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ADL releases Report Similar to SPLC

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posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 06:40 PM
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A kind reminder to discuss the topic.

While your discourse is interesting, it is not the point of the OP.

You want to debate WWII? Collaborate on a thread!

[edit on 23-4-2010 by Maxmars]




posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
A kind reminder to discuss the topic.

While your discourse is interesting, it is not the point of the OP.

You want to debate WWII? Collaborate on a thread!

[edit on 23-4-2010 by Maxmars]


There isn't anything to debate; to debate would admit that there is something unclear or ambiguous when all data and info suggest otherwise. I was merely chiming in to correct a historical inaccuracy.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by SpectreDC
And only a delusional twit would ignore the blatant fact that Russia fought well over 3/5 of the German army, fighting the largest war ever fought, resulting in more casualties that for any other war...

You're including the millions of Russians killed by Joe Stalin himself, right, as well as the thousands of Russian soldiers who were shot for retreating from the front line? No, Russia wasn't pushing Hitler back, the Russians weren't inspired enough to make it a noble effort. It was the Russian winter that drove back the German forces, just as the winter drove back Napoleon.

If not for the Allied front in Europe, dividing Hitlers resources and manpower, even Russia would be speaking German today. Without America in Europe, Russia would have been just another casualty of Hitler's quest for world domination.


Originally posted by SpectreDC
I'm not a "globalist". I'm not a soviet sympathizer. I like the truth, and while you can parrot high school history classes, every war historian will tell you that if it wasn't for the Soviet's, the allies would have lost WWII.

Really.

Let's say that America chose only to fight Japan in WWII... Which lead to the development of tactical nuclear weaponry. Are you seriously contending that Germany could have continued fighting had America targeted, say, Berlin with one of the first nuclear weapons?

Nobody else had The Bomb at that time, aside from the USA. Germany was still years away from perfecting the technology. And Russia couldn't have overthrown Hitler's forces alone using their conventional weaponry — that's absurd. But America could have ended it in one afternoon with one or two fissionable payloads.

"Every war historian" is full of hockey if he claims Germany could have continued fighting following a nuclear strike.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 06:53 PM
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On topic:

It's no surprise to me that ATS is being monitored by such people. What do you expect when a number of members on this site openly call for revolution and violence? And an even greater number of people appear to agree with such sentiments? In fact, the three quotes that made the ADL document are quite tame compared to some of the sentiment and statements I've seen expressed here.

You think just because you're on the internet, you can get away with making threats of violence without anyone taking note?

ATS has made a big mistake in aligning itself with these "Tea Party" morons. Over the past two years or so this site has become increasingly swamped and infected by the right-wing "Tea Party" types - this IMO has accelerated within the past year or so to the point where this no longer feels like a "conspiracy" site, more like a far-right "Tea Party" gathering.

It should come as no surprise that these people are being monitored as SOME of them clearly do have some quite dangerous and threatening ideals.

What's that quote again? "If you sleep with dogs, don't be surprised when you get fleas"?

Personally, I think ATS should banish politics from this site and revert back to what this site was originally created to discuss: conspiracies. But I guess that wouldn't pay the bills. All I know is that Tea-Party rhetoric and paranoia is not what this site was originally intended for.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 06:59 PM
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Right-O... As usual, I get involved in the derailing of an important thread. For that I do apologize.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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Actual, I'm not going to continue this.

second line

[edit on 23-4-2010 by SpectreDC]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by Lurch

You think just because you're on the internet, you can get away with making threats of violence without anyone taking note?


I see you aren't real clear on what legally constitutes a 'threat of violence' either.



ATS has made a big mistake in aligning itself with these "Tea Party" morons. Over the past two years or so this site has become increasingly swamped and infected by the right-wing "Tea Party" types - this IMO has accelerated within the past year or so to the point where this no longer feels like a "conspiracy" site, more like a far-right "Tea Party" gathering.


