Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

This PERSON was involved in a COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE.

Someone else brought it up, this has nothing to do with a normal stop.

SORRY, but truckers are held to a higher standard.

Looks like to me someone ran with this not getting all the information. Anyone make any calls yet? Any emails? Anything?

NOPE, just FEAR MONGERING and spreading disinfo at it's finest!

reply to post by endisnighe


But I thought you were happy that this law passed?

Originally posted by endisnighe
I thought I would create this thread to actually address the issue at hand and not some tripe created to bash the TPM. I find it ironic that if someone in the enforcement arm of the Arizona police, has a reasonable suspicion that Obama is an illegal, they could force him to prove it!

From the legislation-

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c)

Here is the link to Arizona legislature's page on the immigration bill.

Arizona legislation 1070

Any Arizona Police Officers out there that are birthers?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It is what you wanted right? The stripping of fundemental rights for everyone just for the chance to get Obama?

reply to post by whatukno


Nice try wuk.

How you going to solve or address the immigration problem?

I think a good idea for China is start loading up millions of people and sending them over.

Hell, its a FREE WORLD AFTERALL.

We do not need borders.

Hey, I think I will be coming over to your place to make myself at home, what is your address?

Sorry, the federal government has 13 enumerated powers. ONE OF THEM IS THE PROTECTION AGAINST OUTSIDE COUNTRIES.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Ever going to address the issue SNARKY?

No, going to pull the standard politician angle, promise everything to everybody?

Yeah, that is what I thought!

reply to post by endisnighe


I guess those 10 Amendments don't mean anything to you do they?

Want a real solution to immigration reform? How about require every employer to use E-Verify?

How about making it easier for people to come to this country legally?

How about not ripping apart the constitution just to get at one guy you don't like politically?

reply to post by whatukno


E verify has been proven to only catch 50% of the people. As many people have also stated, cash under the table business. How bout that.

Of course I am all for screwing the government that way. Frell the mafia, they can get there cut through the coming VAT and the Cap and Tax and the Health care Tax and the etc etc etc etc etc.............ad infinitum.

I guess YOU KEEP MISSING THE PART I POSTED WAY BACK IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD OR YOU KEEP DOING IT ON PURPOSE!

This law only applies TO LAWFUL interactions with the police or government.

Going to argue that point or keep OBFUSCATING as ALWAYS.

reply to post by whatukno

Want a real solution to immigration reform? How about require every employer to use E-Verify?

Yep! All for the 4th Amendment are you? Sure, let's just mandate employers violate the 4th Amendment, there's an answer. If any employer is demanding such proof of documentation as a point of law, then they are necessarily violating the 4th Amendment. But that's not your problem, right? Once in Congress you'll just join in on the pass the responsibility game by demanding employers do your job for you, and violate the 4th Amendment while they're at it. Good call!

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


NO ONE wants to address the problems JPZ.

That is common sense. That is the SOLUTION.

No need bringing the solution into the equation.

Quit giving away free # and people will quit coming to the US. They will start going to OTHER nanny state countries. Maybe we should give people here illegally rides to the Alaskan countryside. They would have to cross through Canada and find what they are looking for. Oh wait, I doubt oh Canada would allow it.

Seems to me that OUR country is being systematically targeted in this way.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I wonder why?

Originally posted by MaxBlack
Pretty soon papers or race and immigrant status wont matter because everyone will be rounded up and transported to the FEMA camps that Glenn Beck the liar says does not exist just for being an American who once was proud of a country with freedoms and liberties for all.

I think Glenn Beck might start singing a different tune now that he's being called seditious himself.

AZ is showing us how police state gets set up and implemented. Pay attention because this same tactic will soon be coming to a State where you live.

And half the country will be all cheers about it.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

It may seem silly to some, making a law that you have to have "papers" to roam in public or while in private seems a bit NAZI GERMANY to me. Does it anyone else?

Sure we are going to have a huge problem with drug cartels and illegal immigration. Holding papers is not the answer. It seems as though in this area we have not learned from history.

Things are going to get bad at the border yes, but being nazi's about it is a step in the wrong direction.

reply to post by endisnighe

This law only applies TO LAWFUL interactions with the police or government.

