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Why do you support the ILLEGALS?

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by prionace glauca
 


Of course not everyone from south of the border is uneducated or illiterate. It would be fair to say, however, that people immigrating illegally from Latin American countries generally do not have a high level of education.

The people with special skills are not the people the anti-illegal immigrant crowd are complaining about. These people can come here legally because a US-based employer will sponsor them because they have skills that are in high demand. These people are not on welfare, not in gangs, and not causing trouble.




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by Light of Night
reply to post by Janky Red
 


What fascist methods?

I keep seeing all these accusations being thrown out, but nothing to back them up. People having to show their ID's? When 24 states have laws that make it illegal to not have your ID?


No, making one group a target for suspicion.

Guilty upon Proven innocent, for some, until proven otherwise...

SS officers detected Jews with the same tools, but you will not admit that sight will
be the primary detection system used to initiate the checks.

What are gonna do if all the brownish people decide not to carry ID's in protest?

This is a turd disguised as a solution, but advocate on if you must, I cannot give you sense...



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 


Again only you and your cohorts just keep trying to paint this a against the Mexican bill. Sad really after several members have pointed out the law to you, you still stick to the same argument of Nazi's and Jews.

You there are laws against throwing Nazi's and Jews into the mix of things for just making points. But you don't believe in laws, as soon as your gray matter fires a signal its quickly outputted without any input from the super-ego.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by D377MC
 


One of, if not THE most accurate post I've read on ATS bar none, friend. I encourage all that would truly seek to 'deny ignorance'(an overused phrase on here unfortunately) to read, research, and consider your post.

In particular, THIS sentence:

"They are clever, for by means of their mental hygiene they have brainwashed us to sympathise with our own demise."

That statement is 100 percent, absolutely correct.

The number one agenda of any 'nwo' 'tptb' 'illuminati' etc. (or however one wishes to label it) is without doubt to have A CHAOTIC AND CONFUSED MAJORITY POPULACE AND THE ERASURE OF MAJORITY TRADITION by forced 'multiculturalism'.

A society---any society---without roots, traditions or mores is doomed to burn and fail.This fact is so maddeningly obvious it is ironically almost always overlooked.

So in my opinion, this is simple: Stop the illegals, stop the majority populace cultural eradication and you are in actuality breaking the back of TPTB that orchestrate this chaos.

And those that 'support the illegals' really need to look a little deeper into the entire matter, IMO.





[edit on 4/24/2010 by Clark Savage Jr.]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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Immigrants pump millions of dollars into our economy every year. They are consumers and our government is making money off of these people. They do not even raise our taxes. blogcritics.org...

We have had a similar argument before on another thread and I really hope you find some other way to occupy your time than immigration debates.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:36 PM
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My first post here and it's one everyone will hate me for.

Here's a few reasons that there should be NO borders and no immigration laws at all.

For one, the country was formed by immigrants. Illegal immigrants who were not wanted here nor welcomed here by the native people and who in the end were turned into criminals by their own native country.

Two, the United States was built on the backs of immigrants, it's historical fact. Virtually every building that originally stood, every house, every landmark, every great invention and every great achievement was in some way aided by or directly the result of, immigrants. Illegal and otherwise.

Three, the people who enter this country illegally wouldn't do so if it wasn't so hard for them to get into it in the first place. Every new immigration law, every new ID requirement and every new fence just makes it harder for everyone to get in without sneaking in. White, Hispanic, Black or whatever. New laws just make it more and more likely that illegal immigration will rise, not fall.

Four, borders more often then not are used to keep the citizens of a country in rather then to keep people out. Ask Hitler. Modern immigration laws in part are based on his ideology and his plans. Which modern country is most famous for instituting immigration policies? Nazi Germany. Which modern country is most famous for having mandatory ID requirements? Nazi Germany. Which modern country is most famous for building a literal wall to keep it's citizens in (the citizens were told it was to keep immigrants out) Nazi Germany. I could go on, or do comparisons to Russia, Communist China, North Korea or Iran, but I think the point is made. We are becoming the very people we claim to be fighting and embracing the very Ideologies that we claim to despise, think about it.

