Why does Satan seem cool and God seem like a jerk?

reply to post by Matthew Dark
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My reply is that I know a lot about philosophy, but nothing about this world.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
For the same reasons your friends in high school seemed cool and your dad seemed like a jerk. I assure you that as you mature, your views will too...and you will realize that neither your dad nor God is a jerk.

In fact, you quickly find they weren't as dumb as you thought, and the older you get...the less you are so sure of....LOL

Your dad purposely went out and found bad infulences for you to befriend and surrounded you with "cool" temptations that would lure you away from his protective love and teachings?

My dad did not but I was reading about your god and apparently he did that.

After all that free will BS, your god then went on and allowed his old friend Satan to fill the world with lies, deception, temptation, and confusion. He did not need to let that happen.
He could have just given you free will, good advice (do not pet lions, surface when you run out of air, people cannot fly, etc.) and sent you on your way. That sounds more like my dad.
He loved me, taught me, cared for me, looked out for me, and still allowed me to make my own mistakes. He did not have an old friend sprinkle my life with lies and temptation for apparently no good reason.

If you're referring to the biblical portrayal of what "God allowed Satan to do," then I pretty much agree with you, but if you actually think that all the excess, needless suffering in the world is due to Satan, I disagree with you. I believe Yahweh is the salve-driver, the Enlil figure (which predates Yahweh), who desires control over the minds and hearts of humans, and causes suffering, wars, famines, etc to achieve his ends. Satan, the true Lord of humanity, desires our freedom.

Originally posted by Matthew Dark
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Dude, don't mince words with me.
Stewardship is a caretaker position; more custodial than anything else.
But your bible specifically says "dominion", as in "domination; absolute sovereignty" also known as "I can treat you however I want because I own your sorry ass".
You're trying to tone down what the actual words are by putting your own spin on the definitions.
Don't bother.
You'll lose.

Mince words? Look I don't care what it says in the English.

The word in the Hebrew is "rada", which is also used later in the Torah in the relationship between a master and a servant or a shepherd over his flock. The Torah outlines the treatment of servants by masters, and there isn't any absolute sovereignty. Only G-d has absolute sovereignty.

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

Exodus 21:20-21

And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Exodus 21:26-27



[edit on 24/4/10 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by MikeboydUS


Has Satan ever killed anyone?

Wow, people need to pick up a Bible and read.

Satan takes everything from Job and I mean everything, including killing his family. He does it to try to prove a point. He tries to prove that the only reason Job has such great faith in G-d is because G-d had blessed him so much.

Yes, people do need to pick a bible and read it. God accepted the challenge. God gave Satan PERMISSION to bring so much pain to Job. Satan did not do anything to Job without first getting the OK from God. Read the story.

Why did your god accept a challenge from Satan that would bring so much suffering upon and innocent and devoted man? Too counter Satan's point -ie Make a point to Satan.

Who come off as more evil in that story?

John Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno have completely brainwashed most people into thinking Satan is something else.

Who on this board is quoting the type of devil illustrated by either fictional author? I think you are confused because Christians are prone to just believe books are some divine truth. Atheists and the like are able to find their way out of the fiction section.

Satan in the Bible is a tyrant.

God in the Bible is a tyrant.

He isn't in hell. He has not fallen.

Again, ditto.

He doesn't like humans. He is compelled to prosecute humanity, which means one thing.

Satan? Are you sure you read any of that bible you are telling others to read? GOD PROSECUTES HUMANITY NOT SATAN. Satan does not hand out judgement, your god does. Satan is not a prosecuter, he is just the jailer. He takes what your god sends him. Knowing what Satan is going to do with them, it hardly resembles anything to the contrary of what you state about Satan to still willingly send them to him. Obviously your god does not like humans or he would not prosecute them and send them off to the worst punishment imaginable.

He wants humanity exterminated.

Then why does he not just rain fire down on cities and kill whole lots of them? Oh, right, your god does that.

Why does he not just flood the planet and kill them all? Oh, right, your god again.

