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Why do you support the ILLEGALS?

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by humilisunus
 


I am not sure if I am amused, bemused or distressed by your childlike faith in 'our leaders'.

Propositions such as



The leaders are all for the human race, they want global efforts to push humanity past this planet and into the stars...


are quite simply nonsensical at best.

A radical concept, and hardly a new one, that through social engineering a "New Man" might be fabricated. The French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, socialist movements, and the modern welfare state all find their source in this type of radical theory, and mounds of corpses produced by these experiments bear stark witness to the error, and ruthlessness, of that school of thought.

With regards to the actual idea that we will all one day join hands as a single species, grateful that 'our leaders' had the foresight to hasten our development, you again ignore the lessons of history.



In a portion of a very fine collection of essays by the Spanish philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset, published in English fifty years ago under the title Concord and Liberty, we read of the distress of the Roman statesman Cicero at the fact that his country, his beloved Rome, was sunk deeply into crisis -- a deadly crisis as it turned out -- and that the way of life which all Romans had for centuries taken for granted as part of the established order of the universe was crumbling and would soon be a mere accumulation of memories. Among these memories, of course, were Roman liberty and the famed Roman republican system. Cicero gave expression to the belief that something deeper was at the root of Roman vexations, something that made the crisis through which he was living different from that experienced in earlier upheavals. The very foundations of Roman existence, as they had always been understood, were threatened. As Ortega y Gasset put it, "What [Cicero] beheld was not merely a struggle ... within the human setting that from time immemorial had been the Roman commonwealth, but the total destruction of that community." Cicero noted that in the past Romans often disagreed, even disagreed strongly. But these had been clashes among members of a large family, so to speak, among friends. Adversaries in political disputes were not deadly enemies, and friendship endured beneath the surface. "A contest between friends, not a quarrel between enemies, is called a disagreement," wrote Cicero. This was so because, though they disputed with one another over transitory issues, at bottom all agreed on the fundamentals: beliefs about life, about the universe, about religion, about moral norms, about legal principles, and so forth. This agreement about the fundamentals, even among adversaries, Cicero called concordia or "concord." Under all non-despotic forms of government, concord -- agreement on the fundamentals -- is obviously an essential. The absence of concord among Romans of Cicero's time, says Ortega y Gasset, meant that the inward structure of ancient Roman life had been fractured beyond repair. (J. Thornton)


In other words the more culturally alike a populace, the more propitious the long-term prospects for any society or nation. There can be no true national community and, more to the point, there can be no freedom in countries where the majority of people holds little in common. Freedom is the product of social, political, and religious concord.

Personally, I see no good reason for this whole situation. I liked America the way it was in 1970's. I think Americans did too -- but nobody asked them.

Still, suppose you like the diversity fantasy. You think pigs will fly. The lion will lie down with the lamb.

The point remains: the consequences of being wrong are irreversible.




[edit on 24-4-2010 by D377MC]

[edit on 24-4-2010 by D377MC]




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by prionace glauca
 


Well, if I were in support of illegals it would be because of cheap labor and plently of votes come election time. All I would have to do is grease the right wheels and/or setup our system to reward people for being here illgally, thereby all but assuring me of the illegal vote for every election.

Oh wait, they're already doing that.

No amnesty
No speacial treatement
No rights granted to a citizen

You either play by the rules or you go home and come back when you can.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


They can't and will not. They prefer to change the rules, aided and abetted by the traitors who lead us on the slippery slope of multiculturalism.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:34 PM
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In his book entitled The Russian Question at the End of the Twentieth Century, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn warned his readers of a new peril to all the peoples of this world, "The vulgar and insipid wave which seeks to level distinctions between cultures, traditions, nationalities, and characters has engulfed the whole planet."

It seems none were listening then, and none are listening now.....



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by D377MC
 


This is one of the things that bothers me. Many of the people who are so intent on arguing about the basic human rights, and all the other feel good arguments are failing to consider one thing.

That thing being;

Perhaps the very lack of regard for law, order, and the duties of a citizen to his/her country and fellow citizens that is being imported into our country by illegal immigrants is the very thing that made the country they are abandoning so crappy they are leaving it.

I hear so much sympathy for these "poor human beings" but no one is asking why where they are from is in such bad shape that they have to leave for here. And no one is considering what traits or qualities our citizenry have held and shaped this country with that make it so appealing to so many around the world.

If I refuse to clean my house, or discipline my children, will these kind people let me move into their house when finally I cant live in the mess I have created? Actually, to follow the analogy, I dont even need to ask. I will just show up in their living room one day, and help myself.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:48 PM
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Too bad no one could give a rational answer instead of "because they are hard workers just trying to support their families." But to those that regurgitate this absurdity, let me ask this: You pay a lot of money for a high-tech alarm for your home. You neighbor, aware of the alarm, studies it, learns the ins and outs. One day he or she breaks in, steals everything, then sells it to buy a cell phone, get cable and internet, maybe some food, some clothes, and a new car. Now, all of your neighbor's hard work was just so he could support his family. Still want to make this argument?