Nice. Can't discuss political issues without resorting to personal attacks on your opponent's alleged intellect, using fairly base terminology. Can you elaborate on what that says about your OWN intellect?



It should come as no surprise that these people are being monitored as SOME of them clearly do have some quite dangerous and threatening ideals.


No such thing as a threatening ideal, or idea either for that matter.

There are threatening statements, and threatening actions, but threatening IDEALS? If you feel threatened by the mere ideals of others, you may perhaps choose to limit your discourse with them so as to minimize that 'threatened' feeling.



Personally, I think ATS should banish politics from this site and revert back to what this site was originally created to discuss: conspiracies. But I guess that wouldn't pay the bills. All I know is that Tea-Party rhetoric and paranoia is not what this site was originally intended for.


By all means, censorship is always the answer, is it not? After all, Stalin thought so, Mao thought so, Hitler thought so etc - and with great minds like that thinking so, it must be right, eh?

one minor question, if I may. How do you propose to keep politics out of a discussion on conspiracy? Aren't politics sort of the BASIS of conspiracy?

Edit: for pesky spelling errors.

[edit on 2010/4/23 by nenothtu]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by Lurch
 


The problem is that now the site is obligated to defend them on principal, and in defense of free speech. In reality, the posters in question aren't innocent of beng ignorant and misguided, they just have the constitutional the right to be ignorant and misguided.

That's where the catch 22 is. The site and the moderators are noble enough to defend the posters' rhetoric, putting the site and their own reputations at risk against charges of anti-semetism, racism and worse, while the posters themselves aren't noble enough to think before they type, and reflect about being guests in ATS's forums.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by Lurch
 


You have been a member here for six years, and yet your record speaks for itself.
Your membership and posting record seems highly disengenuois.

It is apparent who the real operatives are with this attack on ATS members.


But that brings me to partnerships, and I want to close with that, because the ADL and DHS have had some good partnerships. In recent years, the Department has placed our employees in your advanced training school to educate us on the tactics used by extremists and terrorists; the strategies that may be used by law enforcement to deter, prevent and respond to incidents and threats; and to make us aware and sensitive to and cognizant of the civil rights and liberties that must be protected even while you are enforcing the law and conducting these very difficult investigations.


www.dhs.gov...

[edit on 23-4-2010 by burntheships]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I agree with you.
You cant ban politics.
Most Conspiracys stem from politics!!
And what with this current ''Tea Party'' stuff, its just the mainstream topic.
For example, just like HAARP is always associated with Earthquakes.
Topics change.
Agendas change.
Except todays agenda is whats disscussed in this thread.
The way the ADL fallacy trawl for suspicious chatter and deam it a threat, when in all honesty, its not.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
reply to post by Lurch
 


The problem is that now the site is obligated to defend them on principal, and in defense of free speech. In reality, the posters in question aren't innocent of beng ignorant and misguided, they just have the constitutional the right to be ignorant and misguided.

That's where the catch 22 is. The site and the moderators are noble enough to defend the posters' rhetoric, putting the site and their own reputations at risk against charges of anti-semetism, racism and worse, while the posters themselves aren't noble enough to think before they type, and reflect about being guests in ATS's forums.


That, sir, appears to be incorrect. Perhaps you could find the time to peruse the original ADL document, study the quotes (and perhaps more importantly, what was left OUT of them), then look up the original quotes in context?

You will likely find at that point that the quoted material is in no way, either expressly or implicitly, threatening in nature.

What it WAS was fodder for a propaganda mill, and a skillful propagandist can use ANY quote , sufficiently twisted up, to push an agenda.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Lurch
On topic: It's no surprise to me that ATS is being monitored by such people. What do you expect when a number of members on this site openly call for revolution and violence?... In fact, the three quotes that made the ADL document are quite tame compared to some of the sentiment and statements I've seen expressed here.

Quite so, which should be a wake-up call to everyone out there that this isn't about "vast right-wing conspiracies" or "violence-inciting" speech. It's about an attack on FREE SPEECH, which is what the ADL "report" IS.