Going to argue that point or keep OBFUSCATING as ALWAYS.

Actually I was talking about another thread you authored on this same subject.

Obama may not be allowed to go to Arizona if this immigration bill passes.

Well, it passed, these are the consequences of that bill.

You seem to be all for this law. Despite the ramifications that fly in the face of the 4th Amendment, I know, OMG someone may be of Latino decent, oh dear! They must be an illegal alien! According to you, in the thread that I listed above, you feel that Obama fits the description under this law of an illegal alien and you seem to feel that the second he steps foot in the state of Arizona that some officer should stop the president and demand that he prove that he is a citizen!

The entire premise of your thread that I listed above was your glee that this law passed. This law that violates the 4th Amendment rights of citizens of this country. It appears you are fine with that, as long as you can get rid of the POTUS, whom you have no qualms in hiding your disdain for.

Am I wrong?

E verify has been proven to only catch 50% of the people. As many people have also stated, cash under the table business. How bout that.

E-Verify is a good start. Legislation that would shut down businesses that hire illegal aliens is another step. You got to cut off the money supply to stop illegal immigration. If it is not profitable to come here and work just to sent the money out of country, then you make it less desirable to be here.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Yep! All for the 4th Amendment are you? Sure, let's just mandate employers violate the 4th Amendment, there's an answer. If any employer is demanding such proof of documentation as a point of law, then they are necessarily violating the 4th Amendment. But that's not your problem, right? Once in Congress you'll just join in on the pass the responsibility game by demanding employers do your job for you, and violate the 4th Amendment while they're at it. Good call!

E-Verify is not a violation of the 4th Amendment because you are not required by law to have a job in this country. You don't want a job that requires you to prove that you are legally able to work in this country? Start your own business.

I understand that people want to come to this country to work. That should be fine. I would like to see people be able to come to this country from south of the boarder to work here legally easier. The reason people come here from south of the boarder illegally is because our laws are too restrictive for them. I say we make it easier for people to work in this country. If you are really here to work, you shouldn't have a problem. If you are here to mooch off of the system, you should be sent home.

reply to post by whatukno


Still waiting for your address.

C'mon, you are not going to be a hypocrite are you?

There should not be any borders. So where the hell is my key to your house? You better start making up a bunch of keys, either that or just take off the locks on your house.

So now you are using one of my arguments on employment? At least you are admitting I am right.

And if you are going to TRY and enforce private business to verify citizenship. How bout making the government verify it, ohhhhhh, you are arguing against that AREN'T you?

Yeah, well, I say we verify citizenship in another private locale, hospitals.

Are you going to exempt that component also? How bout in our military? Oh that one is ALREADY exempt. Join the ARMY, get your citizenship papers.

reply to post by endisnighe

So now you are using one of my arguments on employment? At least you are admitting I am right.

You can't be wrong on EVERYTHING! Even you have to get something right once and a great while.

And if you are going to TRY and enforce private business to verify citizenship. How bout making the government verify it, ohhhhhh, you are arguing against that AREN'T you?

ohhhhhh, they already do!

Yeah, well, I say we verify citizenship in another private locale, hospitals.

So, are you suggesting that someone critically injured should be denied care because of their citizenship status?

"Sorry ma'am, but your husband is being denied care of his gunshot wounds because he doesn't have enough paperwork to prove that he is a citizen"

"Sorry but we are unable to treat this person who was just in an accident because he doesn't have his birth certificate on him."

NICE! Good show of your humanity towards your fellow man.

Are you going to exempt that component also? How bout in our military? Oh that one is ALREADY exempt. Join the ARMY, get your citizenship papers.

Yep, you're right, willing to die for this country? guess what? I am all for you to get citizenship!

As far as obfuscating an issue I believe you are the KING of that. You are ignoring the fact that the only reason you are really for this is because in some insane way you feel that this would apply to Obama. Instead of addressing that, you have decided to divert this issue to my views.

[edit on 4/23/2010 by whatukno]

This is happening all over the country and has been for some time. I know; I was an OTR driver for 8 years.

I believe it was in 2002 or 2003 when I found out I had to carry my birth certificate. It was my first trip into Canada, and I had picked up my load somewhere north of Toronto. My exit point was Detroit-Windsor, and the customs paperwork was already filled out for me by the shipper.

