ATS Deny Ignorance, Well only when we feel like it.

Hey ATS. After seeing this thread www.abovetopsecret.com... soar to the front page I am completely baffled as to how so many members (respected ATS'ers included) could take information from a BLOG and take it as fact without digging any deeper.

I always hear people toting around ATS saying deny ignorance yet there are certain threads where that motto gets completely thrown out the window.

Not only was that particular thread topic posted a day earlier but it was also shown that the information on the blog was nothing more than a rumor.

"The author of video was not killed - it was a rumor. Via web forum in Smolensk we contacted a person who claims - author of the video is a guy who works at the auto service near by to the site of the tragedy. User Aml says he is alive and nothing has happened to him. It appears that the info about 'Adrij Mendierej death' was an internet rumor. We apologize for bringing the false information in" - wolnemedia(dot)net

I know I'll probably get flamed for this but that's fine with me. So what is it ATS deny ignorance or only when we feel like it.

Any thoughts?

[edit on 23-4-2010 by TV_Nation]

reply to post by TV_Nation


I too am very suspect until I see a legitimate source of information.

reply to post by TV_Nation


I very much agree with you, there was a similar post on the same topic I think and I was asking for a verifiable link.

There's a few other threads going on that have similar "issues" with them at the moment too, I know kids are starting to go on leave for exams, it's getting to that time of year.

Also, you're using an ATS example for your OP - is this considered a credible source of information

Humour intended.

Just my 2 cents...

But I don't understand why sources that should be used as verify to prove whatever theory turns out to be a blog. I don't get it. I've seen a few threads where I don't even read beyond the first page because the source cited at the beginning is a blog, i.e. not a credible source.

Originally posted by TV_Nation
Hey ATS. After seeing this thread www.abovetopsecret.com... soar to the front page I am completely baffled as to how so many members (respected ATS'ers included) could take information from a BLOG and take it as fact without digging any deeper.

I always hear people toting around ATS saying deny ignorance yet there are certain threads where that motto gets completely thrown out the window.

Not only was that particular thread topic posted a day earlier but it was also shown that the information on the blog was nothing more than a rumor.

"The author of video was not killed - it was a rumor. Via web forum in Smolensk we contacted a person who claims - author of the video is a guy who works at the auto service near by to the site of the tragedy. User Aml says he is alive and nothing has happened to him. It appears that the info about 'Adrij Mendierej death' was an internet rumor. We apologize for bringing the false information in" - wolnemedia(dot)net

I know I'll probably get flamed for this but that's fine with me. So what is it ATS deny ignorance or only when we feel like it.

Any thoughts?

[edit on 23-4-2010 by TV_Nation]

Very well said. I also thank you for the update on the alleged Mendierej killing.

People will believe exactly what they want to believe. It's a matter of how forceful they are with their opinion and how much that opinion is substantiated with verifiable information. If someone is being forceful with something they believe to be true, AND are backing it with reams of credible information and are still facing tremendous opposition, then I would say they should be as forceful as they feel necessary. If you believe you have stumbled onto the truth of a matter AND have loads of evidence to back up that claim be it documentive or experienctial and even the "conspiracy theorists" are calling you crazy or "unamerican" or socialist or whatever, then...it's information warfare...fight.

However, if someone is being forceful with their opinion using only ad hominem, hearsay, and strawman arguments...well...that can earn that person a flame from me, and possibly lose their credibility forever.

It seems that most people are more interested in maintaining and defending their personal fantasy of "how bad" or "how good" everything is without being able to see anything in the middle. Everyone likes to talk about "what side of the fence they"re on" but no one wants to accept as valid the position of not even being in the field separated by that fence, but up on the hillside nearby watching both sides of the fence from a distance.

Nope, it seems as if no one fact checks, hell there are many who don't bother reading their own sources!

I've lost count of the amount of times when I have pointed out flaws or misinformation of sources or theories and the only reply I get from the OP of these threads is cries of disinfo agent or shill or whatever.

I didn't realise that critical thinking was so difficult...

I've only been a member for a short while and i have already seen a trend for this sort of thing happening.

I have also seen examples of people asking for verification of sources etc. being called dis-info agents, mainly it seems because they are not blindly following along with everyone else.

