SPIRALS, everywhere in the ancient world why ?

The plot you showed is a plot of the position of the sun. It is drawn on a plot to represent the coordinates in the sky. The shadow produced by a pole connects the sun to a point on a plane. At sunrise the shadow begins at infinity in the west and travels across the paper until at sunset the shadow extends to infinity in the east. For points north of the Tropic of Cancer the path always swings north of the pole unless the sun does not set. That's what happens in Romania.

Making the inference that the lines must connect is hard to do because the lines go in different directions and extend to infinity. Or the pole tracking could be done to only capture part of the progress of the shadow and then the ends could be artificially connected with a path of the user's choice. In that case why do the pole experiment?

Unless the sun does not set you can't get a 'spiral'. If you are north of the Arctic circle in summer, then the sun does not set. Then the shadow does not extend to infinity. A plot could be drawn.

But the claim about an artist and wood and a lens is junk.

There were a few spirals shown on the Zuni peoples' land in the episode of "Ancient Aliens: The Visitors". They were the usual types of spirals and were carved out of the mountain rock.

I am wondering if the spirals are more than just an artistic expression. I do know they see spirals in seashells and other parts of nature including spider webs. This is one subject I am going to do more reading up on.

reply to post by stereologist


well good sense says that we start recording the shadow when we can see the tip of the pole on the ground... i think infinity isn't really something we need to consider here is it?

here is a pot... not the pic i was looking for but its a start
top left


if he ever actually did the experiment i honestly think he chose a lense because otherwise he would have to sit there like the biggest dolt in the world and mark dots on something all day long for weeks and weeks and noone would believe there is a dolt big enough in the world.

Here's some perspective...
this guy believes our ancestors were trying to warn us about the armageddon, 2012 n' all that jazz...outlandish? ..maybe , but hell it kinda freaked me!
Lucus at Brave New Books 1/27/2010

Lucus is a fraud. You can see this for yourself. Listen to him describe things such as petroglyphs and their meaning. Then he says he is giving just facts and you draw your own conclusions. He has already drawn conclusions by suggesting certain shapes are death or dying and then makes the inference that spirals are associated with death.

Again Lucus is a fraud.

Well I cudnt find much abt him..so i wouldn't kno..whats his last name? I think i need do a lil' research on him..

If its not true, then sorry about the post to the link with the artist that did the experiment and formed a double spiral. I was doing some searching on the net for spirals and the like and came across that site. I tried to find some images of his experiment but could not find any - but posted the link and summary on here as it was a striking statement if true. If it is debunked then thanks for quickly correcting that error.

reply to post by ratboy


I think it is a good post. It certainly shares information you found. Just because someone else misrepresented what the artist did does not take away from the artist did do which was to provide a graphic demonstration of the movements of the sun.

I've done my share of posting information that turned out to be incorrect. It's always interesting to get a second pair of eyes to look over things.

Hello,
My first post on this most esteemed forum, greetings.
I am a dowser,
There is a detectable matrix that conforms in measure and in geometry to the fibonacci sequence.
The matrix is in my opinion composed of phase conjugate time reversed laser beams.
travelling along these carrier beams is plasma in a duality of polarity.
The spirals in various geometries are where the resonant plasma flow compress into creation of 3D matter/mass.
All is ONE, fibonacci is king.
I just spiralled in here to say this.
Kevin.b

reply to post by King Loki


I didn't read through the whole thread, so IDK if this was posted already...

I've read before that the spirals supposedly show an electric phenomena described by proponents of the electric universe theory. Personally, I think the ancients drew spirals just because it's both easy and fun and there was no intended real meaning behind them other than decorative. I used to draw spirals before I even knew they were spirals, that doesn't mean however that I drew spirals because I had some deep insights.

Moral of the story: Sometimes a spiral is just a spiral.

Sirnex sometimes a spiral is maybe a psychedelic dream. Here's an idea on why certain geometric shapes appear across cultures.

Ancient Altered States

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by King Loki

 

I didn't read through the whole thread, so IDK if this was posted already...

I've read before that the spirals supposedly show an electric phenomena described by proponents of the electric universe theory. Personally, I think the ancients drew spirals just because it's both easy and fun and there was no intended real meaning behind them other than decorative. I used to draw spirals before I even knew they were spirals, that doesn't mean however that I drew spirals because I had some deep insights.

Moral of the story: Sometimes a spiral is just a spiral.

That is true, and a good point. However, if you view it from the standpoint of Mazlow, it would seem that at the time that these ancient spirals were created, life was not really that easy. It would not be presumed that the people who drew them were prone to having the luxury of time to sit and doodle by carving into hard stone.