How about getting humans to kill each other over him? Damn, your god have Park Place and Boardwalk, plus that light blue crap on the other side of GO.

Hmmm...what can Satan do to kill humanity (as you say he wants to) that your god has not already done or is doing?

How about get people to believe that they have the right to murder other people over stupid laws like cursing at your father? Damn, your god again.

Maybe you just have God and Satan confused?

This idea of Satan being a rebel is based on assumptions and misconceptions.

Out of curiosity, why does your bible say the rift between God and whatever you call Satan began or what was it about?

Two clear misconceptions, the serpent in Eden and Helel king of Babylon. Neither of them are the same as the Satan of Job.

Funny, I tried to argue the same thing and all I got was the verbal beat-down from a bunch of faux-Christians. Where were you to back me up?

All of this Promethean nonsense is fan fiction.

...and the award for best use of a pretend reference with no real link in a completely empty sentence goes to...


Mikey!!!

Applause applause.

So Satan has started wars, killed, and even committed atrocities. He doesn't care if we kill each other anymore than if maggots murdered one another.

When did your god show any concern over whether or not we kill each other?

I can agree Satan does not care if we kill each other.

Unfortunately, not only does God also not seem to care - he punishes us on top of it for it.

Ha-Satan = adversary. It's a title. It's very possible the Satan I worship is not the Satan of Job.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint

 

Here is why Satan seems cool and God seems like a jerk.

Satan offers the easy options, the roads that humans prefer.

God offers the difficult options, the roads that people can't be bothered to follow.

Do you think we are here to have an easy lazy life? OK, follow Satan.

Or are we here in order to learn, to grow and to help others? OK, follow God.

Or I could rephrase and say, Satan equals evil and God equals good - the names are almost the same - God and good. You do not have to be religious to differentiate between good and evil.

But what about having to atone at some point?

Having to atone for what? Sin is a figment of the masochistic human imagination, implanted by the slave-driving elohim. Satan is the liberator, the god of this world in favor of full human liberation and potential. Hail Satan!

Originally posted by Matthew Dark

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by GENESIS2012

 

And God, or good, equals caring about your fellow human beings, animals and the planet.

Wait...did you really just say that?
Are you freakin' kidding me?
god cares about animals?
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but your bible said (and I know I covered this before, but you probably didn't even read the whole thread before you decided to give your [sarcasm] educated opinion [/sarcasm] ) that man (and it doesn't even say "woman" or "people" or "humans", it says man, so right there, your god is a sexist jerk) has dominion over animals.

In giving man dominion over animals, man has developed factory farming. Millions of animals tortured and murdered every day...living in miserable conditions, treated inhumanely, and dying in indescribable fear and agony...because...your god "cares about animals". Do you even have a freakin' clue?

Honestly...there is insurmountable evidence that none of you think before you speak or even listen to a fraction of the stuff that comes out of your mouths.

People turn around and ask me if I've read the bible, so I can, in turn, ask them if they know about the torture and suffering their post-church Sunday dinner steak came from. You all cast the very stones you accuse other of casting.

catwhoknows must live in a bubble if he/she thinks Yahweh gives a rat's ass about animals (or humans for that matter). Open a newspaper or a recent edition of National Geographic. God does not give a damn. He's toying with us. If any deity cares at all about us, it's Lucifer.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


By "mince words" I was referring to the "dominion" part of the argument and how it is defined and/or interpreted.
Buuuuuut...about the rest of what you said...
It doesn't matter if you care what the English is...that's what it says.
If they wanted to translate it better, then they should have...well...translate it better.
I'm no bible scholar, because I don't care to be.
I'm no foreign language major either...hell...I barely speak English.

Originally posted by Matthew Dark
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

By "mince words" I was referring to the "dominion" part of the argument and how it is defined and/or interpreted.
Buuuuuut...about the rest of what you said...
It doesn't matter if you care what the English is...that's what it says.
If they wanted to translate it better, then they should have...well...translate it better.
I'm no bible scholar, because I don't care to be.
I'm no foreign language major either...hell...I barely speak English.

