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AZ. All hispanics... Why not all be criminals?

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:36 AM
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reply to post by WWJFKD
 


Hear me. This will NOT stop here. This will lead to police banging on people's doors. You wait and see.

You are taking everything at face value, and it wont be.




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 05:48 AM
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reply to post by dgtempe
 


It is always nice to see you my friend, but if I may be allowed to quibble with a few points on this matter it would be greatly appreciated.

First, no Governor has authority to legislate law and can only sign such legislation into law. At the risk of sounding redundant, I can't stress how important it is to hold all branches of government accountable, and to know the law. What I mean is, a legislature will often times move beyond the bounds of their jurisdiction and attempt to legislate ideas that are not law. When this happens we have an executive branch whose responsibility is to catch this egregious act and veto, failing that there are the courts.

I realize the Governor in this case lobbied for this legislation and herein lies part of the problem. Too often in today's political climate, all three branches of government work in tandem with each other to seize more power rather than acting as a check on each other to keep the distribution of power, that flows directly from the people, balanced.

Where you assert:




Folks, that very same governor, could have passed a law whereby any employer, corporate or private, if hiring an illegal, would get such and such time in jail and fines, and close the business, should they dared hire illegals.


I would suggest that private businesses can not legally be held accountable merely for hiring someone whose only "crime" is their lack of documentation. I have worked diligently to show how all people have the right to life, liberty and happiness, and there is not just cause to punish an employer just because they hired a person who had no documentation. An employers concern is not any legal recognition of existence, but instead a simple bottom line. Any legislative act that hopes to delegate legal authority of enforcement, then turns around and jails those who did not enforce flies in the face of long held jurisprudence that protects government officials from this nonsense, how can it possibly apply to private persons?

As to your assertion of corporations, here you have a stronger point because corporations are not private and as "persons" are merely statutory entities, unlike humans, who need no statute to exist. Thus, regulating these statutory entities is an authority well with in the bounds of government and perhaps your suggestion has more weight in regards to that.




As i said before, if you were to close life in the US and make it impossible to live if you are not LEGAL, they would all go back where they came from.


Forgive my presumption but in my heart I feel this statement only contradicts what is truly in your heart. Let's not make it impossible for anyone to live, let's just make it impossible for anyone attempting to immigrate here illegally to find success with that. Thanks for considering my thoughts. It is always nice to see you.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Janky Red
 





It seems many have assumed I would be for this legislation. I am all for law, and I am not all for legislation that pretends to function as law. This has always been my stance and it will never change. Your O.P. was as sound legal reasoning as one can get, and honestly Janky, if it is law it is self evident, and textual knowledge need not be required. Legislation that needs explanation is, in all likelihood, not law.


On the contrary, I just feared that I went too far out on a limb based upon what I explained earlier. There are few, if any, who can dispatch with your capacity, I literally
thought: "I hope didn't put my foot in my mouth, who can burn me if I did???"
Some of your responses have "hurt" me just reading them, empathetically speaking.

I read many of your posts, but respond to so few because

A. I respect you
B. I don't want to have A diminished by my own humanity, due to what you might say
in response to my lack of a defensible position.

I will say I have never questioned your consistentcy or the ethic intertwined in your
views, clearly you command them.

I do not not find it hard to relate to your sentiment, but I must confess I am often
very confused by the construct of your philosophy. What I mean by this is I feel have to cross reference so many different things to understand your positions. In example;
Endisnighe who says "frell the frelling government" is... simple, fairly universal. In contrast the level of nuance you employ is all contingent upon so many specific, finely honed views and concepts. You allow emotion, but it rarely co mingles with your
outlook and its basis. Yet when you write to me me I understand greatly...
I really don't understand how or why it works this way.

From my dealings here I understand the dysfunction of government, for me, this determination of "to FED or not to FED" varies greatly with each case.

JPZ- I hope you will excuse me... but I realize the hour is weighing upon my typing abilities. I have just INVENTED new words and phrases familiar in ring, yet completely alien to terrestrial Earth. I will quote this post; expand and correct after some shut eye, good morning to you.








[edit on 24-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:14 AM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 





"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of great achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."


~Theodore Roosevelt~

My good friend, you are not at all one of those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat, because you are in the arena. Fear not error, embrace it, as I have seen you do so and expand because of it. Indeed, I have seen our brother End do it, and I have no doubt plenty here have seen me err as well. This site is filled with great writers, but out of that pool of greatness, there are still those who rise to the top, as cream always does. You Janky are a part of that cream!

You know, in regards to invented words, you are in good company, as the Bard himself was quite the inventor of words, and you poetry is worthy of such comparison. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. It is always a pleasure to, hell it is flat out exhilarating to read your words. You do remarkable things with words, and I look forward to reading the next great post from you.