Five, every time I say I hate illegals or immigrants in general, I sound just like that racist, war mongering, single minded twit Hitler or any number of Communist wing nuts who sound just like him. That my friends, is not something I will allow myself to become. Should there be laws in place protecting American Heritage and the American way of life from being over run by other cultures? Yes. Should there be laws preventing the flow of drugs in and out of our country? Yes. Should there be laws protecting us in general, yes. Do anti-immigration laws do any of the above? No. What we have when it comes to immigrants, illegal or otherwise, is a fantastic scape goat to blame all our problems on when the real problem is greedy politicians.

Riddle me this, the world survived for thousands of years without immigration laws. The US survived for almost two hundred years without any real immigration law and in fact flourished into greatness with the help of immigrants. For decades our borders were marked by nothing but shacks with a guard on duty to check for fruit and other contraband. The US seemed to hum along just fine. All of a sudden we need all these new, strict immigration laws. All of a sudden we need walls along the border and armed "border protection" with shoot to kill orders. All of a sudden, the United States is no longer what it once was and looks a hell of a lot more like Hitler's Nazi Germany with walls along the borders, mandatory ID requirements, travel permits and police on every street corner who look more like Navy Seals then cops. Executions on subway platforms, warnings from politicians to behave or else, search warrants not required, people held without lawyers. All in the name of protecting us...if I recall, Hitler used that excuse too.

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by KyleBlackthorne]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by Clark Savage Jr.
 


While i agree the sentence put forth is very true, the part about multiculteralism is not, you see in the distant future we will all be one "species" and not different "races"....if we make it that far. The rulers are doing what is inevitble, but they have it on overdrive so they can see an outcome now instead of their grandchildren seeing it, this is the way it used to be, generations of push before their plans were fruitful, but now they force us to hurry when we as a collective are not ready for this hurdle.

We are still in the begining stages of multiculteralism, its far to early to have world government for we have not formed a strong enough relationship with our other races. It will take a thousand years before we lose our "colour" till we work for one goal instead of individual possesion.

The leaders are all for the human race, they want global efforts to push humanity past this planet and into the stars, but until we get over ourselves the only thing that will work for them is borders and war.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:46 PM
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I do not "support" anything illegal. I simply wish it wasn't illegal in the first place for human beings to travel freely throughout our planet. (Just like I wish the personal use of marijuana wasn't illegal. That doesn't mean I "support" its illegal use. The two are not mutually exclusive.)

I do agree there need to be much, much more stringent checks against violent criminals (from anywhere) entering into any area of the world en mass. That said, I simply don't adhere to the concept of nationality personally. One doesn't have to agree with it, and I respect everyone else's beliefs and opinions, but in my opinion it is a perfectly valid personal belief to hold and doesn't need to be justified any more than anyone's religious and/or spiritual views so long as they don't force them on anyone else (which I'm not.)

Since I exist in a system that has its own laws and rules however, I abide by them. I can still wish they were otherwise, though, and have empathy and yes, even sympathy (those are emotions - I am entitled to feel what I feel. Indeed, I can't help it,) for those who do not, while not "supporting" them. Again, the two are not mutually exclusive.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:49 PM
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We seem to be at loggerheads as to whether the illegal aliens are a net loss or a nnet gain to american society.
I get the impression that if it could be shown to the poplace that they are for the most part self sufficient as well as honest,and contribute more to the gnp than what they soak up, then the illegal aliens may be viewed in a somewhat better light, their continued presence might be encouraged actually....
I believe it has been shown time and again that 99 % of these people are industrious hard working prople who appreciate the opportunities and freedoms we are afforded here perhaps even more than we do ourselves........They certainly apear willing to do just about any dirty job and do it with pride,just to be part of and accepted by this society.
Criminals and fugitives are another story, and deserve a whole other approach.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by prionace glauca
reply to post by Janky Red
 


Again only you and your cohorts just keep trying to paint this a against the Mexican bill. Sad really after several members have pointed out the law to you, you still stick to the same argument of Nazi's and Jews.

