SPIRALS, everywhere in the ancient world why ?

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

All your doing is bitching about semantics. Your still defending one opinion whilst bitching about another persons opinion which makes you hypocritical in argument. So chill dude. Two people have differing opinions about the same thing, big deal. Learn to pick your fights and stop stressing over tiny insignificant details.

[EDIT TO ADD]

Unless you have some evidence that the person in question is not being deceptive, then the persons opinion your bitching about is utterly unfounded and meaningless.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by sirnex]

[EDIT TO ADD MORE]

Since we're bitching about semantics, fraud also means:

"something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage "

In which case, the person in question could be correct in opinion as the party in question would have reputation to gain with like minded peoples, which would be advantageous to him for many reasons.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by sirnex]

and it seems we are back to full circle. Someone asked Stereologist to prove that the individual in question was a fraud. he did not.

All i was getting at was telling the reader that Stereologist was using wording that was embellishing, apparently in lieu of providing already requested facts.

Now, we can drag this out further, or we can all just agree that, until someone proves that this person PURPOSEFULLY MEANT TO DECEIVE, he is not a fraud.

It seems that we are calling someone a liar without anyone providing any proof that he lied. And then you want to support that argument?

ATS ignorance squad, indeed!

ETA: Stereologist, if you would provide some evidence that shows that Lucus has knowingly deceived on this, I would be happy to see it. Since you are the one throwing out the fraud term, the burden of proof lies with you. At least show something that supports your assertion. Persistance of insistence is not proof of anything.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


-OR- since your delving into hypocrisies, you could produce evidence that he is not a fraud.

Your still bitching about one person's opinion of another persons opinion. Seriously, it makes you look uneducated when you argue semantics whilst defending another through semantics.

Essentially, it's a baseless argument without any meaning.

Your arguing for the sake of argument using personal belief as a defense mechanism.

reply to post by sirnex


Well, you DO realize that you are bitching about my opinion of his opinion of that guys opinion, right?

Uneducated would be demanding that I prove a persons innocence. That just ain't how it works. The burden of proof lies on the accuser. It seems that the Accuser in this case chose to dodge his burden of proof, at which point i called him on it.

Now I have you defending this? All the while calling me a hypocrite for doing exactly what you are doing?

Yeah, I am done with you. I certainly have identified a member of the ATSIS.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Well, you DO realize that you are bitching about my opinion of his opinion of that guys opinion, right?

Not at all, bitching implies a negative tone in context, which your post's convey readily. My replies are observational in nature.

Uneducated would be demanding that I prove a persons innocence. That just ain't how it works. The burden of proof lies on the accuser. It seems that the Accuser in this case chose to dodge his burden of proof, at which point i called him on it.

Actually, burden of proof lies not only upon both parties, but also third parties in defense of the opinion. Seeing as how your a third party to one opinion, you should show a mediocre of maturity in defense of that opinion rather than bitching blindly in favor of said opinion.

Now I have you defending this? All the while calling me a hypocrite for doing exactly what you are doing?

Please quote where I am defending explicitly one opinion over the other. All I have done is ask you to chill in your defense of one opinion over another. If you don't understand context then I will be more than happy to point you to a plethora of sites that can teach you context.

Yeah, I am done with you. I certainly have identified a member of the ATSIS.

No, you are not done with me *yet* as is my experience with people as bull headed as you are. You will most certainly want the last word for your own ego.

I readily await your impending reply as I will most likely receive one

I've been noticing something for about the last 6 months. When I lie down to go to sleep, in the darkness I "see" there is a white spiral spinning like a hypnotic pattern. I didn't think much of it at first but after it kept happening, I started looking around for info on spirals.

I've noticed in may of the petroglyphs there are spirals alone but in others there seems to be many common other images with them. Goats, dogs, a person(s), and then in some all those symbols are accompanied by a handprint. There seems to be a reason, it isn't doodling out of boredom. A lot of the pics usually seem to indicate something happening in life or a representation of something important. After the Norway spiral and what I've been seeing + some ancient petroglyphs, I'd say it means something more on an awareness or spiritual level.

There could be many things they represent as others have pointed out.