When I hit the city limits of Windsor, traffic came to a crawl. For six hours I sat in stop and go traffic, crawling through toward Ambassador Bridge. By the time I got there, I was tired, hungry, and cranky. All I wanted was to find a place to stop and rest a bit and maybe get a bite to eat. I crawled across the bridge and down around the ramp toward the customs booths.

The fellow behind the window was a rather plump guy with a baby face and a sour look. As I pulled up, I rolled down my window and handed him the paperwork with the biggest smile I could muster, with the words "I think this is what you need."

Now, anyone who has ever heard me would laugh at the idea that I lived anywhere except the Deep South. I have a southern accent thick enough to cut with a knife. I am also a white male with long hair and a full beard. I typically wear a black Stetson hat and if it wasn't on my head at the time, it was lying on the dash in plain sight. In short, I am quite probably the most 'American-looking/sounding' person to have pulled through that booth that day.

The guard took the paperwork and demanded "Identification". I pulled out my CDL (Commercial Drivers License) from my shirt pocket and handed it to him. He looked at it and got a puzzled look on his face. "What's this?"

I replied "It's my CDL... you wanted my ID."

He shook his head. "This isn't good enough. Passport, VISA, or birth certificate."

Somewhat at a loss for words, all I could do was shrug my shoulders and say "Sorry." I did consider showing him my belt buckle...

He eyed me like I was Charles Manson with a mohawk, then started looking over the paperwork. After a couple of minutes he literally tossed it back to me and stated "This isn't filled out correctly."

Shocked, and getting really worried (I had little idea about what was actually in that paperwork, to be honest), I asked "What's wrong?"

He told me the weight wasn't included on one of the pages. Now, the first thing any driver needs to know about any load is the weight. There are seriously strict laws concerning weight of commercial vehicles, and it is nigh-impossible to not cross an open scale during a trip of any length (and if memory serves I was headed to Laredo TX!). So I knew how much weight I had in the back. I leafed through the paperwork and saw where I had found the weight before. It was listed as the total weight of the load. I looked on the paper he was complaining about and it was asking for the total weight of the load. So I took out my pen and filled in the number, in front of the guard, and handed it back.

That seemed to satisfy him. Why he wanted me to do it I have no idea.

He finished checking the paperwork, handed it back,and then began giving me a lecture on how illegal it was for me to be driving around without a birth certificate and how he was doing me a huge favor by allowing me back into my own country. He informed me of all the penalties he could impose and how much trouble I could be in if he wanted to push it. By the time I rolled forward to pay (yes, PAY to get back into my own country!) the customs fee, I swear I had scars on my tongue from biting it... because what I wanted to say was:

"You fat ####, if you don't give me my license back and let me go, I'm turning this truck around, going back across that bridge, stopping at the first police station, turning myself in as an illegal alien, getting my ### deported, and you won't get your ####### five bucks!"

His final words were, and I quote, "I'm going to give you a break this time, but don't ever try to drive through here without proper identification again!"

I over drove my log book that day; I wanted as far away from that idiot as I could get! En route I called my wife and told her to get a copy of my birth certificate. I picked it up next home time and kept it in the truck ever since. I have since had to show it several times in different states.

That's one example; there have been many many more. When a driver pulls into a scale, he has no rights. He is at the mercy of those working that scale, and far too often they take advantage of drivers. I have been placed out of service for an air leak so tiny it could only be detected by placing a finger directly on top of the brake line when someone was pushing the brake... a little hard to do when you are the only person in the truck. That is not an exaggeration; the officer performed a pressure test earlier in the inspection and it passed with flying colors. The truck was declared out of service until someone could be called from the truck stop an hour away to come and fix it on the spot. Even worse, the officer that 'found' it admitted to me openly he pulled me in because a lot of those hoses had the same problem, even though it has never been shown to be dangerous.