Thats a whole other subject I could go on about, authorities manipulating translations for their own agendas.

Authorities will translate in ways that best suit them or their agendas. Organized religion is very guilty of pushing these agendas. Not to mention selecting which books of the Bible to make into canon.

reply to post by satanictemple


Thats very possible. There are many satans. Some are adversaries to humanity like Ha-Satan of Job.

I have a bizarre hypothesis that I don't want to get into in this thread, but it basically amounts to the idea that Ha-Satan has his own adversaries or "satans". In effect there are those who resist his agents and wardens. Some with their own agendas. Some possibly aiding humanity.

If you are familiar with Azazel, you may know he is not Ha-Satan of Job. He seems to have had the whole human potential/ fire from the gods mission. The book of Enoch isn't in the Bible, but it does paint Azazel and the angels that followed him as Promethean figures.

I see that your familiar with Sumerian myth, Enlil and Enki.
This is my interpretation of the myths: Anu/An is G-d. EnLil is the Satan of Job. EnKi is Azazel. In the myths EnKi just like Azazel goes down before the deluge and teaches men knowledge. The constellation of Capricorn (the horned goat) is also associated with EnKi. The figure of the goat is also associated with Azazel. I should also mention that EnLil, means Lord of the Wind/Loft. Compare that to the Satan of Job's title "Prince of the Aer".






[edit on 24/4/10 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by satanictemple
If you're referring to the biblical portrayal of what "God allowed Satan to do," then I pretty much agree with you, but if you actually think that all the excess, needless suffering in the world is due to Satan, I disagree with you.

I think I see what you are saying. I am not blaming the biblical Satan for all the worlds evils. I am trying to say he is just being himself and according to God, that is evil. God allowing that to persist and invade human life and still calling it evil is far worse than anything Satan could do.

Unfortunately, yes the biblical Satan is responsible for all kinds of specific little events of loss and suffering. See the Job story.

I believe Yahweh is the salve-driver, the Enlil figure (which predates Yahweh), who desires control over the minds and hearts of humans, and causes suffering, wars, famines, etc to achieve his ends. Satan, the true Lord of humanity, desires our freedom.

Seems you believe some of the myths in that book and perhaps others?

I am not talking about historical accuracy or other people's BELIEFS. I am responding to Christians about their specific book of lies.

I hope that helps.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by K J Gunderson]

Originally posted by satanictemple
Ha-Satan = adversary. It's a title. It's very possible the Satan I worship is not the Satan of Job.

Actually no.

Capital letters indicate a proper noun. My name means little king but I am neither undersized or of any royalty. When I say Satan with a capital S to a Christian, I believe they know who I am speaking of as well as it being much easier than saying "the guy that was labeled adversary to your god in the bible" each time I want to refer to the guy they named...Satan.

I hope that helps.

I get your point but I believe that most people that would take part in a thread like this know that when I am talking about bible stories and say "Satan" they know exactly which character in their book I am speaking of.


[edit on 24-4-2010 by K J Gunderson]

reply to post by K J Gunderson


The word "satan" appears numerous times in the Hebrew in the Bible and refers to various figures, including people. So it can refer to any adversary.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

The word "satan" appears numerous times in the Hebrew in the Bible and refers to various figures, including people. So it can refer to any adversary.

What did I just say???

The word "satan" comes from adversary. Christians know the guy named "Satan." Tell me again what I said that was wrong.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by K J Gunderson]

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by GENESIS2012

 

Because the devil equals everything negative - get everything, grab everything, don't care about people etc etc etc, wage war, blah blah blah.

According to what? whom? when? where?

And God, or good, equals caring about your fellow human beings, animals and the planet.

The first option is easier.

I think you have them mixed up. Wars are fought for that god all the time. What wars were started by Satan? God commands humans to kill other humans all throughout the bible for punishment and sacrifice. Speaking of sacrifice, that same god also asks for animal sacrifices be made unto him.

I am skimmin that bible again but I am having a rough time finding where Satan is accused of being behind any of that. Your god seems to be quite proud of his role in those things.