Originally posted by Lurch
You think just because you're on the internet, you can get away with making threats of violence without anyone taking note?

Judging from the ATS quotes used in the ADL "report," they're not taking note of violent threats, they're taking note of ANY SPEECH that can be twisted and turned against the First Amendment.


Originally posted by Lurch
ATS has made a big mistake in aligning itself with these "Tea Party" morons. Over the past two years or so this site has become increasingly swamped and infected by the right-wing "Tea Party" types...

Actually, I'm not one of the "Tea Party types," but I understand that the Tea Partyers have as much right to openly voice their discontent with the government as anyone else, and I'll defend their right to say whatever they have to say. That's what America is SUPPOSED to defend, right.

Regarding the Tea Party message seeming to infect websites everywhere across the Internet, just think about what you're saying. The Tea Partyers have a valid gripe against the central government for not only taxing us without representation, but for forcing Americans to participate in a healthcare overhaul that is opposed by the majority of Americans in every independent poll.

Perhaps it's not an infection of Right-wing sentiment, but legitimate dissent on the part of the American People. What are we supposed to do — DENY all speech that dissents against a vastly unpopular Congress and its vastly unpopular (as well as unconstitutional) legislative antics?

You suggest that ATS ban political speech. But that's NOT the answer. Banning speech is tantamount to surrendering to the ADL types and the the anti-Free-Speech types who have infected our central government.

The answer is for the central government to GET OUT of the speech-monitoring business, as well as GET OUT of the business of "fixing" our economy and healthcare and everything else that should be left up to the individual States and the American People.

The central government and its shills in the ADL and SPLC and ACORN need to step down and leave the business of the American People to the American People.

No, we don't HAVE TO shut up and ban forums of free thought and free speech. That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what America needs.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Or I could also read the site everyday and understand that the posters in question have written far, far worse and the ADL researcher was too lazy to use the search function.

Let's cut the crap. The posters are not babes in the woods, woefully misunderstood by a cruel, hard world. They actually believe these things, they just don't like their beliefs advertised, and now the site has to wade through the mud defending their right to generalize and hyperventilate.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by brimstone735
 


Another member that registered six years ago, and your record speaks for itself.

Let us not forget that the ADL attempts to equate free thought and speech about 9/11 with Anti Semitism.

Five Years Later, Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Live On
www.adl.org...

[edit on 23-4-2010 by burntheships]



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Lurch

You think just because you're on the internet, you can get away with making threats of violence without anyone taking note?


I see you aren't real clear on what legally constitutes a 'threat of violence' either.



ATS has made a big mistake in aligning itself with these "Tea Party" morons. Over the past two years or so this site has become increasingly swamped and infected by the right-wing "Tea Party" types - this IMO has accelerated within the past year or so to the point where this no longer feels like a "conspiracy" site, more like a far-right "Tea Party" gathering.


Nice. Can't discuss political issues without resorting to personal attacks on your opponent's alleged intellect, using fairly base terminology. Can you elaborate on what that says about your OWN intellect?



It should come as no surprise that these people are being monitored as SOME of them clearly do have some quite dangerous and threatening ideals.


No such thing as a threatening ideal, or idea either for that matter.

There are threatening statements, and threatening actions, but threatening IDEALS? If you feel threatened by the mere ideals of others, you may perhaps choose to limit your discourse with them so as to minimize that 'threatened' feeling.



Personally, I think ATS should banish politics from this site and revert back to what this site was originally created to discuss: conspiracies. But I guess that wouldn't pay the bills. All I know is that Tea-Party rhetoric and paranoia is not what this site was originally intended for.


By all means, censorship is always the answer, is it not? After all, Stalin thought so, Mao thought so, Hitler thought so etc - and with great minds like that thinking so, it must be right, eh?

one minor question, if I may. How do you propose to keep politics out of a discussion on conspiracy? Aren't politics sort of the BASIS of conspiracy?

