It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

15,000 protest to RAISE taxes and to "Chop from the Top"

page: 4
13
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 09:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by Janky Red


See I think you are advocating for the same

you are the follow who thinks capital should trump democracy

Why do you defend the mega producers and then claim to be against their dominance
in society?



[edit on 22-4-2010 by Janky Red]


I don't defend them. I am pointing out the fact that with zero government involvement they can't exist.


But previously you stated capital should dictate the market

You sound like you don't care if the rich dictate as long as the government is out of the process.




posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 09:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by Isosceles


Sadly the teaparty members are protesting against themselves and fighting to save the existing system that you speak of in a way. While the obama healthcare package may have been subpar, the chance to provide all Americans with affordable healthcare through taxation doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. In fact, this is what the rest of the first world and beyond is accustomed to, and while problems do exist, they are far better than the alternative. Not being able to access healthcare at all. Or accessing healthcare, but losing their home in the process.




Obama's Healthcare bill is not government run health insurance. It forces all Americans to purchase healthcare from a government provider. Basically all those HMO's and "big" insurance companies that the Fed's railed against while promoting that healthcare bill all of them now have a steady supply of taxpayer money going into the corporate coffers.

Again, you get what you ask for. The people tried to get the government to give them something for free, something to save them from corporations, and they wound up making those corporations immensely more wealthy and powerful.

Which brings me back to my previous point, which you can read about in the above posts.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by skunknuts


I see no consistent ideology on your part. You sound like a communist one minute, and a corporatist the next.

Best,
Skunknuts


Thats because the only way you can see a society functioning is through central planning. So for you, Ideologies are broken down into simple packages.

If one show vitriol for a corporation and call for the abolishing off all corporations throughout the land. In your head, you tag me as a communist.

But when I say that the way to abolish those corporations and the influence they have is to abolish the government. You think I'm in bed with big business.

It's confusing for you, because don't see the correlation between the two. You think the Government is good, and corporations are bad. But you don't seem to understand that Corporations are creations of the government, and literally can't exist without the government. And more often than not, Governments do most of their dirty work through those corporations.



I do see from where you are coming. I'm just trying to be a realist in terms of my vision for the best compromise that allows the most free society (which in my mind allows one to fail w/o it being suicidal, get sick w/o it being deadly or cause for bankruptcy, and a good chance at succeeding economically and spiritually w/ hard work, smarts, and personality) while maintaining a needed sense of order.

This cannot be done without considering human behavior (part of which is being a political animal). Do we really need to throw the baby out with the bath water?

So, are you an anarchist?

Best,
Skunknuts

[edit on 4/22/2010 by skunknuts]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:04 PM
link   
reply to post by Isosceles
 


Excellent post. Couldn't agree more. Applause worthy.



Never a good outcome. Never a good outcome at all.


Too many here don't seem to realize what is on the horizon if all of these cuts to education and social programs continue. The elderly, disabled, our youth, really everyone from all walks of life and extremes are dependent upon government help.

The silent majority has still mostly been silent...save for tea party protesters...

The REAL anger will come if things do not change.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by Isosceles


Sadly the teaparty members are protesting against themselves and fighting to save the existing system that you speak of in a way. While the obama healthcare package may have been subpar, the chance to provide all Americans with affordable healthcare through taxation doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. In fact, this is what the rest of the first world and beyond is accustomed to, and while problems do exist, they are far better than the alternative. Not being able to access healthcare at all. Or accessing healthcare, but losing their home in the process.




Obama's Healthcare bill is not government run health insurance. It forces all Americans to purchase healthcare from a government provider. Basically all those HMO's and "big" insurance companies that the Fed's railed against while promoting that healthcare bill all of them now have a steady supply of taxpayer money going into the corporate coffers.

Again, you get what you ask for. The people tried to get the government to give them something for free, something to save them from corporations, and they wound up making those corporations immensely more wealthy and powerful.

Which brings me back to my previous point, which you can read about in the above posts.


Of course you failed to mention that the lobby threw immense cash at the "right"
to warn about the dangers of a STATE plan. Reason USED to be this would price the private market out and slaughter of grannies, but now that the danger of socialism has passed we are safe to reframe the process we all witnessed.

I do agree the mandate is a bad idea, while I also recognize where this solution came from... Fight the socialisms

I am saving up chickens for my next doctor visit

[edit on 22-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:11 PM
link   
reply to post by aravoth
 


BTW

thanks for coming into this pit full of unfriendlies

I have spent much time conceptualizing ideas like yours, unfortunately
I keep encountering the same questions I have posed to you.