Maybe you can help me out.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You said his satan couldn't be a different satan. I'm saying it could. It doesn't matter how Christians percieve the issue.

Azazel and Ha-Satan of Job are two different entities. Azazel has been called a satan and so has numerous other angels. Christian misconceptions don't change that. You and I both know there are Christians who call anything they don't understand "satan", including Allah and Buddha.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Ive stated before that Satan can't do anything without G-d authorizing it.

Then you understand that God is the real evil one by taking Satan's requests, considering them, understanding how they will harm his precious humans, and allows it anyway. Cool, so why is he a good guy again?

That doesn't change his desire to commit such actions.

Who cares what he desires? Your god is the only one looking at what he desires and allowing him to continue indulging them. Your god MADE a bad thing that wants to do bad things and continues to allow it to roam free...doing bad things.

Why is your god so quick to reward Satan's desires with ever increasing chances to enjoy them? You sure that god is really on your side and not his?

Its not so much as a challenge. Does a prosecutor challenge a judge when bringing a case before him?

Not sure what you are referring to or trying to say here. What challenge are you speaking of? According to your book, God is the Judge, prosecuter, and jury. You are not allowed a lawyer because the biggest sin is not knowing everything God wants you to know even though he let the world fill with lies and confusion.

A better question would be why is there such a system of agents and wardens that operate, bringing cases before the Adatel ( the court of G-d)?

Huh? What are you talking about? God brings cases before God.

The Bible doesn't give a definitive answer, but there are verses that seem to imply some kind of system or structure was set up after either the deluge or the Babel incident.

Could you be slightly more vague and use less references? That would be killer!

From your perspective yes, but compared to many human kings and dictators I would say no.

This is not a subjective comparison game. You are referring to characters in a book. By any definition of tyrant, your god fits the bill. Look up "tyrant."

It may be my opinion but unlike yours, mine is based on the words in the book you are using to make points that are not true. He is a ruthless leader who offers death to anyone not immediately succumbing to his perfect love. Like I said before, capital punishment for lashing out at daddy is hardly the move of a loving lord.

If you can present the definition of "tyrant" and make a case, then you can tell me it is just my opinion. Until then, I will continue to believe you do not really know what the word means or have not read tha book because for one thing, Satan is not a leader. Satan is not in charge. Satan does not get to be a tyrant.

G-d has a more hands off approach than most national leaders. Satan and the other wardens on the other hand directly interfere in human lives. If you are familiar with the Gnostic Archons, Satan's wardens and agents are virtually identical.

If you are familiar with the bible, your god created all of that and put it all in place. He has the power to stop or end them at any time. That would make them all his agents. I know, crazy book. Read it.

Satan prosecutes humanity. G-d judges. Thats very clear in the book of Job. To an extent Satan could also be called an executioner, but I don't know where you get the idea of him being a jailer.

I get it from the bible. In that bible, Satan is never the prosecuter and I am having a hard time remembering him being executioner. God hands out punishment every day. God presents his own cases and argues against them. He decides how to punish them and then carries it out - that punishment being eternity in a place with a bad bad dude. Alll God there buddy.

Your example is not a good one. Satan is not prosecuting Job. Satan is just making him suffer. There is a difference.

He isn't authorized to do so. I'm sure if given authorization he would do so.

My point was that your god DOES do those things.

I think you might have them confused. The Gnostics made a mistake like that.

LOL. When I said it to you, I at least made my case. Come on now.

There isn't any rift with them. The rift is between humanity and G-d.

So Satan is still in heaven as God's number 1 guy? Now I have more questions but I think I better send you a bible to read first. Mine is highlighted, underlined, and dog-eared all throughout. It might really help.

Where was this? I used to have a thread on ATS, where I broke it down verse by verse, word by word about the Serpent and Helel, King of Babylon.

I forget what thread but if I come across it, I will show you. Not one xtian of any kind was even willing to listen to what I was saying. I was just wrong. No discussion, no reasoning. I was just wrong about it and that was that. They argued with many posts and many words but it was all angry vitriol.

