It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

15,000 protest to RAISE taxes and to "Chop from the Top"

page: 5
13
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by Janky Red
 


The market would create the rules. But remember, the market doesn't dictate by what is being sold, it dictates by what is being bought.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by aravoth]


Well a simple example, is airlines moving to an all credit system onboard

Obviously done for ease and simplification of the credit transaction

More airlines are moving towards this model

So, basically it means

I have to have good credit

I then have to been in possession of a card

so in this equation, boiled down I have to meet the business's standard, they dictate the terms of sale and purchase.

The people with credit cards and there participation in the system further this dictate.

A. So my recourse is to go hungry and or file suit

OR

B. pass a law that forbids this practice based upon the fact that my cash is universally recognized as "money".

So if B is bad, I need a lawyer, lots of money and energy to address something as simple as a sandwich?

I have many examples where the COMPANY creates both sides of the contract, I am only free to take it really. Or buy a raft and a compass, lasso a giant bird of prey...



Credit companies would probably not exist without a central bank either. I don't see how they could, since credit is created out of nothing essentially. I guess you could have electronic certificates of gold receipts, but you would have to transfer the gold from vault to vault eventually.

But as far as "credit cards" are concerned, I don't think they can exist, at least in thier current form, without fiat money. "Credit" could, since anyone could still make a loan, but the reliance on credit as a means of exchange would virtually disappear, since it would be pointless to trade worthless 1's and 0's, when the market is using gold and silver.




posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red

Are you saying that teachers do not work???

Well I know I see potholes fixing themselves all the time, so maybe you're right...


I have not seen a pothole for years...hehe

Ok so a teacher makes 50k to 60k and their partner lets say makes 20k....well they are now in the top 20% wage earners in America.

I know the system is broken still, and I would love to see more money go directly to teachers. Maybe we can reduce the overhead of people in the system who make 2x what teachers make and don't teach.

Also, a big part of that is a racket that more money is pumped in the "management" part of the education system than into actually helping our kids.

A friend of mind is a math teacher in high school and he gets pissed by seeing all these people with jobs and titles in the system that he can't even figure out what they actually do, but earn 6 digits.

One interesting point is what I have seen is with two of the only seven states without state tax. Texas and Washington that I spent five years in Texas and now live in Washington and both have some of the best schools in the country and are doing well, and right across the river in Oregon (with extremely high state tax) their schools are hurting.




[edit on 22-4-2010 by Xtrozero]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth



Obama's Healthcare bill is not government run health insurance. It forces all Americans to purchase healthcare from a government provider. Basically all those HMO's and "big" insurance companies that the Fed's railed against while promoting that healthcare bill all of them now have a steady supply of taxpayer money going into the corporate coffers.

Again, you get what you ask for. The people tried to get the government to give them something for free, something to save them from corporations, and they wound up making those corporations immensely more wealthy and powerful.

Which brings me back to my previous point, which you can read about in the above posts.

I agree that Obama's healthcare bill isn't like other countries. In fact, it does seem to benefit private insurance companies more than anybody, waht I meant is that these people are out there protesting anything that may actually benefit the average American. Protesting higher taxes on the wealthy seem to be their top priority. They don't seem to be standing for the best interests of the average American.

Not to mention the fact that this movement is backed by many right wing media pundits who live to serve their corporate masters, and it begins to make one wonder if they aren't in fact protesting against change that would benefit themselves and the majority of Americans. It makes one wonder whether or not these people are being played for fools and I think that they are.

Some of the top organisizers of these protests don't seem to be the most stand up individuals either. Wasn't one of them shown to be involved with iranian terrorist organizations as well as American hate groups? Some were even speculating the man might be involved with the CIA.

If positive change was actually trying to be achieved, do you really think Fox News would back it? Or any other media conglomerate for that matter? No, they would be far more interested in maintaining the status quo. Ensuring that corporations continued to maximize their profits at the expense of the American citizen. Why would they want anything to change? Why would they want the average American to have any say in anything regarding their nations policies, foreign or domestic? The short answer is that they wouldn't.