I always like to say, if there's no proof, it's not the truth!

Also, if someone doesn't believe your OPINION, then tough, if you can't prove it, they have no reason to!
If you provide convincing proof and they still don't believe, then more fool them!

I find it even more baffling that people think bloggers are all ignorant liars.
Perhaps they don't feel the need to cite sources for their readers.
Honestly, they just throw their theories and opinions out there for public consumption and feedback, just like we all do here.
This is coming off as another hate thread towards ATS and it's motto..and it's tiring and been done a million times.
Denying ignorance is up to you.
If you want sources or more info..GO FIND THEM.
Deny ignorance doesn't mean ATS hands you all the answers to everything on a silver platter.
User generated content. You are just as much of a user as anyone else.
Do you have all the answers?
"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life"
ATS teaches you how to fish.

I can agree with this as well. There's nothing if there isn't freedom of thought, speech, and expression.

I could never say that it is the fault of ATS or the Mods or anything else having to do with the site itself, it's T&C's, moderation or anything like that.

It IS up to the individual to search for sources of verification. Many, many people do not. EVEN if provided with links, they simply won't go to them.

This is not a problem with the board, nor a complaint about the board in any way. I think the OP's intent (forgive my presumptions, if wrong about this OP and feel free to flame me out of existence) was to point out the irony of people claiming to "Deny Ignorance" (as per the site motto) while actively, and sometimes arrogantly insisting on their own ignorance couched in subjective "truths."

IE: foot stamping huffing statements of "I'm right because I say so and I'm right. I don't have to prove anything to you. I know I'm right because I know I'm not wrong. You have to believe me or you're going to (insert any undesirable state or condition here)"

It's an individual thing, not a site thing.

Remember the old "phone game?" Sometimes, it feels like the world of online information sharing through alternative and open sources and forums and blogs and whatnot is kind of like a gigantic version of that.

Say one thing, and by the time it comes back 'round to you it is something really weird.

there is a good potential for someone to do a deeper investigation into conspiracys to commit disinfo -againt- governmental entities.

Would be interesting to see who is behind this..a worldwide effort to destablize large governments and create false populous rage.

Was it just to up a blog hit, or is there something else...perhaps Georgia is trying to stir up trouble...

I suppose all of the posts that read:

-- We need more confirmation...
-- This is a blog, any news site sources...
-- Easy now...not sure if this is true yet....


Somehow escaped you?

Flagging a story can sometimes mean you simply want to follow it. It was an interesting story and remained speculative until someone could find more credible and concrete information.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with taking an interest to a story before knowing the hard facts. Sometimes it takes widespread interest to dig to the bottom of the story.

In this case, perhaps because so many people on ATS were digging for the truth, we were able to find it. Had the thread been ignored, there would still be a number of people believing it to be true. Now, we ALL know it's a hoax.

This doesn't apply to all threads, some are obvious hoaxes from the beginning and some members just like to keep them going anyway, however I don't think that was the case this time. Just my 2 cents.

you forget that the MSM doesnt cover everything, if anything unless there is no way not to cover it. therefore you HAVE to look for alternative news sources wether they are blogs or whatever, that is what ATS is ALL about. its an alternative information site. where you WILL find information that you WONT find in the MSM. its the whole point of ATS. that is what denying ignorance is. accepting everything, denying nothing. and ***k the MSM...

[edit on 23-4-2010 by TheCoffinman]

I have found:

Much of any blog on the web is opinion.

Much of this opinion is based upon speculation.

Much of this speculation is based upon other blogs.

Much of these other blogs are based upon hear say at a water cooler.

Much of this hear say is based upon a blog which was only half read by "the best informed worker in the office".

Do we see a pattern forming or what?

I hope I may have helped in some small way to further cloud the atmosphere. Let it never be said that I have not done my part!!!!

S&F for pointing some fallacies out!

You know what gets me about ATS is that in order to totally, properly and officially "deny ignorance" as the ATS motto states, it is necessary to handle all topics to find the proper neutral ground or the closest facts to the truth. Naturally by denying ignorance there would not be a topic we would not discuss, debate, research and conclude on right?

WRONG!