It is too bad procedure scuttles outcome



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red


But previously you stated capital should dictate the market

You sound like you don't care if the rich dictate as long as the government is out of the process.


I didn't say capital should dictate anything.

I pointed out that the market demands a means of exchange beyond that of bartering. Money is that means of exchange, historically, gold, to be precise.

Capital is not money.

In the Banking world, (I use this example because it is the one that is killing us) Capital is "money for a price" Or Loans. A loan is fiat borrowed against a debt, other wise known as "the most unsustainable banking model in human history."

Money is solid, it's price cannot be dictated by the people that reside in the halls of power. It's price is dictated by the market. Not by a government sponsored Corporate Banker.

Money is a reflection of labor and wealth. Capital is sorcerers attempt at "making money work for him". It is a modern day philosophers stone. And that is why this system was always doomed to failure. No inanimate object can work. The idea that "money" can make more of itself is ludicrous. Nevertheless, that is what they attempted to do, and that is why it's all falling apart.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:17 PM
link   


OPPS

I mean...




posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red


Of course you failed to mention that the lobby threw immense cash at the "right"
to warn about the dangers of a STATE plan. Reason USED to be this would price the private market out and slaughter of grannies, but now that the danger of socialism has passed we are safe to reframe the process we all witnessed.


[edit on 22-4-2010 by Janky Red]


I mentioned the "right". The term "Government" does not exclude either party.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by skunknuts


I do see from where you are coming. I'm just trying to be a realist in terms of my vision for the best compromise that allows the most free society (which in my mind allows one to fail w/o it being suicidal, get sick w/o it being deadly or cause for bankruptcy, and a good chance at succeeding economically and spiritually w/ hard work, smarts, and personality) while maintaining a needed sense of order.

This cannot be done without considering human behavior (part of which is being a political animal). Do we really need to throw the baby out with the bath water?

So, are you an anarchist?

Best,
Skunknuts

[edit on 4/22/2010 by skunknuts]


Yes, but the issue with government economic models is that they attempt to predict market forces, which is impossible, because human behavior is impossible to predict.

The issue with maximizing freedom is simple. Government infringes on liberty, period. As a Government can only rule by force. Break the law? Go to jail, Don't pay your taxes? Loose your house, go to jail. Spank your child? Loose your family. Indeed, it seems that Government is the only thing within society that is not bound by any laws. It is free to extort, steal and murder without recourse, and it does, quite often in fact.

The reason Government cannot provide a people with freedom is because it is an oxymoron.

Liberty and Anarchy are natural States of being, it is impossible to "enforce" either of them.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by aravoth]

[edit on 22-4-2010 by aravoth]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:28 PM
link   
"Ed Geppert, president of the Illinois Federations of Teachers, whose members in blue T-shirts filled streets and sidewalks outside the Capitol, said, "Look at how big this crowd is! There are 15,000-plus people."


I have a feeling this was in actuality a rather marginal protest with highly exaggerated 'estimations' of the crowd number. Any firm numbers other than the posted article? Given the crowd sizes in the video plus lack of any valid coverage, I remain sceptical as to this being significant.

From the posted article:"About 76 people met at Peoria Stadium early Wednesday morning to board two buses for Springfield."



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by Janky Red


But previously you stated capital should dictate the market

You sound like you don't care if the rich dictate as long as the government is out of the process.


I didn't say capital should dictate anything.

I pointed out that the market demands a means of exchange beyond that of bartering. Money is that means of exchange, historically, gold, to be precise.

Capital is not money.

In the Banking world, (I use this example because it is the one that is killing us) Capital is "money for a price" Or Loans. A loan is fiat borrowed against a debt, other wise known as "the most unsustainable banking model in human history."

Money is solid, it's price cannot be dictated by the people that reside in the halls of power. It's price is dictated by the market. Not by a government sponsored Corporate Banker.

Money is a reflection of labor and wealth. Capital is sorcerers attempt at "making money work for him". It is a modern day philosophers stone. And that is why this system was always doomed to failure. No inanimate object can work. The idea that "money" can make more of itself is ludicrous. Nevertheless, that is what they attempted to do, and that is why it's all falling apart.



But isn't free market without rule basically?

In my translation you are saying the Market would create/dictate the rules, not officials.

anyhow

There is a new menace, which is binary code...