You there are laws against throwing Nazi's and Jews into the mix of things for just making points. But you don't believe in laws, as soon as your gray matter fires a signal its quickly outputted without any input from the super-ego.


My cohorts


I have read the bill and the signing statement-

Does not change the fact that it is unconstitutional

I only make the Nazi/Jew comment because the bill uses the same premise, sight based detention, you are the one playing coy, not me...

In both cases I did not write the bill, both are not my fault or yours for that matter.

I think you're going to wish your peeps did not chose to do this now. It is too bad
that you shun the concept of analysis, its only skin off your ass, not mine, enjoy.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by Retrovertigo
The US is FAR from the most generous nation in the world when it comes to foreign aid...

Anyone who claims the US is the most generous nation in the world when it comes to foreign aid is either dishonest, stupid or both...


Expanding on this post, by ararisq www.abovetopsecret.com... ...

Retrovertigo, while the statistics you provided may be factual, you ignore other, equally important numbers. The $26 billion is close to twice the amount given by the next closest donor country, Germany, at $13 billion. It is greater than that of the top two, combined(Germany and U.K.) and the bottom 17, combined. These numbers are extrapolated from your source www.globalpolicy.org...

As ararisq stated, these figures do not include private, charitable donations, which are difficult to track. However, the Charities Aid Foundation, headquartered in the U.K., provides some information. www.cafonline.org... U.S. charitable donations, at 1.67% of GDP, is more than twice that of the second contributing country, the U.K., at 0.73%. I recognize that these figures do not represent just foreign charity. However, does it matter, as long as the individual recipient is a deserving human being?

I won't claim that we are more charitable than everyone else, but we are at least as charitable.

Regarding the OP

It is my opinion that, we should be vigorously enforcing immigration law. If for no other reason, that we are a nation of laws. If we demand respect for the law, from our citizenry, it should, also be required from those who want to reside and work here. Conversely, if we extend amnesty to those who have come here, in violation of our laws, then amnesty must be extended to those American citizens, currently imprisoned for non-violent felonies.

Secondly, what message would amnesty send to those who have worked hard, and are now working hard, to achieve U.S. citizenship, through the proper channels? Would it not suggest that honesty and sincerity are virtues not respected and appreciated, of Americans? To the 2.5 million new, naturalized citizens, over the past three years, do we say "Good job!. Welcome brothers and sisters! Enjoy your new home. But the money you paid, the time you waited and the time you spent studying were wasted. Why didn't you just take the easier, dishonest path?"

Yes, I said 2.5 million naturalized citizens, over the past three years. www.dhs.gov... There is, always, a lot of talk about the difficulty of the legal immigration, or naturalization, process. I ask, if those 2.5 million were able to accomplish the requirements, why not everyone? Isn't it "bigoted", to suggest one person is incapable of accomplishing a task another has achieved? Isn't it "racist" to presume those of one nationality, i.e. the Mexican immigrants, are less capable than another?

Instead, those of us who demonstrate our displeasure with those who have entered our country, in violation of our laws, a.k.a. illegally, are branded "racist" and "bigot". Pfft.......... Whatever




[edit on 24-4-2010 by WTFover]

[edit on 24-4-2010 by WTFover]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by KyleBlackthorne

Three, the people who enter this country illegally wouldn't do so if it wasn't so hard for them to get into it in the first place. Every new immigration law, every new ID requirement and every new fence just makes it harder for everyone to get in without sneaking in. White, Hispanic, Black or whatever. New laws just make it more and more likely that illegal immigration will rise, not fall.



I keep hearing this line of reasoning. Let me rephrase it and see if it makes sense to you when it is not being used regarding illegals.


"The people who rob banks wouldnt do so if it wasnt so hard for them to get money out of banks legally. Every new law against taking other peoples stuff just makes it harder for people to take peoples stuff without sneaking around to do it. "

Its ridiculous when stated that way, isnt it? Its because the reasoning is flawed. You dont commit a crime because it is "hard" to do something legally. You commit a crime because in your own mind, you have weighed the costs and benefits, and you have decided that you are better off breaking the law than following it. Making it cost less to break the law, by not punishing those who do, makes more people break not only that law, but to take ALL of our laws less seriously.

