ok creationists answer me this please

Originally posted by loveguy
Hello,
You ask a good question...
My answer to you is; Jacob and Esau. Esau was covered from head to foot with hair. Is that a genetic mutation, or an act of God, or both? And how are your thoughts pertaining to the possibility that God created evolution? Things don't just happen because some guy named Murphy said so.

Sorry if I come-off kind of rude, I don't mean to.

how about its just a made up story, to help fill out a book to control peoples views on things? george bush says he reads the bible everyday, how many votes do you think he recieved from christians? and no im not knocking bush, just politicians in general i dont think any politician is really a christian regardless of what they say.

i really dont see how a god could just magically create us

id believe aliens made us with advanced tech before i believed in god

could god use evolution? well thiests say he can do anything so i suppose its possible but uinlikely
i am also sorry if i come off as rude, i wasnt trying

reply to post by novastrike81

Many creatures reproduce asexually. Why would animals abandon simpler asexual reproduction in favor of more costly and inefficient sexual reproduction?

You're kind of assuming that evolution is a conscious process and that organisms have intent. These asexual organisms did not decide to evolve into something that produces sexually.

Sexual reproduction is actually quite efficient as it helps increase the gene pool by supporting more genetic variation than asexual reproduction or cell division. For instance an asexually reproductive organism has only the genetic variance within itself to reproduce however sexual reproduction allows for selective breeding and greater genetic variance, the greater the possibility for variance means there is a greater chance of beneficial mutation and therefore a greater chance at survival. However, again, I must stress that this is not a conscious decision but something that developed over millions or billions of years via natural processes.

Asexual reproduction is sort of an upgrade of the cell division practiced by the earliest lifeforms and sexual reproduction further upgrades the system allowing for more genetic variation.

Edit to add: As for your musings on the Universe, we're not sure if it eternal. However one law seems to be working in the favor of the Universe being eternal. Matter and energy cannot be utterly destroyed. You see the Big Bang isn't really the beginning of everything, its merely the earliest point we can trace the Universe back to. Science tells us that about 14 billion years ago all matter and energy in the Universe were on top of each other in a superdense singularity. So that matter and energy has only been changed and spread thin throughout the Universe.

The Universe and life itself are extremely odd and there is no shortage of mystery out there in the Universe. I just know that slapping a "God did it" sticker on something we don't quite grasp or understand doesn't answer the question.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by novastrike81

 

Many creatures reproduce asexually. Why would animals abandon simpler asexual reproduction in favor of more costly and inefficient sexual reproduction?

You're kind of assuming that evolution is a conscious process and that organisms have intent. These asexual organisms did not decide to evolve into something that produces sexually.

Sexual reproduction is actually quite efficient as it helps increase the gene pool by supporting more genetic variation than asexual reproduction or cell division. For instance an asexually reproductive organism has only the genetic variance within itself to reproduce however sexual reproduction allows for selective breeding and greater genetic variance, the greater the possibility for variance means there is a greater chance of beneficial mutation and therefore a greater chance at survival. However, again, I must stress that this is not a conscious decision but something that developed over millions or billions of years via natural processes.

Asexual reproduction is sort of an upgrade of the cell division practiced by the earliest lifeforms and sexual reproduction further upgrades the system allowing for more genetic variation.

Edit to add: As for your musings on the Universe, we're not sure if it eternal. However one law seems to be working in the favor of the Universe being eternal. Matter and energy cannot be utterly destroyed. You see the Big Bang isn't really the beginning of everything, its merely the earliest point we can trace the Universe back to. Science tells us that about 14 billion years ago all matter and energy in the Universe were on top of each other in a superdense singularity. So that matter and energy has only been changed and spread thin throughout the Universe.

The Universe and life itself are extremely odd and there is no shortage of mystery out there in the Universe. I just know that slapping a "God did it" sticker on something we don't quite grasp or understand doesn't answer the question.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Then whats your take on the universe in my second paragraph or are you picking and choosing answers that can be rationalized?

Of course an answer is made after I edit and ask the question; lol.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by novastrike81


Yeah, sorry about the last minute edit

I don't rule out the idea of God. In fact one of my favorite thoughts is that the Universe is God, one big giant consciousness. It fits too:

God is all-powerful = All energy exists within the Universe, therefore All Power.

God is all-knowing = All knowledge exists within the Universe, all knowing.

God is omnipresent = The Universe is everywhere.

Carl Sagan used to say that we are a way the Cosmos can know itself. So maybe that superdense singularity before the Big Bang was alive and self-aware and decided to instigate a Big Bang and see if it couldn't use natural processes to cause life to evolve... Who knows...

All I know is that religion tends to muddle things up and creationism is even less helpful since it ignores all the evidence. I think if there is a God he/she/it wants us to follow the evidence, and if the evidence says evolution than why should we reject what is evidently true in God's own Universe?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


open minded yet skeptical star for you!