These issues alone should make one wonder whether the tea partiers are actually fighting for a better America. In their defence, they make think they are fighting for a better America, but something tells me they are being used and abused in order to ensure corporate rule reigns supreme.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by maddogron
In AZ, we are getting ready to vote for a One cent sales tax on may 18th, to temporarily raise the sales tax to offset the huge budget deficit. Police, teachers, fire fighters, etc. are being axed if this vote does not go thru.... I hope it fails and we can all let the games begin personally...

"If Prop. 100 is voted down, however, 15 to 20 percent of teacher positions may be eliminated, according to the Arizona Education Network."

"If Proposition 100 passes, the Willcox School District is looking at a $391,339 decrease from its current budget. This is what the state will cut, even if the proposition passes. If the sales tax does not pass, we add $571,593 to those cuts, which is $962,932 - nearly $1 million," said Jim Foley, the district's business manager. "That's 13 percent of our budget - it would be extremely devastating. I hate taxes, but I'll vote for this"


Man, just think how well our states would be if we had a small fed government and paid lets say 5% flat tax to them, but paid 15% flat tax to the state....life would be good for all....



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:39 PM
link   
Another excellent thread about issue that count more than anything else. I loved your thread about income distribution and the poor growing poorer and the rich wealthier.

There's no point in paying taxes at all, in a monied system, and I only endorse a grass roots venus project without bankers, leaders, realators, copyright or patents, just higher education, volunteering, cooperation and freedom, and equality, with most things decriminalized, and jury duty rotating shifts for some management by all the highly educated citizens.

However in this slave system, of control, people need to wake up. I woulndt even pay 10% taxes, let alone 30% or more, if it didn't boomerang right back in excellent free education, health care, and services. I woulnd't pay for the military, or money for big business, or black ops, or interest to the Bank of England. Not a chance.

What people need to do is start in groups making lists of all the essential services and businesses and pooling up to get small versions going, and then only buy and trade from each other. And fire them. They want to crash our economies, we can bring theirs to its knees, and start investing in each other and our children only.


[edit on 22-4-2010 by Unity_99]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:41 PM
link   
What I don't understand is why these legislative types always say "the only alternative is to raise taxes" like they've explored EVERY other option on the table. The solution has always been to overburden the middle class working man and woman more and more.

What about some of these fat cat government employees of Springfield taking a pay cut, for starters? How about doing away with some of the "niceties" that come with the job like a state-funded car (unless you're a police officer of course)? What about forcing more expenditures of these government employees like LUNCH and DINNER to come out of pocket instead of out of the treasury (that's an assumption, but I've seen it done with other townships in the past). Can the school superintendent take a pay cut? What about the city council - are they salaried?

I call BS anytime government says "we've exhausted all of our options and the only thing we can do is raise middle class taxes!"



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:43 PM
link   
Flagged and starred, regardless of my opinion a 15,000 strong protest deserves to headline.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 12:43 AM
link   
Eventually people will be forced out of the system as it collapses on itself. At that point I hope people understand that problem isn't "what public policy would work?" The problem was public policy itself.

Society needs no manager. And that point is proven every day now. Social Security is over 40 trillion in the red, Medicare still has trillions in future obligations. Our military empire is crumbling apart, proving that relentless, ongoing war is detrimental to the health of a nation. Looting your neighbors to pay for your social services has, does, and will always destroy any nation. I say that because historically, in literally every country that ever tried to have Fiat money, combined with a massive welfare and warfare state, the state ceased to exist, 100% of the time. A perfect score.

The United States is no different. Like any government it is rotten to the core. And like anything man-made, it has a shelf life.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 12:47 AM
link   
reply to post by aravoth
 


Corporate welfare for the rich is over twice the cost as welfare for the poor.

Corporations creates the government -- the original colonies were corporate charters created by "Divine Rule" of the King of England.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 01:15 AM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by Isosceles


Sadly the teaparty members are protesting against themselves and fighting to save the existing system that you speak of in a way. While the obama healthcare package may have been subpar, the chance to provide all Americans with affordable healthcare through taxation doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. In fact, this is what the rest of the first world and beyond is accustomed to, and while problems do exist, they are far better than the alternative. Not being able to access healthcare at all. Or accessing healthcare, but losing their home in the process.




Obama's Healthcare bill is not government run health insurance. It forces all Americans to purchase healthcare from a government provider. Basically all those HMO's and "big" insurance companies that the Fed's railed against while promoting that healthcare bill all of them now have a steady supply of taxpayer money going into the corporate coffers.