This sort of thing happens from Florida to Washington, San Diego to Bangor, and everywhere in between. It has nothing to do with the recent immigration bill in Arizona; it has been going on for years in all 48 contiguous states. The fact that it is reported now might have to do with certain powers who wish to demonize the bill, though.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Common Good


Yep, it's true, I am white too, (at least that is what is on my ID) and several times when I was driving semi, I had to produce all papers that identified me as a legal American born truck driver. I do have dark skin, being part Egyptian and part Native American. That was in New Mexico, and Texas, at a DOT scales. So what it the driver complaining about? I am fully behind Arizona's new measure against this invasion from Mexico, and I hope each and every State in the Union adopts it. Come here the legal way, or stay away.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I agree completely with this. From what the story says, this was a drastic overreaction and a highly ineffective way of dealing with illegal immigration. I'm inclined to think that the officers were just being pricks. Because they could.

The guy gave his cdl and his SS#. They could have checked that easily enough, but they cuffed him and brought his wife into it... That's not right. UNLESS there's an AZ law that says you have to carry your birth certificate on your person for identification at all times. Anyone know about that?

Unless you would be OK with being treated this way yourself, then the ONLY stance to take is against this violation of a perfectly innocent man, IMO.

reply to post by whatukno

E-Verify is not a violation of the 4th Amendment because you are not required by law to have a job in this country. You don't want a job that requires you to prove that you are legally able to work in this country? Start your own business.

More Wukky logic? What requires an employer to invade the privacy of an individual in order to obtain employment? Being a private business every employer can, as part of the contract, demand documentation, this is their choice, but you weren't suggesting these employers have a choice on the matter were you?

Most, if not all employers, all ready believe they have a legal requirement to invade this privacy, but how is that not a violation of the 4th Amendment you have used to the point of ad nauseum in this and several other threads? All people have the right to contract and pretzel logic like having a job is not a requirement so therefore any laws demanding invasion of privacy are perfectly legal, does not hold muster.

Either you believe in the efficacy of the 4th Amendment or you just use it to your convenience. The former is noble the latter is not. If a person has the necessary skills an employer needs, what the hell difference does it make where that person is from? How is it an employers responsibility to enforce immigration laws the federal government has failed to do? You chose to throw the 4th Amendment out there as if it was your weapon of mass destruction, but in truth, it is your Pandora's box. You are not at all prepared to deal with the truths that come with opening that box.

There are thousands of statutes, codes and ordinances on the books that lead to blatant violations of protected rights, and the demand, under color of law, that an employer must make certain demands of their employees before contracting with them is not at all legal. Of course, the law does not make such demands, and anyone willing to read the scads of legislation regulating this will come to understand that legislatures skirt Constitutional restraints, through tautology and semantics. For example, by law, and employer is not required to demand a Social Security Number, but merely to request such identification number be supplied.

This distinction is of the utmost importance to understand, and yet, no one seems to care for such nuance and subtlety, and instead pretend it is a legal requirement. The Internal Revenue Code is what requires an employer to request such identification number, but in the event no number is supplied, it is the Code of Federal Regulations, not law itself, but pursuant to law, that clearly informs the employer what to do in the event no identification number is known. The CFR does not instruct the employer to refuse employment nor hold back on paying that employee until such identification is produced and instead informs the employer that a signed affidavit swearing that the request was made is all that is necessary.

That is the law, and it is wholly Constitutional as written, in its enforcement, not so much so, since no one ever bothers to read the damn law to begin with!

I say we make it easier for people to work in this country.

This is truly hard to believe given you are seemingly in full support of the current legislation being illegally enforced. You want to make it easier to work? I believe your heart is in the right place on this issue and please forgive me if I seem to be too hard on you, but the current swath of legislation doesn't make it easy for anyone to work in this country, whether they are here illegally or not.

I know you made a considered effort to find a practical solution to the outrageous legislation regarding taxes and your one page tax law is your most noble idea I have heard from you that would certainly make it easier for people to work in this country, but then you turn around and say things like no one is required to have a job in this country so it is okay to violate the 4th Amendment. Guess what? No one is required to own a gun, but this doesn't excuse violating the 2nd Amendment. No one is required to speak or press or hold religious views, but this doesn't justify violating the 1st Amendment. Do you understand?

As others and I have stated already, this is an OTR consideration.

If you do not know that the difference between being a COMMERCIAL operator and being a normal driver, everyone should READ a little bit about the sovereign movement.

Sorry, if you have a DRIVER'S LICENSE you are no longer just a citizen.