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by novastrike81

 

Yeah, sorry about the last minute edit

I don't rule out the idea of God. In fact one of my favorite thoughts is that the Universe is God, one big giant consciousness. It fits too:

God is all-powerful = All energy exists within the Universe, therefore All Power.

God is all-knowing = All knowledge exists within the Universe, all knowing.

God is omnipresent = The Universe is everywhere.

Carl Sagan used to say that we are a way the Cosmos can know itself. So maybe that superdense singularity before the Big Bang was alive and self-aware and decided to instigate a Big Bang and see if it couldn't use natural processes to cause life to evolve... Who knows...

All I know is that religion tends to muddle things up and creationism is even less helpful since it ignores all the evidence. I think if there is a God he/she/it wants us to follow the evidence, and if the evidence says evolution than why should we reject what is evidently true in God's own Universe?

I don't think religion muddles things up so much as the people who follow the religion don't take the Bible for what it is. They try to interpret it the way they think it should fit into their lives by lack of understand or ignorance. Then some try to pass it on to others as fact. Then there are some that just don't understand it, period. I used to follow evolution in high school and argued with creationists back in the day. So I'm not completely ignorant on the subject and willing to reject anything given.

reply to post by novastrike81


very understanding, and pleasant post star for you!

Genesis 1 is a 6 day creation. Genesis 2 is a one "day" meaning "age" creation. In Genesis 1, things are created and made. In Genesis 2, they are formed. Genesis 1 refers to a blueprint, in some other kind of matter, such as dark matter or spiritual matter. Genesis 2 is in real matter, like you and I experience.

The creation of the Earth was made in Genesis 2 in a manner that Adam could watch. He could see the creation of living things, and was given the task of tilling the ground, dressing the garden, and keeping it. Adam was given the breath of life from the mouth of God, unlike other "humans" before him. This gave Adam the ability to understand as we do today, not like an animal. It gave Adam a superior sense of spirituality, and of right and wrong, good and evil. Like other humans, he could make tools and use them. However, he had a morality that set him apart, and his line would be chosen to bring forth the Redeemer. That's why he was wearing a fig leaf: a symbol of Israel, the source of Jesus.

By the way, I would like to add that the other mythological characters that supposedly were the source material for Jesus were not written down until the first century AD and were likely copies of the Christian materials because of the success the Christians were having proselyting new converts.

[edit on 4/24/2010 by Jim Scott]

Well, although the nature of the entire universe is a different subject to the argument between the theory of evolution vs creationism, it always comes up & usually muddies the waters; for lack of imagination imo. From a scientific POV, we can examine the evidence, but what we dont know is if there are, or how many, extra dimensions beyond the spacetime continuum we inhabit. There are mathematical models which suggest there could be.
Worth noting then that, if there are any such, we also dont know how they interact with each other, or with what we do experience. Thus it may be the case that what we experience as expansion of 3D space in linear time is actually only part of what is going on in totality. So then, it is possible that there is a cyclical process of which we are only conscious of a limited part. There is no reason then to doubt that the universe could be eternal. By definition the universe is everything, including any other dimensions. If it is also eternal, then there not only need be no external creator, but couldn't be.
Hey ho, just something to think about. I believe in deity, just not the christian creation myth & whilst the theory of evolution has holes, only the scientific method will prove or disprove what seems like a pretty robust theory. Disregarding the whole body of evidence on the grounds that, so far, there are unknowns wont advance our knowledge.

reply to post by Jim Scott


do you have any proof of this or are you just going to tell me "the bible says so"?

also the whole jesus was a descendent of adam is being debated about by theologinists all the time

you never answered the main question, who are all those other guys?

[edit on 24-4-2010 by ashanu90]

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
Well, although the nature of the entire universe is a different subject to the argument between the theory of evolution vs creationism, it always comes up & usually muddies the waters; for lack of imagination imo.

If the universe ceased to existed there would be no planet Earth and no evolution to take place so it fits in perfectly if you ask me

From a scientific POV, we can examine the evidence, but what we dont know is if there are, or how many, extra dimensions beyond the spacetime continuum we inhabit. There are mathematical models which suggest there could be.

There is no such things as a multiverse, as great an idea it is. It's a great reach to prove a theory that can't support itself outside the realm of this planet.

There is no reason then to doubt that the universe could be eternal. By definition the universe is everything, including any other dimensions. If it is also eternal, then there not only need be no external creator, but couldn't be.

I'll quote myself to make a mute point. By definition, something must be eternal (as we have “something” today and something cannot come from “nothing”, so there was never a time when there was “nothing”). Either the universe itself is eternal, or something/someone outside of and greater than the universe is eternal. We know that the universe is not eternal, it had a beginning (as evidenced by its expansion). Therefore, God (the something/someone outside of the universe) must exist and must have created the universe. Einstein showed that space and time are related. If there is no space there is no time. Before the universe was created there was no space and therefore no concept of time.

Originally posted by ashanu90
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

do you have any proof of this or are you just going to tell me "the bible says so"?