Again, you get what you ask for. The people tried to get the government to give them something for free, something to save them from corporations, and they wound up making those corporations immensely more wealthy and powerful.




Just for clarification sake and a simplier explanation between fat cat banking corp and Insurance companies, so that other readers may see a difference.

If someone offers me a banking license, I would grab it at a drop of a hat. Simply because I get tonnes of deposits literally, need only to give back 3% a year or less as interest on savings, but with depositors money, I can get 9% DAILY playing on the Wall Street casiono called stock market!

I would have money beyond any man's dream and with money, come power to rule the world -at no cost to me!!!

However, if someone were to tell me to start an insurance company, I would think long and hard. It is a gamble that I have no control over, because it has to do with mortal being's health, which is unpredictable.

Yes, Healthcare being compulsory, I would have trillions of deposits on my hands, but remember, if just one of them gets ill, I have to pay in full to hospitals for every single cost.

For a $300 premium, I am liable for up to and even beyond $300,000 hospitalisation bills! And that's for just one person! If i have 30,000 such clients laying in hospitals in a year, I would be in deep sh#t, and will have to kickass on the medical industrial complex for overcharging my clients or try to get them to rationalise costs.

Gimme a banking license please, rather than the insurance company. The pressure is immense and furthermore, with insurance company, its the govt that determines the rate and acceptance of clients, not me.

But if no banking license avaliable, then no choice, I will take a chance on the insurance deal, work extra harder to get 9% daily and hope i get lucky everyday.

My point is - see the difference between banking and insurance? Bankers lose nothing, pure fun and games at the people's expense, and can control the world, but insurance is something serious, which no govt and people can do without and is a biz enterprise only the bold and courageous dare undertake.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 01:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Janky Red

Are you saying that teachers do not work???

Well I know I see potholes fixing themselves all the time, so maybe you're right...


I have not seen a pothole for years...hehe

Ok so a teacher makes 50k to 60k and their partner lets say makes 20k....well they are now in the top 20% wage earners in America.

I know the system is broken still, and I would love to see more money go directly to teachers. Maybe we can reduce the overhead of people in the system who make 2x what teachers make and don't teach.

Also, a big part of that is a racket that more money is pumped in the "management" part of the education system than into actually helping our kids.





[edit on 22-4-2010 by Xtrozero]


I agree, the bureaucracy in education is insane...

Both my parent were teachers one a professor and one a special ed teacher.

But guess which one spent nearly twice the time in school??? tricky questiony...

My mom, who taught retarded children how to function at a basic societal level
spent close to twenty years of her life in some form of higher education, in the end to teach children who are lucky to count to ten, go figure...

In my utopian world we would have small bureaucracy, large delivery system to anything that is socialist in nature. A private system that has to adhere to laws
with teeth that match the pee on penal code.

Ultimately I do not see any perfect fix from either school of societal implementation.
You either get a self serving government or a self serving elite private structure...



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 01:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by Isosceles


Sadly the teaparty members are protesting against themselves and fighting to save the existing system that you speak of in a way. While the obama healthcare package may have been subpar, the chance to provide all Americans with affordable healthcare through taxation doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. In fact, this is what the rest of the first world and beyond is accustomed to, and while problems do exist, they are far better than the alternative. Not being able to access healthcare at all. Or accessing healthcare, but losing their home in the process.




Obama's Healthcare bill is not government run health insurance. It forces all Americans to purchase healthcare from a government provider. Basically all those HMO's and "big" insurance companies that the Fed's railed against while promoting that healthcare bill all of them now have a steady supply of taxpayer money going into the corporate coffers.

Again, you get what you ask for. The people tried to get the government to give them something for free, something to save them from corporations, and they wound up making those corporations immensely more wealthy and powerful.




Just for clarification sake and a simplier explanation between fat cat banking corp and Insurance companies, so that other readers may see a difference.

If someone offers me a banking license, I would grab it at a drop of a hat. Simply because I get tonnes of deposits literally, need only to give back 3% a year or less as interest on savings, but with depositors money, I can get 9% DAILY playing on the Wall Street casiono called stock market!

I would have money beyond any man's dream and with money, come power to rule the world -at no cost to me!!!