You know how some people can get really angry and defensive when you poke a hole in their lifelong beliefs, no matter how flimsy they were to begin with.

I know its difficult to argue with people who have been brought up on a specific belief structure, even though their holy books contradict what they were taught. They don't like their view of reality disrupted. It confuses them, causing uncertainty and doubt. The biggest issue is that humans don't like to think for themselves. They don't like the responsibility.

I could not agree more and that conversation about the serpent really highlighted that for me on ATS.

I try to not be like that. I examine faiths and philosophies from around the world, searching for archetypes and analogs. There is a syncretic pattern.
I try to go back to the original words and languages to find meaning.

Well then maybe you can teach me something. Let me try and be less adversarial and more inquisitive with you then. I just know from past experience that never works out in my favor for long in these scenarios but hey.

So far, many of the things you have stated contradict what I have read in my bible. Maybe your exploration of many religions has given you different insight. Perhaps it has left you confused. Christianity is a hard one to really get down. That book is just so long and both repetetive as well as contradictory. Not hard to read but hard to memorize and keep straight.

One of the issues that most humans have with any superior being or god and how that being deals with humanity, is that humans think they have some kind of special entitlement or rights.

Maybe that is because your god is supposed to be perfect love. Most of us know what love is and real love is not so conditional as the guy in your book wants his to be. We know that there are certain considerations that come with the pure love of another being. Many of us just hear "perfect love" and think that has to be even easier than what we are doing down here. I guess that would be god's fault for faulty advertising.

Do fruit flies in a lab have rights? Does a bacterial culture have rights?

Those things are not "created" by the lab and then told they are loved by that lab. They are made to be used and that is that. No indication of love there.

An even better analogy would be does a Sim, from the game, have rights? Should we give rights to virtual beings? Most people would say no, they arn't real. Humans are in a somewhat comparable situation.

I am flipping through the manual for "The Sims 3" right now. Even if I wanted to bestow upon them the knowledge of perfect love, there is no way to communicate that to them. There is not even a cheat code for that. Turns out they have no free will either. Apparently, I am controlling them like a tryant and could never tell them that I love them if I wanted. They hardly deserve punishment and have no need for "rights."

Do you have a better analogy? One that works would be awesome!

Compared to the powers or archetypes that transcend us, we are virtual. Our world is a mere shadow of theirs.

So, the god in the bible does not really love us? He never came down and told us that he is directly watching us and gave us rules he will see that we follow? What bible are you reading?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You said his satan couldn't be a different satan. I'm saying it could. It doesn't matter how Christians percieve the issue.

Awesome point. The word satan could be referring to someone else. Unfortunately you and I both know that Christians know exactly who they mean when they say "Satan" with a CAPITAL S.

Otherwise, you need to see your last post that I replied to. You use the proper name "Satan" many many times and we both know exactly who you meant. Are you trying to argue that your post was really nonsense built on vague references to many different characters?

Azazel and Ha-Satan of Job are two different entities. Azazel has been called a satan and so has numerous other angels.

I really cannot belive that I need to take a 3rd post to point out to you that

"a satan" and "Satan" are two different references.

Christian misconceptions don't change that. You and I both know there are Christians who call anything they don't understand "satan", including Allah and Buddha.

I am not sure what you know, but I know that when they do that they are more than willing to explain that they believe that Allah and Buddha are just tricks played on humanity by the same capital S Satan you and I have been discussing already quite fine without taking the time each time to ask which satan you mean.

If you really want to discuss word etymology, start a thread. I am sure it could be very interesting. At this point you have only confirmed what I said.

"a satan" and "Satan" represent different things here.

You People are all wrong !

The Bible is Nothing more the a extremely Diluted Version (with a lot of add ins for population control )! Of Sumerian History that was past down to Egypt ,Persian/Indian(India) then to Roman , Greek , to Upper North Europe Norse/Celtic
it all the same thing just names are changed !! go watch the Documentary Naked Truth or Zeitgeist I came to my senses way before those documentary i mention came out And All Religions Claimed A Flood From a Angry God in some form !