AND, before anyone complains about comparing illegals to a burglar, let's remember one little fact, they are both criminals.

Illegals are supported by 1. Hispanic groups trying to gain power and influence by having a large voting block. 2. Wealthy liberals who see the occasional illegal when their lawn is being mowed; and 3. Whites who feel guilty about the oppression of non-whites throughout a portion of this country's history.

As for the "you are all illegal" argument the sheep like to spew: First of all, stay on topic. We are talking about NOW, not THEN. Second, most Indian land was bought and paid for. So, please, shut the F up.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by skoalman88]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by skoalman88

As for the "you are all illegal" argument the sheep like to spew: First of all, stay on topic.


Well, whether the land was bought and paid for or not, the "you are all illegal" argument is actually an excellent argument for preventing more illegal immigration.

After all, look what tolerating illegal immigrants did to the Native Americans. Once the "illegals" got sufficient numbers, they took over and converted the country into something more like what they had at home.

How'd that "open door" policy work out for them? And, if the answer is "not so good" then why on Earth would we want to follow the same track?



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by D377MC
 



I hear so much sympathy for these "poor human beings" but no one is asking why where they are from is in such bad shape that they have to leave for here. And no one is considering what traits or qualities our citizenry have held and shaped this country with that make it so appealing to so many around the world.




Precisely the traits they refuse to recognize and are working so hard to erase, born of a Christian heritage allowed to flourish in freedom. When they say 'we want what you have' we are inclined to share, because that is who we are. Only fools think that when roles are reversed, and they soon will be as we become a minority, then they will be as magnanimous - or stupid, I'm not really sure anymore - as to agree.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by antonia
 


And? And? You were the one who stated the first assumption. I finished for you.

I have stated my solution in two other threads.

If you would have asked, I would have posted it in this one as well.

Way to overreact.


Maybe you should go back and read the first post.



Don't try to answer this by who do I hate the Illegals. Illegals are here in this country illegally. They have no rights to be here and certainly can not use or prescribe to the rights of our constitution. This problem has gone unnoticed far too long. Too many administrations have put this problem aside as it takes further toll on our communities, schools, workplace, & safety. Illegals continue to starve America from its efforts to support the unfortunate American Citzens. How much of our state, fedral Aid and support is doled out to illegals? The Federation for American Immigration Reform (an advocate group interested in immigration reform),[100] used the U.S. INS statistics on how many illegal immigrants are residing in each country and the U.S. Dept of Education's current expenditure per pupil by state, and found the estimated cost of educating illegal alien students and U.S. citizen children of illegal aliens in 2004 was $29.6 billion. -Wiki The above is just the bare minimum estimate from 2004. And that is only for education. Factor in other costs that us the taxpayer has to foot Subsidized housing, Food Stamps, Child Support, Free Health Care..... Waves of illegal immigrants are taking a heavy toll on U.S. public lands along the Mexican border, federal officials say.[129] Mike Coffeen, a biologist with the Fish and Wildlife Service in Tucson, Arizona found the level of impact to be shocking.[129] "Environmental degradation has become among the migration trend's most visible consequences, a few years ago, there were 45 abandoned cars on the Buenos Aires refuge near Sasabe, Arizona and enough trash that a volunteer couple filled 723 large bags with 18,000 pounds of garbage over two months in 2002."[130] "It has been estimated that the average desert-walking immigrant leaves behind 8 pounds of trash during a journey that lasts one to three days if no major incidents occur. Assuming half a million people cross the border illegally into Arizona annually, that translates to 2,000 tons of trash that migrants dump each year."[131] Illegal immigrants trying to get to the United States via the Mexican border with southern Arizona are suspected of having caused eight major wildfires in 2002. The fires destroyed 68,413 acres (276.86 km2) and cost taxpayers $5.1 million to fight.[132] Illegal immigrants have also used many parks inside the United States to grow and then distribute illegal drugs, turning previously protected nature areas into "heavily armed drug compounds". -wiki Why should this continue? Why is it even allowed? Why do American Citizens stand up for this kind of behavior? My last question is Why Do you hate AMERICA?


Yea, all that crap. The assumption is pretty freaking clear. If i don't agree with this and the subsequent Arizona legislation mentioned down thread- I am obviously a lover of illegals and hater of America. I didn't say you were a racist. You jumped there because it's the easiest thing for you to argue. As for your solution-Well, how would you feel about food prices going through the roof? I promise you American's aren't picking anything for cheap and without medical benefits. Your grasp of the situation is superficial. If you throw those people out with all their kids you are going to be left with some very serious economic issues. And no, Americans won't just snap back into it and take those jobs and build new industries.