Whether or not America was built on immigration is beside the point. If a boat sinks and there is one lifeboat, and one by one a couple of people "find" it, and swim over to it and enter, this does not mean that those people in the lifeboat should allow everyone and anyone who happens to also swim up and "find" that boat to also get in. At some point, the self interest of the people in that boat force them to make restrictions about new entry into that boat.

In terms of illegal immigrants, I personally do not think the number of new entrants is what bothers me, personally. What bothers me is that illegal entrants do not respect this country that they seem so sure they can benefit from. The want something from this country and her people, but they are not willing to play by the rules of the society that made it that attractive in the first place.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by antonia
 


And? And? You were the one who stated the first assumption. I finished for you.

I have stated my solution in two other threads.

If you would have asked, I would have posted it in this one as well.

Way to overreact.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by WTFover


Secondly, what message would amnesty send to those who have worked hard, and are now working hard, to achieve U.S. citizenship, through the proper channels? Would it not suggest that honesty and sincerity are virtues not respected and appreciated, of Americans?


Exactly. Giving amnesty to those who break our laws is basically a way of telling the people who wait patiently, and save the money for all the fees, forms, etc., that they are stupid. It sends a message that only suckers play by the rules.

Thats not the message we need to be sending right now in this country. We need to be sending a message that the laws apply to all, and that being a good citizen and doing the right thing is what we value and reward in this country. We need to be sending this message to our current citizens, our leaders, our business people, and most assuredly to those who are petitioning to become citizens. If we dont, if we reward disregard for the law and selfish criminal behavior, we should not act surprised when our society begins to break down on all levels.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by brokedown
Unless you are an American Indian you are an immigrant.
With that said, there is a huge difference between an immigrant and an illegal allien. No one faults any person that looks toward the US and strives to come here seeking a better life for themselves. The problem arises with the next thought,

The first act I will do in my new homeland is comit a felony, by entering illegally.

The illegal allien has no respect what-so-ever for this country or her laws.

The illegal allien does not want to contribute to the growth and prosperity of this great land by following the law in becoming a naturalized citizen.

The States will follow AZ example and put a end to this invasion.

And to all who wish to come to the US legally, I say Welcome new American.

Light Up the Darkness



Now say that again, except this time, scream it in German.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by humilisunus
 


I respect your opinion, and agree to an extent.

To clarify, I think multiculturalism should first and foremost and always rely on a gradual assimilation of any minority populace into the majority. And should never be rushed or imposed( I agree with your 1000 year scenario).

My parents were very early civil rights era activists. As such, I was literally raised on southern streets and protest marches. Back THEN, within that movement( which was seen by many whites as a 'forced integration') there were several voices that were pushing for the gradual assimilation of the minority culture into the majority. In fact, it has long been my opinion that Dr. King was more of an advocate of this style of integration. It IS possible to maintain a cultural identity while adapting to the prevalent culture.

Unfortunately, more vocal and extreme activists on both sides of that issue forced and rushed the situation. In so doing, resentment was born, with racism, white guilt, and a devastated black community being the result. Having been there(from a child to a young man), I am convinced without doubt the 1950's-1970's civil rights movement was hijacked and influenced(both sides to be clear) by outside agitators with an agenda.

So while I can agree with the eventual,possibly inevitable multicultural state, I have much less faith in those that govern or influence such matters having our best interest at heart. Let alone in their ability to perform such an undertaking. I would advise we let this play out with as little government/overlord involvement as possible and let a little pseudo-social darwinism dictate events.

That sounds harsh, but I truly feel it would be the best for all involved in the long term.