However, if someone were to tell me to start an insurance company, I would think long and hard. It is a gamble that I have no control over, because it has to do with mortal being's health, which is unpredictable.

Yes, Healthcare being compulsory, I would have trillions of deposits on my hands, but remember, if just one of them gets ill, I have to pay in full to hospitals for every single cost.

For a $300 premium, I am liable for up to and even beyond $300,000 hospitalisation bills! And that's for just one person! If i have 30,000 such clients laying in hospitals in a year, I would be in deep sh#t, and will have to kickass on the medical industrial complex for overcharging my clients or try to get them to rationalise costs.

Gimme a banking license please, rather than the insurance company. The pressure is immense and furthermore, with insurance company, its the govt that determines the rate and acceptance of clients, not me.

But if no banking license avaliable, then no choice, I will take a chance on the insurance deal, work extra harder to get 9% daily and hope i get lucky everyday.

My point is - see the difference between banking and insurance? Bankers lose nothing, pure fun and games at the people's expense, and can control the world, but insurance is something serious, which no govt and people can do without and is a biz enterprise only the bold and courageous dare undertake.


Well fortunately I do medical billing for my day profession.

The insurance industry does not have it so bad, reason being is they dictate policy to
providers and customers alike.

A provider wants patients in a vastly insurance based market they are subject to
the policies an PERSCRIBED DISCOUNT contracted fee stipulated by the companies.

The patients/customers/punks are subject to the legal stipulations of the insurance companies which varies very little from company to company, the millionish dollar buy in to challenge a company successfully/fully... MISINFORMATION and frustration are
the insurance companies greatest ally, you get five different answers from five different
departments in hopes you give up or die first...


-----

Basically they pay the doctors half of what they charge the POOL, poof money for nothing, then they increase their bureaucracy and in my STRONG opinion create dysfunction in their relations with all outsiders to justify higher cost. They redesign and
"STREAMLINE" all the time to keep everyone perpetually confused, once again that
"work" stays in house and justifies more $$$ from the punks.

ITs all wonderful really



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 01:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Society needs no manager.


I am sorry but I really don't get this concept, I mean I get it but I do not see any evidence to point to legitimacy of this notion.

In cambodia and somalia we witnessed society without "management" and
what came of it? In both cases free market principles flourished for a time,
but in both cases tyranny ensued, much death, no rules, sell your roasted monkey,
give your daughter for your wifes life, money and power determined who's agenda
was dictated... You want food, give me your son to fight in my army, of course I suggest this AMERICAN form of coercion would be far more sophisticated.

"I CAN systematically buy all your access to service and rule you like my bitch,
you want water? I own the pipes bucko, if you don't buy my friends electricity you don't get water... What cha gonna do???" I have a contract and lawyers for days...
Are you gonna manage?





[edit on 23-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 01:51 AM
link   
Mish Shedlock summed it up nicley here.

globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com...



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 01:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by aravoth

Society needs no manager.


I am sorry but I really don't get this concept, I mean I get it but I do not see any evidence to point to legitimacy of this notion.

In cambodia and somalia we witnessed society without "management" and
what came of it? In both cases free market principles flourished for a time,
but in both cases tyranny ensued, much death, no rules, sell your roasted monkey,
give your daughter for your wifes life, money and power determined who's agenda
was dictated...



Using somalia as a barometer for a regulation free zone is akin to using North Korea as a Regulation only zone.

One could say, that the end game of regulation is North Korea, very much like you say the end game of no regulation is Somalia.

Both of which are extremely bad examples, and you know that.

But if you must, here .............




"Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has managed to survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless services in most major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on the continent. In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange services have sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million and $1 billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers a variety of goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels continue to operate, and militias provide security."


read the full article here mises.org...

[edit on 23-4-2010 by aravoth]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 02:01 AM
link   
reply to post by aravoth
 


No doubt -- slavery is the ultimate Free Market!

www.financialpost.com...



HARADHEERE, Somalia -- In Somalia's main pirate lair of Haradheere, the sea gangs have set up a cooperative to fund their hijackings offshore, a sort of stock exchange meets criminal syndicate. Heavily armed pirates from the lawless Horn of Africa nation have terrorized shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean and strategic Gulf of Aden, which links Europe to Asia through the Red Sea. The gangs have made tens of millions of dollars from ransoms and a deployment by foreign navies in the area has only appeared to drive the attackers to hunt further from shore. It is a lucrative business that has drawn financiers from the Somali diaspora and other nations -- and now the gangs in Haradheere have set up an exchange to manage their investments. Read more: www.financialpost.com...


www.amazon.com...