I don't see why most of you are worried though. Most welfare does not go to illegal aliens. It goes to American citizens. The biggest chunk is white females. If you have to harp on one group specifically for "over-representation" then you should be harping on Black Americans. Now, we could just get rid of welfare all together but this brings a very different set of problems. As for this crap about multiculturalism, give it a rest guys. Meso-Americans are not that different from Europeans in custom beyond the different version of Spanish. They celebrate most of the same holidays, worship the same god and tend to buy into all that democracy stuff too. At the end of the day, once all the jobs are gone they will go home.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by antonia]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by D377MC

Precisely the traits they refuse to recognize and are working so hard to erase, born of a Christian heritage allowed to flourish in freedom. .


Most Mexicans are Catholic. Last time I checked they were Christians. They celebrate the same holidays, share most European customs, etc. Don't compare this issue to that of Europe and the Islamic population. It's not the same.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by antonia]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by antonia
 


Its not about where the most welfare goes, they shouldn't get any of it. Your reasoning is very faulted and reeks of special rights for some & not for others. In my eye there should be no ifs and buts on ILLEGALS, they are here illegally and should be shown the door. Plus their anchor babies should not be allowed to receive any special citizen rights as the parents were here illegally.

If you have a problem with that then you obviously don't respect this country and its laws.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by prionace glauca
reply to post by antonia
 


Its not about where the most welfare goes, they shouldn't get any of it. Your reasoning is very faulted and reeks of special rights for some & not for others. In my eye there should be no ifs and buts on ILLEGALS, they are here illegally and should be shown the door. Plus their anchor babies should not be allowed to receive any special citizen rights as the parents were here illegally.

If you have a problem with that then you obviously don't respect this country and its laws.


I didn't give any reasoning for why illegals should be here. I just told you why you shouldn't really worry that much about the welfare issue everyone harps on about. You might want to calm down. Frankly, I think you are just hankering to unleash some anger and this is your particular hot button issue through which you do it. I don't think you have any real solutions beyond rhetoric. As for this crap about my respecting the country etc, I'm not a nationalist by any stretch of the means. I don't get bent out of shape about people "respecting" my country. I'd rather they respect people in general. As for laws, well, you are making assumptions. I'm not here telling people to run up the border, pop out babies to piss you off and they steal all your money. I'd rather they follow the law but, I am also pragmatic. I am well aware that throwing all these people out of their hind ends is probably not going to solve the issue and will create larger problems.


[edit on 24-4-2010 by antonia]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by prionace glauca
 



Its not about where the most welfare goes, they shouldn't get any of it.


What she is trying to tell you that the myth of illegals getting welfare and bankrupting our society is false.


anchor babies


Let me correct you. They are Americans.


If you have a problem with that then you obviously don't respect this country and its laws.


Obviously you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be criticizing little kids who are natural born Americans as outlined in the US constitution. Furthermore the laws entitling these Americans to the benefits they receive.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:20 PM
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I think I and other fellow American citizens have stayed calm for awhile and let this problem grow when we should have been voicing our concerns sooner. Now with AZ leading the charge we can finally support their decision to do something about this cancerous spread that is deteriorating neighborhoods and communities all across the nation.

You want to show sympathy, show sympathy for the millions of senior citizens whose med benefits are getting cut, real American people who are afraid to go hospital worried about costs when an illegal can go in and get free care. I don't know how you can hold your head up high and call yourself a citizen of this country when you support things such as allowing the illegals to flourish or provide amnesty.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by prionace glauca]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by jam321

Obviously you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be criticizing little kids who are natural born Americans as outlined in the US constitution. Furthermore the laws entitling these Americans to the benefits they receive.


This is truth. I am the daughter of one of 7 anchor babies. My father served in the military for 20 years. Pretty much all of his brother and sisters went on to get a college education and good jobs (without government aid) or get jobs with the state. One joined the F.B.I.

Anchor babies is a disgusting term. People act like these kids are just leeches. No they are people and they grow up to be members of this society like everyone else. Some go bad, most go on to be normal everyday Americans.

Maybe we should just call them what they really are-Scapegoat babies.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by antonia
This is truth. I am the daughter of one of 7 anchor babies. My father served in the military for 20 years. Pretty much all of his brother and sisters went on to get a college education and good jobs (without government aid) or get jobs with the state. One joined the F.B.I.

Anchor babies is a disgusting term. People act like these kids are just leeches. No they are people and they grow up to be members of this society like everyone else. Some go bad, most go on to be normal everyday Americans.