World Paganism of one point of theirs the Greater god to the Lesser gods Pattern in the Jewish Talmud/bible its YAHWEH and his 12 Arch Angels ( lesser gods to some its Messengers ) and Christian Bible Jesus and his 12 Disciples Messenger s

Same PATTERN Of Occupation and Virtue of the Greater god and Lesser Gods ! from the Sumerian to Christian/Muslim/Jewish Ironically in the same Pattern in Their Talks of the First Humans of earth ,ADAM and EVE to Gods riding fiery chariots bad ones called Demons to Dragons to Exile/Exodus of the Enslaved the only one im not so sure about is China's/ASIAN Pattern as there were Internally Isolated from the outside world

for you Christians when you sit/kneel read some Scriptures/prayers and say AMEN at the Ending ! in your church do you know what it means its Originality en.wikipedia.org... to en.wikipedia.org...

Disbelievers here is a a Site for you of the word AMEN

www.seiyaku.com...
hubpages.com...

Snippit

But where did it all begin? Pagans From old Egyptian texts we can see that people regarded the Sun as the emblem of the Creator. They called the Sun Ra, and all other gods and goddesses were forms of the Creator. One of these gods was Amen; a secret, hidden and mysterious god named variously Amen, Amon, Amun, Ammon and Amounra. For the first eleven dynasties (c. 3000-1987 B.C.) Amen was just a minor god, but by the 17th dynasty (c. 1500 B.C.) he had been elevated to be the national god of southern Egypt. This position gave Amen the attributes and characteristics of the most ancient gods, and his name became Amen-Ra, that is, a supreme form of God the Creator. By the 18th Dynasty (1539-1295 B.C.) a college had been established to study Amen-Ra and as a focal point for worship.
The Jews settled in Egypt for around 400 years4 from 1847 B.C. and during this sojourn there is no doubt they would have been fully exposed to the worship of Amen-Ra. By the time of their exodus from Egypt in 1447 B.C., the term 'Amen' would certainly be in their language even if it was not their god. It would be a word that had associations with reverence and majesty. This is not difficult to understand. People still talk about Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha, and often use those names completely out of context as expletives. Amen was seen as a powerful god and the name continued, out of context, as an exclamation or salutation; a classic example of language evolution. From the Jews, the word was adopted by Christians, Muslims and others.

Influence from a way older Religion of Paganism (Sumerian) as I Believe God/Jesus Greater God Angels (Lesser gods) Angels all have a Virtue and A Occupation as the Lesser gods in Greek Roman Egyptian Norse Myths
But to some they are Messengers as Lesser gods are to Zeus , Odin Amun , Ganesha/Shiva ETC.. do you see it the Pattern you dont ? look at other religions and see the similarity's just as Christian branch their religion in all directions Catholic , Protestant , Methodist , Baptist and lesser Branches

example Satan /Lucifer/Gabriel , Set/Anubis , Hades/Mors , Loki/HAL



where is heaven ? it not in the star chart ! it must be a dimension !then

ohh boy

S & Y missing ya i know and ,to ,the, T

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Wolfenz]

reply to post by Wolfenz


Yeah yeah yeah. I think it is hard to find someone on ATS that has not seen or heard of zeitgeist if they did not already have some actual history in their heads- which many here do. Thanks for that and all but this thread is not about the validity of the bible. It is simply a question about which one the Fonz would want to be like.

Maybe Satan is enjoying his 1000 year reign on earth as we speak. The God currently known to humanity is actually the snake and evil one.

The one we see today as Satan is the true God that will rule heaven in the end.

The God of Islam and Christianity is Evil in nearly all aspects as described in thier own Religeous writtings.

I know I will get flamed by some on this but step back a moment and relize your belief system is based on what is written by other men not Gods.

It is going to be hard for you to wake up and see the rediculas asertion that is your religion but truth is truth no matter how you delude yourself in your faith. Your faith is backed only by feeling and no facts.