When you talk about a hunter gatherer culture in such a primordial developmental state, do you think that there are folks in the groups that have the time to sit and carve spirals into rock as just a fun activity meant to wile away the hours? Would it not be more reasonable that the lifestyle of trying to survive was not conducive to frivolity? All actions were meant to mean something, meant to drive some sort of compelling behavior.

Those spirals are not just doodles. Not by a long shot. Not unless we can find evidence that these people were able to achieve a lifestyle which would allow for a life of any level of luxury.

reply to post by stereologist


Interesting article, and I suppose in some cases that perhaps some spiral art was induced under hallucinogenic drugs and may have represented portals of sorts.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Yet a bunch of those pictures show spirals on rock built buildings. How would they not have the time to draw decorative spirals on the buildings they had time to build? Not all of the spirals have to be induced under drugs in order to be drawn.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


That is true, and a good point. However, if you view it from the standpoint of Mazlow, it would seem that at the time that these ancient spirals were created, life was not really that easy. It would not be presumed that the people who drew them were prone to having the luxury of time to sit and doodle by carving into hard stone.

there was some spare time back in the day....

"Time Magazine 13th Feb 1995

The technology of the dominant form of bead production at Sungir was clearly a variation on the Aurignacian assembly-line approach to ivory bead manufacture discussed earlier. However, at Sungir the blanks were scored across the width of each face before the hole was drilled. This caused the beads to fall into a visually impressive interlocking pattern when strung. In other words, the desired esthetic effect was deeply embedded in even the earliest stages of production.

Experiments reveal that each of the ivory beads at Sungir took more than an hour to fabricate. Hence, the man's beadwork took more than 3,000 hours, while that of each child took more than 5,000. Considering additional objects placed on and alongside the corpses, it is clear that each of the childrens' burials had substantially more labor invested in it than that of the man. Based on the differences in grave offerings and labor investment revealed among these burials, we might be justified in inferring that the social system represented at Sungir was an internally differentiated one in which social position was inherited rather than achieved; suggesting that complex social systems arose prior to and independent from economic systems based on agricultural production."



sungir

It is believed that the petroglyphs of Petroglyph National Monument near Albuquerque predominantly date after 1380 and before 1680. They were made during a time known as Pueblo IV, which was a productive time and offered the people time to produce petroglyphs.

reply to post by Parta



Obviously there has been increasing amounts of leisure time in mans life over the ages. It allows us to ponder and dream.

But to say that someone would invest 3000 hours into a decorative piece might be presumptive. I would posit that this piece had meaning. Either that, or composed of scraps and pieces from other works of other people (scrap and salvage).

But it is interesting to remember this.

One thing i have heard of that is interesting to ponder is the concept of the bicameral mind, whereby the two hemispheres act independantly causing the conscious man to believe he is in contact with God. The logical functions recieve "seepage" of thought from the abstract hemisphere, creating the far ancient mans mindset. It is interesting to ponder, be it true or not.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


i have never read it being suggested that the beads were collected as they are uniform apparently [made from straightened mammoth tusk]. the term "King of Sungir" has been tossed around as has "the giant of Sungir".

it is quite a popular misconception that hunter gatherers had a hard time. they only had to "work" a few hours a day and that "work" happens to be what we do for leisure today [hunt, fish...]. the rest of the time was spent "goofing off" as mr julian siggers likes to say.

if there is no catastrophe its a great life but there is enough evidence for catastrophe that many anthropologists call the paleolithic / mesolithic transition a "great dumbing down".

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Yet a bunch of those pictures show spirals on rock built buildings. How would they not have the time to draw decorative spirals on the buildings they had time to build? Not all of the spirals have to be induced under drugs in order to be drawn.

Those buildings are very contemporary when compared to the artwork of the paleolithic Cro Magnon..

The Cro Magnon was a contemporary of the Neandertal. It is difficult to find a Neandertal skeleton that doesn't have a few healed bone breaks. The people of this time lived a very, very rough and tough life. While i am sure that they had some actions that were ancillary to pure survival, i would posit that these activities were kept to a minimum in variety, and that they had meaning to the people who performed them.

I don't see aesthetics as being of prime importance to a person who has to get up and find a meal every single day. Have you ever gone hunting? It isn't like you just go to the store and pick out a juicy rabbit. And the animals during the paleolithic were not the docile moo cow of today.

reply to post by Parta


this is something i completely agree with. The evidence for a Younger Dryas impact event on the northern ice shelf is profound. The evidence, from what i can tell, shows that there were several impact events, with the primary being on the ice shelf itself. Perhaps this is the source of the flood myth? Who knows...but the "dumbing down" you mention likely has happened multiple times.

Which is kind of my whole point...that the concept of Mazlow's Hierarchy needs to be kept in mind during this discussion. it is hard to know the mindset of people living right now in a different nation. The variation in mentality in current times is amazing. One can only imagine how foreign the mindset of ancient man must be for us.