We can't prove that God created Adam and Eve according to Genesis because we weren't there to see it. Likewise, evolutionists can't prove we were around 4.6 billion years ago and that we originated from a single celled organism. Both of these concepts are based off "faith". We can only observe what we can see today and base conclusions off that. Asking for illogical proof just creates drama.

also the whole jesus was a descendent of adam is being debated about by theologinists all the time.

Jesus wasn't a decendent of anyone; he was a decendent of God himself. If you want to be technical he did come out of Mary so I guess you can say he is a decendant of Mary which can be traced back to Noah.

you never answered the main question, who are all those other guys?

I would like to know who these other guys are too. It's quite vague and the only mythical creatures that come to mind are unicorns and dragons which have been explained.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
Well, after watching Old World secrets and New world Bible, I have come to the conclusion that:

A : God in the Bible is Zeus. Zeus also was known as Enlil.
B : God's angels are the Freemasons and other clans/cults/clubs related to them.
C : Neanderthalman was killed by us/them not so long ago.(Unsure when, but according to Old World secrets, Neanderthal last walked the earth at the age of the Aquarius(Age of the destroyer, when Hopi takl of their god coming from the sky.)
D : The other figures I am unsure of who you speak of..
E : Zeus became the God in the Bible when he took the title at the end of the age of the Bull, hance the freemason 'satan' hand signal, that is Zeus/God's handsign along with the Cross....

Long story short, the Zeus's are known today as the Rothchilds family.
The american revolution was a freemason 'false flag' if you will, and was staged to give americans a false history of 'great warriors' so that in the future, you would sign up and go to war with pride.

Etc....Or Im wrong.. What is for sure, is that iwe are approaching the Age of the Water Bearer, the age of the destroyer, and last time was 6500 years ago in the Flood of Noa, that is why 'they' keep on living/surviving, they know when and how and they make us build their safe haven for the next round, and there will be a new world after that, it will be the New World Order with a new religion and new historic lies which will be taught onto our descendants.....That is how it goes. If we were Created by these folks or if they did come from 'out there' ? I have no clue, maybe they are planet jumpers, when Earth is out of resources, they move on to the next one that have been left alone for the thousands of years they have kept us here, etc.......

Or Im just wrong.....

[edit on 23/4/2010 by ChemBreather]

I got your back on this one,

His brother Enki (possibly Poiseden...spelling??) created us in their image. According to the Terra papers Enlil then took over (Giving the God with split personalities) - Enki favoured us, Enlil thought of us as a slave race. Enki gave us Knowledge, this angered Enlil. Enki's character was attacked and mankind is mis-led over Enki's true intentions (To let us prosper) therefore he was eventually portrayed as evil so we wouldn't follow him...Lucifer??

Anyway they created us from all the other homo's (no pun intended) and mankind being mankind probably wiped them out. (or are they still here?...... the bigfoot?)

I was always an evolutionist but recently i am swaying to the ancient alien interferance...dont know why??

...or maybe i'm just waking up???

reply to post by ashanu90
OP:

Pre-Flood man live hundreds of years. Imagine what that long span of time would do to a persons skull bones, and skeleton.

reply to post by ashanu90


Is there a reason you abandoned the previous thread started on this topic and created a new thread?

Since you seem to be such a devout atheist and evolutionist, why do you care about what the creationist think?

Always seems strange to me that it is the evolutionist starting these threads.

I like your post. Good stuff! I believe life after Genesis 1:2 was totally different than before Genesis 1:1. I believe Satans play ground was here before Genesis 1:2 When the earth became without form and void and darkness upon the face of the deep. Satan knows how to manipulate DNA. He was practicing in another age. My opinion.

This is a great thread! As long as it was created with a genuine interest in the arguments involved and not used as a witch hunt for 'intellectual' evolutionists to set fire to those 'stupid' creationists and their 'fairy tales'.

Here's the deal; I believe in God. I also believe that both evolution and the bible tell the same story in different points of the time line. The bible is really a series of history books and letters which, taken out of context, can be interpreted to mean things they don't. However, when read in the appropriate context and combined with other historical texts and compared to science, tell a story that I find undeniable.

I cannot post everything here but this thread (and others) have motivated me to post a thread containing research into validating the bible for you, the skeptics. It's around 2am here so I won't start it now. But I'll be working on it this weekend and hope to post something soon.

Really, science and the bible coincide. It's just about doing the research.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


i realy dont believe any one ever lived past 130
if that
so no in my opinion the neanderthal bones are valid

Originally posted by intjus01
reply to post by ashanu90

 

Is there a reason you abandoned the previous thread started on this topic and created a new thread?

Since you seem to be such a devout atheist and evolutionist, why do you care about what the creationist think?

Always seems strange to me that it is the evolutionist starting these threads.

maybe i enjoy discussion
or maybe i could post this instead?

because

reply to post by ashanu90


Not much of a reason. Seems odd to me and many others who were following the previous thread.

Perhaps you weren't getting the answers you wanted? Easy to avoid when you can't defeat the argument.