[edit on 23-4-2010 by drew hempel]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 02:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by aravoth
 


No doubt -- slavery is the ultimate Free Market!



I guess you would enjoy the life of a sweatshop worker, or waiting in bread lines for your government handout.

You are a slave. The free market has nothing to do with that.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 02:13 AM
link   
reply to post by David9176
 


Seems simple enough. The people who caused the problem, now want to punish people who did not.

It's like a bunch of kittens trying to suck milk out of their mothers teat after its all gone. Of course kittens are really dumb.

What part of the money is all gone, don't they understand. These geniuses who teach our children and run our government offices. 100% of nothing is nothing. It's really simple math.

(chorus)
Gimme, gimme, gimme
Don't make me earn it
gimme, gimme, gimme
Steal it from someone else
gimme, gimme, gimme
Don't stop paying me more than I'm worth
gimme, gimme, gimme
Take it from somebody else
gimme, gimme, gimme
People who work hard are stupid
gimme, gimme, gimme
Studying is not important
gimme, gimme, gimme
Let the suckers do it for me
gimme, gimme, gimme
I teach the children lies so they will
gimme, gimme, gimme
I'm too lazy to get a real job
gimme, gimme, gimme
So invent me a useless government job
gimme, gimme, gimme
Pay me way to much
gimme, gimme, gimme
I'll be back next week demanding more



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 02:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by aravoth


Both of which are extremely bad examples, and you know that.

But if you must, here .............




"Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has managed to survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless services in most major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on the continent. In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange services have sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million and $1 billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers a variety of goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels continue to operate, and militias provide security."


read the full article here mises.org...

[edit on 23-4-2010 by aravoth]


Then we have this, less than a year ago


After months of hopeful glimmers in one of the most explosive countries in the world, violence again is roiling Somalia as mortars, machine-gun fire and rockets pound the bloodstained capital.

More than 100 people, mostly civilians, have been slaughtered in a week and thousands are streaming out of Mogadishu as insurgents close in on the presidential palace.


In Somalia power is asserted with guns

I suggest that in America it will be done with the infrastructure of business.

So you are right, but I do not have any other modern examples to cite really. IF I can control your access to "things" and stipulate my terms to your access, I can control and dictate to you can I not? Please explain how you can circumvent my power if I control your access? Lets say I own you mainline water pipes today, the local sources of water and I want to charge you 10 times yesterdays rates, what are you gonna do?

Tell me?



[edit on 23-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 02:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by David9176
 


Seems simple enough. The people who caused the problem, now want to punish people who did not.

It's like a bunch of kittens trying to suck milk out of their mothers teat after its all gone. Of course kittens are really dumb.

What part of the money is all gone, don't they understand. These geniuses who teach our children and run our government offices. 100% of nothing is nothing. It's really simple math.

(chorus)
Gimme, gimme, gimme
Don't make me earn it
gimme, gimme, gimme
Steal it from someone else
gimme, gimme, gimme
Don't stop paying me more than I'm worth
gimme, gimme, gimme
Take it from somebody else
gimme, gimme, gimme
People who work hard are stupid
gimme, gimme, gimme
Studying is not important
gimme, gimme, gimme
Let the suckers do it for me
gimme, gimme, gimme
I teach the children lies so they will
gimme, gimme, gimme
I'm too lazy to get a real job
gimme, gimme, gimme
So invent me a useless government job
gimme, gimme, gimme
Pay me way to much
gimme, gimme, gimme
I'll be back next week demanding more




(Verse) 6/8

"Yoouuuuu scum---

A leach amoungst men

You teach awlll the children

And pay for the pens

While IIIIIIIIIIIII

Sell Chi-nese lead toys

fixing the brainzzzz

for the girls and-the- boyzzz"

YAYHAAA!

God Bless America


Remember, frozen chickens can't have childrenz

[edit on 23-4-2010 by Janky Red]



new topics

top topics



 
13
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join