss from Juarez on a little R&R all over the news broken and battered (eventually they were giving standing orders to NOT cross the border), bodies found in the Franklin Mountains - and you would keep this status quo because you don't want anyone's toes to get stepped on?



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by boondock-saint
 



yes and they ALL have a valid US birth certificate
so what's the problem ??? Just show the dang
thing and be on ur merry way


No...they don't...this isn't a good solution for multiple reasons.

Here are a couple scenarios for you.

A) Person is born in Mexico, comes to the United States LEGALLY. Obtains citizenship through legal means. This person no longer needs their greencard...they are now a legal citizen...they throw it away. This person does not have a valid US birth certificate because they were born in Mexico. So what document would you like them to show?

B) Couple is on vacation in England...has a baby while in England. Person has no valid US birth certificate. What should this person use to prove citizenship?

C) Person was born in Chicago, is on vacation in Arizona when he gets stopped and asked to "see his papers". I don't travel with my birth certificate while still inside the United States...do you??? Further, it is not required for anyone to have a copy of their birth certificate. AND to get a copy of a birth certificate...the individual has to go get it THEMSELVES. So...how is the person born in Chicago supposed to get their birth certificate when they are detained in Arizona???



There are so many scenarios in which this law just does not make sense...but it won't stop you from supporting it.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Here are a couple scenarios for you.

A) Person is born in Mexico, comes to the United States LEGALLY. Obtains citizenship through legal means. This person no longer needs their greencard...they are now a legal citizen...they throw it away. This person does not have a valid US birth certificate because they were born in Mexico. So what document would you like them to show?


I would like for them to carry a state ID or drivers License as required buy law in 24 of the 50 states, As in you either have a valid Driver's License, Permit to drive, state ID or a school ID



B) Couple is on vacation in England...has a baby while in England. Person has no valid US birth certificate. What should this person use to prove citizenship?


A baby is not going to be asked for ID, but if you meaning that when that child grows up, Same answer as A, It happens a lot, military baby's born over seas. My brother was born in Germany, but he still has a Driver's license.



C) Person was born in Chicago, is on vacation in Arizona when he gets stopped and asked to "see his papers". I don't travel with my birth certificate while still inside the United States...do you??? Further, it is not required for anyone to have a copy of their birth certificate. AND to get a copy of a birth certificate...the individual has to go get it THEMSELVES. So...how is the person born in Chicago supposed to get their birth certificate when they are detained in Arizona???


The person from Chicago should be carrying their State ID, Driver License and or Permit to drive as required buy law in their state. Why would they leave it home?

The 24 states as of 2009


Alabama Ala. Code §15-5-30
Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, Ch. 24-12 (enacted 2005)
Arkansas Ark. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1)
Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-101(1)
Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)
Florida Fla. Stat. §856.021(2)
Georgia Ga. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b) (loitering statute)
Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14
Indiana Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5
Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)
Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)
Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)
Montana Mont. Code Ann. §46-5-401
Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat. §29-829
Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat. §171.123
New Hampshire N. H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2
New Mexico N. M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3
New York N. Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50 (1)
North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)
Ohio Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)
Rhode Island R. I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1
Utah Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15
Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983
Wisconsin Wis. Stat. §968.24


Source

Other then that it is not not hard to carry a peace of plastic that says who you are.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by EvilBat
 


You keep saying a DL will be fine...well that isn't what everyone else is saying.

In fact...it didn't work out very well for this truck driver: Truck Driver Thread

And...those states you listed...they have "stop and identify" laws...but they ONLY require you to state your name and in some cases address. No where in the law does it require you to provide an ID....no where. There is even a supreme court case that says that you don't have to provide documentation. You cannot be arrested because you don't have an ID...plain and simple...it is not a crime.

Here is an example from Illinois Law

Source



Sec. 107‑14. Temporary questioning without arrest.
A peace officer, after having identified himself as a peace officer, may stop any person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably infers from the circumstances that the person is committing, is about to commit or has committed an offense as defined in Section 102‑‑15 of this Code, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of his actions. Such detention and temporary questioning will be conducted in the vicinity of where the person was stopped.


Not everyone drives...so not eveyrone has a DL. And there are no laws ,that I am aware of, that REQUIRE you to get a state ID. OR what if the people in all these scenarios are in one of the other states that don't have stop and identify laws (not that it matters as you can see above...but for the sake of argument)...then what???

Your whole argument against my scenarios is to have a DL or state ID...which I have just shown is not REQUIRED in any state that I know of. The Stop and Identify laws DO NOT REQUIRE you to provide any type of documentation...just state your name and possibly address. But again...for sake of argument...even if those states did require you to have a DL or state ID, what about the people in the other 26 states that don't have these laws???



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