You all know of "certain" topics of interest that will get you in deep doo-doo or immediately banned. Now tell me this, is blissfully ignoring these certain topics due to outside perspective of ATS really denying ignorance? Is conforming to the ignorant outside views of these "topics" or completely ignoring them not ignorant itself? I find it so ironic that the motto of ATS completely cancels itself out and brings to attention that, as a matter of fact, they are fully embracing ignorance on those "banned and taboo topics" and are in fact diluting the rest of the website because those "topics" cannot be properly discussed and understood therefore.

You want the truth, the real truth then you have to take into consideration "EVERYTHING" and every single topic of interest to figure out, sift and sort for the truth, not just everything that fits your views or your websites views according to acceptance and popular comfort... Is ATS so different from the rest as it claims to be or as others think it is? I think not...

My 2 cent's on the issue.



[edit on 23-4-2010 by Crossfate]

We can just as easily say that the user stating that the man is a mechanic and is alive and well is a lie. Taking a blog for its word is bad, but believing some internet screen name is ok? Just playing devil's advocate here.

This is one of those stories that will go down as urban legend. We'll never know the truth so I say just leave this one alone.

Agreed. This place has become the polar opposite of what it claims to be on the surface.

For example, i got accused of spreading disinfo for pointing out that Zecharia Sitchin said Nibiru would arrive around 2060, and not 2012, which is a fact. And something people may want to keep in mind before including anything Zecharia said in their 2012 theories.

Lucky to get a single cheesy star for saying things like that. While someone who barks emotionally driven baseless claims and rhetoric becomes the hero of the thread. If it wasn't for some of the silent ones making me their friends i would feel like i was wasting my time here.

Not to sound anti-american, but i can't help but notice how people online are mirroring the methods of 'discussion' used by US media pundits. Meaning it doesn't matter who's right, just who sounds right, or who caters to what you want to believe.

Amen to that brother. Many will use ignorance if it suits their agenda. For instance the myth of a left-wing media. Almost without exception the media is owned and operated by right-wing conservatives, ever try to find a left-wing radio talk show during the day? Good luck here in Ohio but you can get Rush on 12-15 radio stations at once. Sure it's a leftwing media

Many here will run unabandoned with ignorance like the death panel posts or the birthers.

[edit on Fri April 23rd, 2010 by damwel]

Why doesn't the video-camera filmer come forward if he is alive and well?

I'm not saying i believe EITHER WAY... and i don't have my "heart set" on anything... truth doesn't have a side... BUT:

In this day and age, do you not think that whomever responsible for this sort of event would have the foresight to be infiltrating every 'conspiracy' site worth its salt and have information hushed or unjustifiably denounced? I would think so... why not? Even cops in my neighborhood pose as people in chat-rooms and navigate FACEBOOK for crimes... i'm SURE there are all types of units out there right under our noses.

Who's to say who is responsible, be they the kgb, mickey mouse, or jerry seinfeld ... doesn't own the information network? If they are powerful enough to commit an orchestrated act like this... i'm sure they have many, many connections.

Again i don't believe either way... i viewed most of the footage...i was sure i saw a man firing a gun at the ground (at someone not visible)... and the cameraman seemed pretty shook... then the "stabbing"... and the polish/russian translations... honestly i'm surprised everyone has quieted down about it.

Mav.

Originally posted by TheCoffinman
you forget that the MSM doesnt cover everything, if anything unless there is no way not to cover it. therefore you HAVE to look for alternative news sources wether they are blogs or whatever, that is what ATS is ALL about. its an alternative information site. where you WILL find information that you WONT find in the MSM. its the whole point of ATS....
[edit on 23-4-2010 by TheCoffinman]

Agreed. In a perfect world, MSM would dig for "the rest of the story". Today, we have a controlled MSM that focuses brain-dead entertainment zombies towards the latest Hollywood slut scandal or sports (it's easy and cheap to cover).

Most ATS'ers look to the alternate sources because they are aware of MSM's game. Unfortunately not all alternative sources practice good old journalistic ethics in checking rumors. The consequence is we have to endure the occasional erroneous story. This is a small price to pay in the imperfect world of news we now find ourselves in. In the end, we ATs'ers will sort it out and get at the truth.

Bottom line, Freedom and Liberty ain't always pretty or easy.