Edit: for pesky spelling errors.

[edit on 2010/4/23 by nenothtu]


My point is quite simple:

This site is being used as a soapbox and meeting place for "Tea Party" members, supporters and sympathisers. This demographic far outnumbers any other on ATS right now, having infiltrated the site at an ever-increasing rate for approximately 2 years now. This trend shows no sign in stopping, in fact it seems to be getting worse.

Clearly this trend has been picked up on by certain agencies and organisations out there, who have highlighted ATS as a site worth keeping a close eye on due to this specific demographic - some of whom have made threats of violence against specific individuals and the country as a whole. This monitoring is quite understandable, taking into account the large membership of this site, the large amount of "Tea Party" people on here and much of the sentiment and perceived threats expressed daily on this site.

If ATS doesn't like this attention and monitoring - there is really only one solution; Stop people making such threats. Stop allowing ATS to be turned into Tea Party HQ. This would probably be bad for business though. Also, seeing as ATS is a privately owned website, "freedom of speech" arguments do not come into play. The owner can ban any form of discussion he or she pleases.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Well, be assured, if we go to court on it, I'll be right there with you.


I'll be there too

course I may need bus fare
and a place to sleep
when going out of town

a nice hard garage floor
dont sound bad



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by burntheships
 


Yes, my record does speak for itself. I've been around long enough to remember when Stormfront used to try and infilitrate the forums and they were run out on a rail.

Now we share members.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
reply to post by burntheships
 


Yes, my record does speak for itself. I've been around long enough to remember when Stormfront used to try and infilitrate the forums and they were run out on a rail.

Now we share members.



You're about as transparent as a ghost, buddy. You're not fooling anyone.



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
You suggest that ATS ban political speech. But that's NOT the answer. Banning speech is tantamount to surrendering to the ADL types and the the anti-Free-Speech types who have infected our central government.

The answer is for the central government to GET OUT of the speech-monitoring business, as well as GET OUT of the business of "fixing" our economy and healthcare and everything else that should be left up to the individual States and the American People.

The central government and its shills in the ADL and SPLC and ACORN need to step down and leave the business of the American People to the American People.

No, we don't HAVE TO shut up and ban forums of free thought and free speech. That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what America needs.

— Doc Velocity


Of course you have the right to freedom of speech (as long as it does not break the terms and conditions of this website).

However, you shouldn't then be all outraged and surprised when certain organisations and agencies pick up on some of the inflammatory, dangerous and threatening comments certain Tea Party people have made on this website (and have been allowed to make without censure by the moderators and admin). Some of these comments are aimed at specific individuals and targets - of course that's going to raise a red flag, what do you expect?

Extremist muslims are allowed to post comments making threats against the United States government on their islamo-fascist websites.

Yet people on here would scream bloody murder if these people were not monitored and checked out by certain agencies.

Just as Tea-Partiers are allowed to post comments making threats against the United States government on this website.

Yet when certain agencies pick up on such comments and may or may not be "checking out" certain people on here...?

You see the hypocrisy?



posted on Apr, 23 2010 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by Lurch
This site is being used as a soapbox and meeting place for "Tea Party" members, supporters and sympathisers. This demographic far outnumbers any other on ATS right now, having infiltrated the site at an ever-increasing rate for approximately 2 years now. This trend shows no sign in stopping, in fact it seems to be getting worse.

And again I say, this is MAINSTREAM DISSENT against the central government, which is not only increasing on ATS but on websites and in forums all across the Internet.

I disagree that ATS is turning into "Tea Party Headquarters" any more than the Internet itself is turning into "Tea Party Headquarters"... Mainstream dissent IS what it IS, and it's appearing with increasing frequency in all outlets of Free Speech.

To DENY the discussion of unpopular topics (as perceived by the Liberal minority) is to SURRENDER our right to Free Speech because it makes the Liberal minority a bit queazy and nervous about their tenuous and unpopular agenda.

— Doc Velocity



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