Money is dead, our bank notes are junk -

Answer me this, considering that "money" is becoming digital, how can free market
principles be applied to the binary age? Who creates the standard?



[edit on 22-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:29 PM
link   
reply to post by aravoth
 


How ironic that all the "free market" rhetoric is from "supply side economics" -- GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS FOR THE MILITARY predict the market. Government subsidies for agribusiness, etc. The corporations control the regulatory boards. Government is considered a "voluntary position" by the corporate elite -- just a temporary revolving door. There is no free market.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by aravoth
 


How ironic that all the "free market" rhetoric is from "supply side economics" -- GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS FOR THE MILITARY predict the market. Government subsidies for agribusiness, etc. The corporations control the regulatory boards. Government is considered a "voluntary position" by the corporate elite -- just a temporary revolving door. There is no free market.


yes, indeed, there is no free market. Which is why it is mind boggling to me that people still attempt to lay blame on the free market for the current crisis.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 10:40 PM
link   
reply to post by Janky Red
 

Everyone creates the standard. Banking as we know it would not exist. I'm sure that fractional reserve banks would still exist for a while, but no one would use them. Banks would probably revert back to being near 100% reserve, because people would have lost trust in money. as they are loosing trust in it as we speak.

Once all the digital money and funny monopoly money is demonetized, the market will choose the means of exchange.

Look at what happened in Argentina when it's currency collapsed. The economy still existed, restaurants still operated, and business still functioned, it just turned to barter, then to metals.

The market would create the rules. But remember, the market doesn't dictate by what is being sold, it dictates by what is being bought.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by aravoth]



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red
YAY!

And the free marketeers of the world have done such a good job being the default stewards of the economy!

Oh and these Pillars have created great stuff too boot! Binary money is edible


BTW we are talking about bombs are we?



Oh yeah what a free market we have, with all of the multinational corporations, endless regulations, taxes, federal oversight and corporately controlled government corruption that all make it so easy to do business.

Free markets are just grand, aren't they?



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by Janky Red
 


The market would create the rules. But remember, the market doesn't dictate by what is being sold, it dictates by what is being bought.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by aravoth]


Well a simple example, is airlines moving to an all credit system onboard

Obviously done for ease and simplification of the credit transaction

More airlines are moving towards this model

So, basically it means

I have to have good credit

I then have to been in possession of a card

so in this equation, boiled down I have to meet the business's standard, they dictate the terms of sale and purchase.

The people with credit cards and there participation in the system further this dictate.

A. So my recourse is to go hungry and or file suit

OR

B. pass a law that forbids this practice based upon the fact that my cash is universally recognized as "money".

So if B is bad, I need a lawyer, lots of money and energy to address something as simple as a sandwich?

I have many examples where the COMPANY creates both sides of the contract, I am only free to take it really. Or buy a raft and a compass, lasso a giant bird of prey...



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by Riposte

Originally posted by Janky Red
YAY!

And the free marketeers of the world have done such a good job being the default stewards of the economy!

Oh and these Pillars have created great stuff too boot! Binary money is edible


BTW we are talking about bombs are we?



Oh yeah what a free market we have, with all of the multinational corporations, endless regulations, taxes, federal oversight and corporately controlled government corruption that all make it so easy to do business.

Free markets are just grand, aren't they?


I mean I could get the argument if there weren't so many real life examples I have encountered.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by Janky Red
I mean I could get the argument if there weren't so many real life examples I have encountered.


America is not a "free market" nor is it controlled nor run by "free marketeers."

There is little to no freedom at all.



posted on Apr, 22 2010 @ 11:11 PM
link   
In AZ, we are getting ready to vote for a One cent sales tax on may 18th, to temporarily raise the sales tax to offset the huge budget deficit. Police, teachers, fire fighters, etc. are being axed if this vote does not go thru.... I hope it fails and we can all let the games begin personally...

"If Prop. 100 is voted down, however, 15 to 20 percent of teacher positions may be eliminated, according to the Arizona Education Network."

"If Proposition 100 passes, the Willcox School District is looking at a $391,339 decrease from its current budget. This is what the state will cut, even if the proposition passes. If the sales tax does not pass, we add $571,593 to those cuts, which is $962,932 - nearly $1 million," said Jim Foley, the district's business manager. "That's 13 percent of our budget - it would be extremely devastating. I hate taxes, but I'll vote for this"



new topics

top topics



 
13
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join