Maybe we should just call them what they really are-Scapegoat babies.


I do not have any qualms about your situation as my situation is the similar to yours. I came into this country with my parents and got naturalized with them. My parents came here legally and did service to this nation & continue to do so. My issues lie with those who continue to break laws knowingly. Since you know first hand the immigration situation from your own background, you should also know of the abuses the illegal population takes part in. The taxpayers pay for those abuses. Yes there are many more individuals on welfare, unemployment benefits being payed out, and etc etc. Those individuals are given these privileges because of their citizenship status.

This whole issue is around the legality of an individual's stay in this country because of their resident status and these individuals recieving benefits they should have no priveleges to recieve. Remaining silent to this problem from the get go has led to the mass invasions that are rarely talked about.

I thank you for your viewpoint, though both being immigrants we definitely have differing views.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by antonia
I'd rather they follow the law but, I am also pragmatic. I am well aware that throwing all these people out of their hind ends is probably not going to solve the issue and will create larger problems.


I wish you would read up on the problems of altruism vs free riders.

Laws exist for a reason. Every individual in a society gives up some of their autonomy in order to benefit from the collective, society. Laws and social rules are the "price" we pay to get the benefits of living as a collective. Its in everyones best individual interest to figure out a way to reap the benefits of society without paying the costs of living in society by playing by the rules. Those people are called "cheaters" or "free riders." But its in all of our best interest to pay the price to get the broader benefits distributed to all of us in the group. Those who agree to sacrifice some autonomy for the greater good are called "altruists."

People who respond instinctively in very negative way to those who "cheat" the system by taking from society without paying by playing by the rules tend to be the people who are the most social, the most fair. They are rebelling against what they see as an inherent unfairness.

Moreover, those who take a lackadaisical approach to "cheaters" and "free riders" should be aware that game theory and other models show that groups of altruists who do not discriminate against cheaters and freeriders are ALWAYS overrun by said cheaters or freeriders. The only way to maintain a cooperative and altruistic social structure is, paradoxically, to be discriminatory. Not discriminatory against skin colors, but against behaviors. Those who refuse to follow the laws and social rules.

I know thats a lot, and complicated, and there is a huge body of theory behind it, but it is fascinating stuff. You might want to read up on it someday.

Anyway, most people dont know all the details, but most humans who are cooperative have a built in sense that they have to guard against cheaters and free riders. And, they are absolutely right.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by prionace glauca
Since you know first hand the immigration situation from your own background, you should also know of the abuses the illegal population takes part in. The taxpayers pay for those abuses. Yes there are many more individuals on welfare, unemployment benefits being payed out, and etc etc. Those individuals are given these privileges because of their citizenship status.


No, I don't know the abuses (first-hand anyway). Most of the people I know who came here illegally aren't scamming people or the government. Most of these people actually do become naturalized when they can finally dig up enough money to do it. You need to stop blaming a small population for a huge problem. While there may very well be fraud/theft it's minuscule in comparison to problems currently taxing our financial system. This country was in the crapper before illegals showed up and it's just spiraling down the bowl.


This whole issue is around the legality of an individual's stay in this country because of their resident status and these individuals recieving benefits they should have no priveleges to recieve.

Not getting my point are you? If you aren't a citizen, you can't get benefits at all. There are issues in ER's and yes pregnant women can receive Medicaid for the birth regardless of their nationality but, you cannot receive SSI, Food Stamps, Welfare etc without being a citizen. So no, illegals aren't getting much in the way of benefits. Only citizens get them. Go whine at them.


I thank you for your viewpoint, though both being immigrants we definitely have differing views.

I'm no immigrant. I was born in the state of Washington to a man born in Texas and woman born in Washington.



[edit on 25-4-2010 by antonia]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

I wish you would read up on the problems of altruism vs free riders.

I know thats a lot, and complicated, and there is a huge body of theory behind it, but it is fascinating stuff. You might want to read up on it someday.


[edit on 24-4-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]


Ok, sounds great. Here's the problem, they are already here. You already have an economy dependent upon their labor. How do you propose to fix the issues that would be created by kicking these 7 to 20 million people out?



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by prionace glauca
reply to post by SpectreDC
 


I would love to see which judge out there is going to side with ILLEGAL Aliens in this issue. Arizona has strict language in its laws and any judge that tries to overturn or go against such law will have to answer to WE THE PEOPLE who are THE CITIZENS of the USA.



The judge isn't going to side with an illegal immigrant on this issue.


But he will side with an AMERICAN CITIZEN who gets unlawfully detained and harrassed all because of his skin color.

I've really given up trying to speak logically to you...you just don't get it...I don't think you ever can.

Arizona...have fun being bankrupt.




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