-marking water or location for something
-geometry to show they know mathematics/nature
-knowledge of spiral galaxies
-left over symbol from ancient world they may not know the meaning of
-art
-perhaps in those days spirals (like Norway) appeared in sky frequently and they were recording the "events"
-marking a spot of a "vortex" for astral travel or inbound travellers
-in The Revelation of John (Bible) it refers to the heavens parting like a scroll which could coincide with the double spirals. Perhaps a celestial/atmospheric anomaly?

I'm sure the list could go on and on.

reply to post by dreampsi

perhaps in those days spirals (like Norway) appeared in sky frequently and they were recording the "events"

There weren't many ballistic missiles being fired over the White Sea back in those days.

While meditating recently, i came across a concept relating to the spiral.

In meditative exercise, one usually begins with the physical. Relax the physical body, calm the firing of the nerves, etc. Reduce those distractions to the greatest degree possible.

But when you have acheived this, and begin to calm the mind, the spiral shape begins to make some sense in a shamanistic sort of way. The sensation you receive is of downward, circling, spiral in motion.

Often you find spirals in caves where rituals were performed. Often, in paganism, these rituals involved drugs and repetitive sound. The same types of things that induce meditative states.

Perhaps the spiral is a reference to this state? A "holy" symbol referencing the door to the meditative world?

On the Ancient Aliens specials, it appears that the spiral form of art is very common among most Native American tribes. Last week's episode showed where one spiral was used to mark the sun during the seasons. Other shows showed artwork on the side of a mountain that belonged to a different tribe, and the same spiral showed up.

While it could still be attributed to artistic merit, the uses of it for astronomy are quite interesting, as galaxies are spirals.

reply to post by kidflash2008


Spiral galaxies are not visible to the naked eye as spirals.

Here are some of the better known spiral galaxies and their magnitudes. The brightest of these is M31 which can be seen as a faint smudge on moonless nights. It's spiral nature is not discernable to the naked eye.
M31 is 3.4 the Andromeda galaxy
M33 is 5.7
M51a is 8.4
M63 is 9.3
M101 is 7.9

List of naked eye galaxies

It's a good idea, but doesn't pan out.

reply to post by stereologist


i do know the spiral galactic shapes are invisible to the naked eye. Either they had some form of primitive telescope, or they were told from another source about the shape of the galaxies.

Or it is a very interesting coincidence. Either way, this is one area that needs to be looked at as the Native Americans had many spiral shapes in relation to astronomic temples.

reply to post by kidflash2008


I think you are barking up the wrong tree so to speak in connecting spiral galaxies to spiral petroglyphs. You think that a civilization that could not make glass or metal was making telescopes? I don't think that sounds realistic. Spirals in my limited reading appear to be connected with water and spiritual matters. They do not appear to be connected to observations of nature. What is also interesting is that petroglyphs appear to be recent as in the last 1200 years with a marked stoppage associated with the appearance of Europeans. The most famous spirals are associated with a single slab at Chaco Canyon. Those are a few of many of these shapes.

reply to post by stereologist


Author Robert Temple has written several books where he shows that the ancients did in fact use telescopes (or telescopic devices). If they did travel to the Americas (another possibility), they probably brought the technology with them. Many museums have such eye pieces in them, and they are usually stated as being baubles or decorative pieces.

The depiction of spirals and astronomical sites are quite common in the Americas. I am only bringing this up as an interesting point, not saying they did observe galaxies through these telescopes. It is only a possible theory that I find interesting. Could the spirals be just artwork, or did the Native Americans use crystals as telescopes to gaze at the stars?

reply to post by kidflash2008


The claim that these are lenses is debatable. Even if the glass pieces are lenses there is no evidence that these were used in a telescope. This is at best a fringe claim. To say his claims are a fact is stretching things a bit.

Well since many of theses civilizations studies about the cosmics and the stars, would the spiral symbol represent our "Milky Way Galaxy"?. Just look at our images of our Galaxy, its a spiral galaxy. By doing this symbol, they not only mean to represent their "people" but the Galaxy as a whole...

reply to post by FolipLA


No ancients knew about galaxies. The spiral cannot be assocaited witht he Milky Way galaxy or any other galaxy since that is a new concept.

here is a short video of "Little Grandmother" with info about spirals: www.youtube.com...

After watching the video Spirals I cecked if this really happened in December 2009 in Norway and found this wikipedia entry. So looks like this spiral sighting really happened

reply to post by Fenrin


The claim is that the spiral is the oldest ancient symbol. Is that true? No. The petroglyphs shown in the video are often in the range of 1500 years old. That is not old. There is older writing in Sumer.