When you sign that LITTLE line on your driver's license, it is a CONTRACT to obey the statutes in regards to the COMMERCIAL operation of a MOTOR VEHICLE.

Some people are beginning to sound like sovereign citizens.

It is QUITE ironic really. QUITE ironic.

If you want me to explain further I will, but everyone that gets what I am stating here, will find all of the people decrying this yet are big gov proponents, are all but laughing inside at your IGNORANCE.

Obviously those folks including the newspaper reporter have no idea whats happened in the trucking business since 9/11

Last year I had to renew my CDL
I had to provide a birth certificate along with two other forms of ID plus proof of address, power/gas bills etc.

did they just hand over a new Lic... not hardly...
Next I had to comply with TSA's mandated HAZMAT Endorsement Threat Assessment Program, set down by the DHS. so I had to submit to having my fingerprints taken and wait while a full background check could be performed... 45 days started to finish and I had to pay an extra $129 on top on my licence fee's too!!!

We are not held to the same standards as a normal drive the kids to school driver. they can pull me out of a truck any time they like and have me pee in a cup to make sure I'm not doping... I've had to have my trailers X-rayed searched and once when bringing back a trailer load of rebar had to be tested for radiation levels!

None of us like it, but that is part of doing business post 9/11.
you either get used to it or simply find something else to do for a living.
Yes there probably is some racism and profiling going on but the instant you accepted your CDL you also gave up your rights to privacy.

Originally posted by DaddyBare
Yes there probably is some racism and profiling going on but the instant you accepted your CDL you also gave up your rights to privacy.

If you have to have fingerprints, show your BC and basically lay your entire life on the line, then having a cdl should be a pretty good indication that you're legit, shouldn't it?

I don't claim to know what it's like to be a commercial truck driver today (or anytime) but it would seem that if carrying one's birth certificate is mandatory, then this guy should have known that. Is there a requirement that commercial truck drivers have to carry your BC on you at all times? Is it known that carrying your BC is mandatory? Do you carry yours? Thanks.

Before we speak ill of what Arizona is doing, let us look at the reasons behind that law they are considering. The problem with Illegale immigration started during World War II. During that time president FDR invited people from Mexico to come into the US to help with the agriculture and jobs that were opened up as the work force were on their way to fight in that war. After the war ended, we did not ask them to leave, and they quickly filled a nitch in the labor market, as they were no longer guests, but quickly became illegale immigrants, many of whom were working to keep the production of food flowing. Then as the years continued, they would return home at the end of the season and return in the spring to work the fields, more showing up, slowly moving into other sectors of the job market. Now go forward, to where it is today and you begin to see the problem as many come here, spending vasts amount of money to be smuggled across the boarder, and quickly find that they are stuck here, unless they are caught and sent back. The drain on society is growing from that, as it is costly, so the voters of the country raise their voices to the federal government, and the federal government is suppose to listen. However, there is a problem, the federal government ignores its people and chooses to turn a blind eye to this problem. Oh they give a good show on capture and send back, but fail to make any real dent in the problem. This has been going on for years. The State of Arizona, tried to pass laws where it would deny services to those who are illegale immigrants and that was turned over by the US Supreme court, so this is the next step. As non PC as it may seem, it is a harsh solution to a very terrible reality. The federal government is not wanting to do anything and the state governments are having to balance their budgets with what money they have. Ask yourself this, do you think it is fair that you have to pay thousands of dollars for people who broke the laws so they can live and continue to break the law? Put yourself in the shoes of the local and state governments who are having to balance the needs of its citizens versus those who are not its citizens, who are they answerable to? The problem is the immigration policies are broken, and that needs to be fixed, and not by amnesty as it is coming out of the federal level, and at the same time, there is the safety of everyone involved, from the border patrol, to the actual illegale immigrants who are risking their lives to travel through some of the roughest parts of the country to get to places to find work. Now I can see them asking for more than 2 pieces of information to prove a person is who they say they are, as most who are breaking the law by having say a social security number that is not theirs and a fake id. So now you have the problem in a nut shell, a federal government that is acting inept and not following the laws that they passed, a growing number of illegale immigrants that keep crossing the boarders, and states are quickly running out of money tring to keep up with the basic services required by law.