We are in a time where souls such as you and I are needed. We are in a site that facilitates that need. I am proud to virtually stand beside you. Perhaps together we can sort out the horrible mess this world is in.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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American rights only apply to Americans

if your standing on American soil, then an American authority has every right to make sure you are American. after thats been established you then get to enjoy all the benifits and rights bestowed upon Americans.

if your not American then you will not have any rights until you either become an American or get the hell off American soil.


its just like being a member at a GYM.

if your inside the gym, a gym employee has the authority to ask to see your gym membership. members pay in to use the gym, since they are members they have a right to be in there and use the stuff. Just because its possible for someone to sneak into the gym does not make that person a member

and seeing as how you chose to become a member, you should have no problem showing your membership. if thats a problem maybe you should have thought about it before joining, or joined a different gym.

unfortunately the only way to preserve the rights of the rightful is... "foreign until proven American"

[edit on 24-4-2010 by LurkerMan]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by LurkerMan
 







American rights only apply to Americans


If people are going to assume that rights can only be granted by statute, and I am assuming you are one of those people, then it would behoove you to understand the rules of statutory construction. Each and every word must be given significance. I assure you, you will not find a single word in the Constitution that qualifies who gets rights, and makes clear they belong to all people.




ts just like being a member at a GYM.


Existence is like being a member at a gym? Please. While life comes with much exercise, it is far more complex than that.




unfortunately the only way to preserve the rights of the rightful is... "foreign until proven American"


What is fortunate is that the Founders established a Constitutional republic to prevent people like you from abrogating and derogating the rights of People.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:12 AM
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What is fortunate is that the Founders established a Constitutional republic to prevent people like you from abrogating and derogating the rights of People.


so how exactly do we differentiate between who is part of that republic and who is not?

a border.

simply crossing it does not make you part of the republic.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by LurkerMan]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I've seen several posts saying that the governor could have gone after businesses employing illegals. That is apparently in this bill. That it would be a class 3 felony for failing to verify employment and that businesses can be legally entrapped in to hiring what they believe is an illegal. They do appear to be strengthening their ability to cut it off at the source so to speak.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by LurkerMan

What is fortunate is that the Founders established a Constitutional republic to prevent people like you from abrogating and derogating the rights of People.


so how exactly do we differentiate between who is part of that republic and who is not?

a border.


That is a great question and your answer is a good one. Yes! We must protect our borders, but even more importantly we must protect our rights! The problem is not the immigrants themselves, for who among us can rightfully blame another for trying survive, for hoping to build a better life? The problem is and has been a treacherous government.

What good is it to differentiate who is part of a republic if We the People don't take full responsibility for the treachery of the government? We have sacrificed our republic in favor of democracy. We have allowed the sinister ambitions of politicos to usurp our republic in exchange for a hand out. It is time we all grow up and accept responsibility. It begins by handling an out of control government and never by advocating the destruction of any persons rights.

Again great question. Thanks for asking it.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by ararisq
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I've seen several posts saying that the governor could have gone after businesses employing illegals. That is apparently in this bill. That it would be a class 3 felony for failing to verify employment and that businesses can be legally entrapped in to hiring what they believe is an illegal. They do appear to be strengthening their ability to cut it off at the source so to speak.


Yes you are right, it does appear so. However, it is merely an appearance, like a mirage. If we are not careful we can, anyone of us, fall prey to our own delusions. There is in this country, an insidious group of priest class lawyers who love to utter their mystical incantations and blather on and on about how complex law is and how only they can interpret it. As if law needs interpretation. No one needed Newton to show us that gravity existed, we all ready knew this, all Newton did was describe that gravity.

Governments will always try to expand their power base, this is the nature of government. We can either surrender to that nature or we can control it. If we surrender to it, I assure they will control us. I suggest we control them.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Thank you. This immigration thing is dividing this forum, and people who are on the side of the illegals keep on screaming Constitution, but hey, unless you are an American Citizen, by birth or my naturalization, then our American Constitution does not protect you. Period. Want the protection of the Bill of Rights? Easy. Obtain a Visa, take the classes, learn the language of our land. Do it legal. Anything less is a criminal act, plain and simple, and no amount of argument will change that fact.

www.youtube.com...



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by Subjective Truth
 


Wow I completely agree. After the illegals guess who will be next on the list. History has shown that once a law is statute it can be used for reasons other than the original purpose it was drafted for.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Thank you. This immigration thing is dividing this forum, and people who are on the side of the illegals keep on screaming Constitution, but hey, unless you are an American Citizen, by birth or my naturalization, then our American Constitution does not protect you. Period. Want the protection of the Bill of Rights? Easy. Obtain a Visa, take the classes, learn the language of our land. Do it legal. Anything less is a criminal act, plain and simple, and no amount of argument will change that fact.

www.youtube.com...



I have not bothered to watch the youtube link you provided simply because I have read this Constitution that people are screaming about, and the language is clear, and does not in anyway support the assertion that this great document doesn't protect all people. Indeed, it is, in a large part why so many migrate to this land, because they too have read that remarkable document and know that once here, their rights will be protected.

There is a divide over this issue, but not this issue alone. One only needs to read the counter part to the Federalist Papers, that being the aptly named Anti-Federalist Papers, to know that our nation has been a nation deeply divided from the beginning. Slavery existed in this country precisely because of thinking that asserts only a special class of people have rights and others don't. What just man, what good and noble soul would ever advocate such indecency?