The claim that everyone has the same symbol is false. The claim that we know the meaning of the spiral is also false. Only cultures with writing allow us to learn the meaning in ancient times. The discussion simply tells us the modern interpretation, not the old meaning.

For example, the video talks about the Hopi meaning of the spiral yet it shows an image of what is probably an Anaszi spiral. That is deception since the Hopi and Anasazi cultures are different.

If you listen, you learn that at best the spiral has some sort of religious meaning. All of the descriptions are substantially different.

The claim that all cultures saw something that inspired the spiral is nonsense. Nothing shown leads to that conclusion. Why doesn't the video discuss other common symbols that are found in many ancient pictographs and petroglyphs? The reason is simple. The video has a preconceived notion of what they want to prove.

The claim that they did not communicate is true. The claim that they did not teach each other is simply a form of communication. This does not imply that anyone saw anything.

Then the claim that the world has seen the spiral is again a false claim. The world did not see the spiral. The world has learn of the spiral through photographs. Are we to assume using the same bad logic of this video that the ancients had cameras and disseminated the images through the time honored methods of smoke signals and jungle drums? NO.

The Norway spiral was a failed ICBM launch visible to an incredibly small part of the world for a very short period of time. It was not globally visible. To claim this was the type of event viewed all over the world and seen by all cultures is at a minimum ridiculous. A global event would have to be something other than an atmospheric event seen in Norway - only a small portion of Norway for a few minutes. It would have to be far away and last 24 hours so that everyone would have a chance to see and record it.

The video is a poorly constructed mess.

reply to post by stereologist

The claim is that the spiral is the oldest ancient symbol. Is that true? No. The petroglyphs shown in the video are often in the range of 1500 years old. That is not old. There is older writing in Sumer.

ok the spiral is not the oldest symbol. This video comes obviously not from an scientist. Nevertheless this very old symbol is widely spreaded througout the whole world. I don't know the age of the spiral as a symbol, the video shows a spiral with ca. 3000 BC.

The claim that everyone has the same symbol is false.

OK but many cultures around the globe have/had the same symbol and noone knows exactly why. The world tree which is also a very ancient symbol accross several cutures is easier to understand.

The claim that we know the meaning of the spiral is also false. Only cultures with writing allow us to learn the meaning in ancient times. The discussion simply tells us the modern interpretation, not the old meaning.

We can know the meaning of the spirals either because they still exist or because they or someone else wrote about it, but like you said in other cases researchers interpret their meaning.

For example, the video talks about the Hopi meaning of the spiral yet it shows an image of what is probably an Anaszi spiral. That is deception since the Hopi and Anasazi cultures are different.

lol I don't understand why it is so important to use a hopi spiral, when noone of the mainstream people know the difference. But nevertheless I looked around in the web where this picture comes from and found this Spanish blog: The picture with this spiral is below the title "La espiral y el color azul para los Indios Hopi". Maybe you are wrong or if you think you are right: Can you show us typical Hopi and Anasazi spirals if this difference is so important to you?

If you listen, you learn that at best the spiral has some sort of religious meaning. All of the descriptions are substantially different.

If I listen I hear that it is the most sacred of symbols to every indigenous culture. Therefore I would rather say it has some sort of spiritual meaning. There is a difference between religion and spirituallity.
IMHO the meaning of the spirals is overall quite similar.

The claim that all cultures saw something that inspired the spiral is nonsense. Nothing shown leads to that conclusion. Why doesn't the video discuss other common symbols that are found in many ancient pictographs and petroglyphs? The reason is simple. The video has a preconceived notion of what they want to prove.

Of course it cannot be scientific proven I don't know how this would be possible. With a time machine perhaps?

Then the claim that the world has seen the spiral is again a false claim. The world did not see the spiral. The world has learn of the spiral through photographs. Are we to assume using the same bad logic of this video that the ancients had cameras and disseminated the images through the time honored methods of smoke signals and jungle drums? NO.

The spiral sighings occured not only in norway but also in china, australia and several other countries in 2009. But I agree that not nearly everyone was aware of such sightings.