[edit on 4/24/2010 by Clark Savage Jr.]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:17 PM
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let's let all of them come over...we don't need any more high paying jobs in this country and who wants to be called racist. my job was replaced with a ten dollar an hour, no benefits, latino who could barely speak broken english...it's just the cost of doing business. luckily, i could retire...i guess my 21 dollar an hour job with full benefits was just too much money for the corporation i worked for...based out of texas, by the way. oh...i repaired computers, routers, hubs, set up servers and work stations, cleaned bugs and glitches from software. you know...just your regular diggin' ditches type of work. and plus i turned 50 YEARS OLD!!!!!! ...i should have seen the F. U. writing on the wall, but sadly, i'm not alone.

i know...i should count my blessings that i even had such a worderful job, those 12 hour days, on call nights and weekends, missing all of those stupid family days...yeah i'm so negative now, and probably will never be hired by one of those compassionate, merit-based, loyal companies.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by Retrovertigo
 


Retrovertigo, don't those figures re "our" wealth include the richest Americans? I believe that they surely must. Aside from exploiting illegals for cheap, menial labor- how much do *they* contribute in foreign aid vs how much does the average, middle class citizen. What would that percentage be with the upper 20% removed from that "wealthy nation" status?

The wealthy are insulated from the effects of an illegal immigrant problem- in every way.
It is the average, middle class person who shoulders the effects of crime, on the quality of our children & grandchildren's education and in the long; sometimes dangerous wait times in hospital emergency rooms (people with insurance have to wait for triage just like everyone else).

We are the ones who pay the bulk of the taxes that go to "foreign aid", not just to impoverished countries, but one that is quite well off, too. (I'm sure most of us know which country that is) For those of us who have remained childless, our tax breaks and "write offs" are virtually non existent.

If there is true equality in this country, then everyone should have the same options as everyone else. If the wealthy are able to avoid contributing and to insulate themselves from the ill effects of foreign nationals who have come here illegally, then so should we all. I believe that is the point of the right to be secure in our property and our persons. Or it was.
I wouldn't be surprised to have it argued that we actually don't have- or shouldn't have, that right.

The operative word here is "illegal". If it is acceptable for a foreign national to come into our country- against our laws & by stealth or it is somehow acceptable as long as they are "getting away with it", then by extension, you are also saying that it is acceptable to walk into our private homes, steal our cars- or from our homes, from our places of business- essentially to have their way regardless of any laws our country or society has. And that is exactly what happens. There IS definitely discrimination and bigotry in these ideas. It is just the opposite of what's being argued here. Citizens of the United States have to abide by our laws and social mores. Foreign nationals do not.
Hell, maybe we should all simply denounce OUR citizenship in order to have some chance at being "equal" in the country where we were to be born.

There is an elephant in the room that is rarely mentioned, if at all. It is "reverse" discrimination- in every arena- services AND jobs. I cannot speak for Arizona, New Mexico or California, but I *can* speak for Texas. This has been true on some level for decades. It has come to the point that it is VERY rare when it *doesn't* happen. There is virtually nothing an anglo- most especially an anglo male can do about it. The very people who are supposed to investigate these situations are themselves, other than anglo. I'm sorry if that sounds "bigoted" to you. It is still a fact.
It is in play in people's attitude re Enough is Enough!



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:47 PM
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The vast amount of these threads popping up. Is why ATS should impliment a system to de-star/flag and give a thumbs down in some way.

Really?

I don't support illegals. I supprt human rights and citizens. These "illegal" immigration bills, destroy the rights of legal citizens because they are hispanic.

Why do so many pretend it doesn't. Atleast have the decency to admit you are violating the rights of your fellow citizens, you feel you deserve. In the name of fighting people walking over an invisible border.

Let's talk about our constitutional rights. And why they apply to illegals as well as legals.

Our constitutional rights are a reiteration of our GOD GIVE, NATURAL rights. Our BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS.

So yes, they apply to EVERYONE. Legal or not.

What doesn't apply, is our government ensuring these rights are not violated if you are in the system as a legal citizen.

Sadly you feel that the only way to determine who the constitution applies to, is to break the constitution to determine who it applies to.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Hope you won't mind if I paraphrase for you, Illusionsaregrandeur. A sense of entitlement is the key thing behind most criminal and sociopathic behavior.
Great post!



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