The frustrations and anger are real and palpable, but they are just emotions, and I know nothing more fickle than emotions. Reason will never betray us, and even when our emotions seem so overwhelming that reason seems an impossibility, reason dictates this is just not true. We can control our emotions, and we will be a better nation when reasonable minds prevail.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


so what your saying is crossing an imaginary line is what grants us rights?

im pretty sure my ancestors had to do a little more than that when they came from italy.

i understand your problem, but i dont understand your solution.

How do WE THE PEOPLE verify who is part of this republic and who is not?



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 


Guilty until proven innocent applies to US, U.S. Citizens. The one's that were either born here or came here LEGALLY.

Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to you at all?

These are NOT U.S. citizens who broke the law and have some of their rights stripped away temporarily. These are NON U.S. citizens who have NO rights under our constitution. Period.

Our Constitution was written in the 1700's. The problem we have in AZ. didn't exist then. Trying to apply it's principles to our current problem is ludicrous and dangerous IMO.

I hear that they're having riots on the State Capitol grounds now.

Webster's definition of a terrorist:

"Violent or destructive acts commited by a group or groups in order to intimidate a population into granting their demands"

That's EXACTLY what they are doing down there. In the blink of an eye, they went from illegal aliens to terrorists.



Peace






posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by LurkerMan
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


so what your saying is crossing an imaginary line is what grants us rights?

im pretty sure my ancestors had to do a little more than that when they came from italy.

i understand your problem, but i dont understand your solution.

How do WE THE PEOPLE verify who is part of this republic and who is not?



What I am saying is that all people everywhere have inalienable rights. Rights transcend borders and follow the People wherever they go. The Constitution for the United States of America seems to be unique in that it is the only constitution I know of that avoids the arrogance of granting rights and acknowledges that rights pre-exist government. Read the Preamble to the Constitution. The Preamble makes clear that it was the People who Ordained the Constitution that guides our republic. They did not create this government so it could then turn around and create rights, for rights all ready existed, and the Founders in their infinite wisdom understood this.

I do not offer solutions, I am looking for answers. I believe the answer to your last question is that We the People verify who is part of this republic and who is not through citizenship, which is not a right but privilege. There has been much wrongheaded propaganda out there that deigns to frame freedom by the ability to vote. This is nonsense. Voting is not a right, it is a privilege only granted to citizens. It is a privilege that can and has been revoked, rights on the other hand are inalienable.

There are no easy answers, and I have offered what I believe to be answers. I think we must stop taxing the hell out of people so we may then turn around and give this money to whomever wants it. We must demand of our legislatures that they adhere to the rule of law and only legislate law. That law is there to protect rights. Ask yourself, what rights are being protected by this protracted war on drugs? Do you have any idea how many people are in prison in the United States? How can we, with a straight face, call ourselves the "freest country in the world" when per capita we imprison more people than any other nation?

I do not pretend to have the answers, and can only offer what I believe to be viable answers, but it is discussions like this that help us get closer to discovering the answer.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:03 AM
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Our Constitution was written in the 1700's. The problem we have in AZ. didn't exist then. Trying to apply it's principles to our current problem is ludicrous and dangerous IMO


applying its principals isnt an option.

it doesnt matter if the document is 3000 years old and written in an archaic language, we still need to figure out a way to apply it.


the question is how.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


good post.

your right on with all of that, and i agree.

i just think that we as a nation have already established certain criteria for citizenship, and that should be followed.

everybody has the same opportunity to meet that criteria if they so choose. im not aware of anybody being turned down or excluded from that opportunity, and if they are they shouldnt be.

but we the people, choose that criteria and establish the process. once theyve gone through that process they too become part of that "we the people" and have an equal say in shaping that process.

any other way is completely unlawful and not of the people and therefor should not be tolerated.



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by LurkerMan
 


Yes! You are right on! And your question asked of that poster in your post above is yet another great question. How do we honor the rights of People and still protect our borders? The thing is that there are immigration laws in place that are valid, and those who broke those laws, can not expect to use their rights as a "get out of jail" card. By that I mean, once an immigrant who ignored our immigration laws is caught and found guilty of this, deportation is the answer.

It is unfortunate that often times we do not catch this until other crimes have been committed and then we are faced with first housing them in a prison at our expense before deporting. We must protect our borders! Instead we spend too much time spending money on useless legislative acts that only serve to expand a government that has failed us in the simplest of matters. It will not be easy, but reasonable minds will prevail.

What a pleasure to meet you.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 


What makes you think that the illegals have these rights? And for the LEGALS if you had any common sense and patriotism left in that soul of yours, you would step out of the way and help out. If a piece of paper can help separate people who continue to step over our rights, then why would you deny that opportunity. Be a PATRIOT and stand up for your country, we are being destroyed from within. Help combat this ILLEGAL problem and pave the way for future generation. This battle is not easy as every term in the bigot dictionary will be used against us.

Time to take the country back, one ILLEGAL at a time.



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