The Norway spiral was a failed ICBM launch visible to an incredibly small part of the world for a very short period of time. It was not globally visible. To claim this was the type of event viewed all over the world and seen by all cultures is at a minimum ridiculous. A global event would have to be something other than an atmospheric event seen in Norway - only a small portion of Norway for a few minutes. It would have to be far away and last 24 hours so that everyone would have a chance to see and record it.

Any rational explanation had to be found. How can we know for sure that every spiral sighting was because of any failed missle launch. But this is a good point and a few people claim that missles can look like such sightings.

The video is a poorly constructed mess.

IMHO it's nevertheless quite interesting and inspiring.

reply to post by Fenrin


So the video shows spirals that are not as old as the oldest known writing which comes from Sumer. Like I stated. The video makes claims which are not true. The spiral symbol claims are not as old as writing. Symbols should be older than writing.

The claim that everyone has the same symbol is false. Just because it looks a little similar does not mean it is the same symbol. The video shows concentric circles mixed in with spirals. Some symbols in the video are not spirals.

OK but many cultures around the globe have/had the same symbol and noone knows exactly why.

There are lots of ideas about why the symbols might be similar. There are many shapes which appear to be hard wired into our brains. These symbols include sets of parallel lines and spirals.

Maybe you are wrong or if you think you are right: Can you show us typical Hopi and Anasazi spirals if this difference is so important to you?

The issue is where they are in context with other images. The Anasazi were responsible for much of the petroglyphs in the Southwest. The culture existed before the culture of the Hopi. The Anasazi culture ends by 1300AD. Most petroglyphs are produced by that time. The Pueblo groups are likely to have descended from this culture. The Hopi are an example of the descendants. Fewer petroglyphs were created after 1000AD.

By assigning the petroglyph as Anasazi the petroglyph is simply being placed in its cultural context and more likely age.

IMHO the meaning of the spirals is overall quite similar.

So if one culture sees it as a very sacred symbol of the womb and another culture sees it as a very sacred representation of the heavens you think that's similar. I certainly do not.

Of course it cannot be scientific proven I don't know how this would be possible. With a time machine perhaps?

It's not a matter of proving or evidence. The suggestion that all of these different cultures saw an event is just a ludicrous speculation. It seems unfounded given the nature of the evidence presented in the video. Is it people sized as in the womb or gigantic as in the size of the universe? Was it concentric circles or a spiral?

The spiral sighings occured not only in norway but also in china, australia and several other countries in 2009.

Any rational explanation had to be found. How can we know for sure that every spiral sighting was because of any failed missle launch.

All of the events were failed rocket launches. The Norway launch was announced by the Russians. A no fly - no sail order went out the day before. A Russian submarine launched an ICBM that failed. They said so. That series of ICBMs had a large number of failed launches. The other spirals were also failed rocket launches. It was these other failures that demonstrated that all of the events were failed launches.

The video is a mess. I do not consider the video to anything other than a mess since its content is wrong or downright deceitful.

Originally posted by King Loki

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by King Loki

 

Where are they finding pyramids under the ocean? Can you direct us to such a find?

I've been 2 many pyramid sites in Central America and to the ones in Egypt. The pyramids do not look the same. The construction is different. Even as a novice observer I could see that.We happen to use the same word.

AS we look around we might think that two similar things might be related, but it is often a coincidence. People are good at looking for patterns. We can see patterns where none exist.

The pyramids don't have to look the same, the point is they are all pyramids, obviously culture and personal taste would have played a part in the building of them ... to say it didn't would be silly when obviously so much time and effort went into building them. How could cultures all around the world be building the same thing by accident, that doesn't seem plausible, not even a little bit plausible, there has to be an explanation.

They were found under the ocean between japan and Thailand, im pretty sure there is tonnes on the net if you look for it. They have also found pyramids in Bosnia twice the size of the Egyptian pyramids.

But thats an idea i have for another thread so i wont go to far into it.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by King Loki]

[edit on 24-4-2010 by King Loki]

Hi KL. I haven't read beyond your mentioning of Bosnian pyramids. According to wikipedia, they are a hoax, and not man made. Is this something that's being covered up? They say a hoaxer is running about excavating there, unrestrictedly, which sounds quite odd. It sounds unnatural for a man made pyramid to have been covered like a mountain by natural means. I should think it would be ravaged by time, rather than having mass added to it, unless the geography was situated in a unique way.

Any word, your thoughts?