Were the Knights Templars Jewish?

Good Evening! Hope everyone is well. Ever since i read Da Vinci Code, i have been fascinated with the Knights Templars and Freemasonry. I have always wondered if Jesus and Mary had a kid, and if they did, if they really went to France.

If Mary did go to France with Jesus' baby, could it be possible that there was a Royal Jewish line in france?

I also remember reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail (i believe) and they mentioned that Mary Magdalene was part of a royal family, possibly the Hasmonean lineage.

If this is true, and Mary was from Royal Bloodline and she had a baby and moved to France, isn't it possible that many people from France could be jewish?

en.wikipedia.org...

In the year 6 C.E. there were Jews at Vienne and Gallia Celtica; in the year 39 at Lugdunum [i.e. Lyon])." Further documents indicating the presence of Jews in France before the fourth century are as yet unknown.

So there were Jews in France around the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

Wouldn't it make sense, if the Romans destroyed your holy city that you would want to some day make it back there, especially if you heard there is something important buried in the old temple?

Is it possible that some of the original knights were of jewish decent and that is why they were obsessed with digging and searching in the temple for 9 years?

I would love to hear some thoughts on this, i don't really see anyone else looking at them from this point of view. It would make a lot of sense if you consider many other things. For example, if you believe that the Sinclair family, who built the Rosslyn Chapel, were descendants of Templars, why would they possibly build the church to mimic Solomon's temple?

www.philipcoppens.com...

There is only one inscription in the entire church, and it is a quote from the bible - unremarkable, were it not for the fact that the quote is directly related with Zerubabbel, the builder of the Second Temple of Jerusalem. Zerubabbel is a major figure in freemasonry: he set the Jews free from captivity and rebuilt the Temple of Solomon, the central focus of masonry. There is one depiction of a Masonic ritual, from the 19th Century, where the Apprentice Pillar has been used in a "boardgame" that marks the various steps of the initiation of a Scottish mason in his degree; the initiate is identified with Zerubabbel. Two authors with a more than casual interest in Rosslyn Chapel, Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight, have been claiming for several years that the chapel itself is based on the Temple of Solomon. Their main focus is on the west wall of the building. This, they claim, resembles the wall of the Temple of Solomon; rather than unfinished, they believe St Clair wanted it to look like that, to mimic the temple wall. They claim it could never have been part of a larger church - even though there are drawings of much larger church for the site - as the wall itself is non-weight-bearing and hence could never have supported the larger structure. So is there no hidden mystery?

Has anyone else thought of this or have read anything that would hint at this?

I commend you for thinking outside of the box.

Looking at the (wiki) history of the Knights Templar I find somewhat improbable. They killed people in the name of Christianity. They wore a large red cross across their body everyday. They were heavily endorsed by the Pope and European nobility.
Given these factors, the only two ways your premise would hold up that I can think of are:
1. Despite essentially devoting their mortal life on the surface to Christianity, they very secretly believed in Judaism and successfully deceived the Christian authorities of Europe. Just the magnitude of such a farce seems to me highly improbable.
2. Not only did they live double lives of faith but also too did their European nobility and Vatican.
As much as I like to entertain alternative ideas, I can think only these two scenarios and neither seem to be plausible.

Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking,

from Wikipedia.

I'm not going to explain why this might be (but quite assuredly is not) related but simply throw it out there.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


They would not have been Jewish when they started.

I have always suspected that the House of David went undergound after the Emperor Hadrian had them hunted down across the Roman empire in a reponse to the Bar Kochba revolt.

There is some evidence pointing to them taking up residence in Gaul and Brittania. I don't know if it has anything to do with Mary Magdalene or Iesous/Joshua.

I think they may have found something in the ruins of the Temple Mount that affected their beliefs. Something that either pushed them towards Judaism or Mandaeism. Maybe they rediscovered the House of David?

I have a theory that the House of David still operates today as a type of round table group. There may even be an order of Tzadikim that serve them. Its possible the Templars renounced their loyalty to Rome and swore allegiance to this House of David.

Mary Magdalene's line even could represent a third party, that the House of David considers as rivals.

So we could have this interesting struggle in the shadows between the House of David, the descendants of Mary Magdalene, and Catholic Orders such as the Jesuits and the Knights of Malta. I suspect there was a struggle like this during the Middle Ages and out of that religious struggle a new party emerged, a society of militant atheists that were sick of the religious nonsense.

So who knows?

Originally posted by Moonsouljah
I commend you for thinking outside of the box.

Looking at the (wiki) history of the Knights Templar I find somewhat improbable. They killed people in the name of Christianity. They wore a large red cross across their body everyday. They were heavily endorsed by the Pope and European nobility.
Given these factors, the only two ways your premise would hold up that I can think of are:
1. Despite essentially devoting their mortal life on the surface to Christianity, they very secretly believed in Judaism and successfully deceived the Christian authorities of Europe. Just the magnitude of such a farce seems to me highly improbable.
2. Not only did they live double lives of faith but also too did their European nobility and Vatican.
As much as I like to entertain alternative ideas, I can think only these two scenarios and neither seem to be plausible.

Thanks for the reply! I love your avatar, i need to watch more Trailer Park Boys!

As for your points...

1. It seemed that the Templars may have worshiped an alternative religion or multiple religions. When the templars were rounded up in 1307 on FRIDAY the 13th, many were tortured and many strange confessions were being told, mainly the worship of "baphomet"

www.experiencefestival.com...

Baphomet is an idol or image of a being typically described as demonic. The name first came to public consciousness as a part of the suppression of the Knights Templar. Baphomet - In the Templar confessions. During the judicial proceedings and inquisitions of the Knights Templar, assertions were made that the knights engaged in pagan idolatry.

Who knows what is true about the confessions. I have watched a lot of documentaries on the Templars and some think it was demonic, some think it could be decoded into the word Sophia which means "wisdom".

2. If they were jewish, they had a good reason to join the crusades. The Muslims had taken over Jerusalem and built their own Holy Land ontop of their own. This would be a great reasons to go in and kill as many people "in the name of god". Once the Muslims were gone, they could get their "holy land" back.

Also, it seems they found something in the ruins of Solomon's Temple and could have bribed the Vatican or shared the secrets with them, once again who knows.

Originally posted by Moonsouljah

Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking,

from Wikipedia.

I'm not going to explain why this might be (but quite assuredly is not) related but simply throw it out there.

Yes, i forgot to mention that. The templars pretty much invented Banking and invented Checks. AT the height of their power, they were the richest group in the world, arguably. If you joined the Templars, you were to give your property to the order and you were not suppose to have children, meaning the Templars would definitely inherit all your property.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


The Templars learned about banking from Muslims. The concept of Check writing began with the Muslims, even the word Check has its origins in Arabic.

I wouldn't take any confession provided through torture at face value.

Also note that the word Baphomet first appeared in European poetry as a corruption of the name Mohammed. So maybe they were crypto Muslims.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

They did live in alAqsa mosque in Jerusalem.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


S & F

THIS is the thread which made me log in -- In order to S & F

and if there were Thread of the Month -- this thread would get my vote


Read the opening post --- and it felt like the vital piece of the jig saw



going to read the rest now



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[edit on 21-4-2010 by Dock9]

' At dawn on Friday 13 October 1307, Philip's troops struck and rounded up the Templars, placing them under arrest, sequestrating their assets and confiscating their properties. This shock attack was meant to have two prime objectives: to wipe out the Templars for ever and to make available to the King the vast wealth that they had accumulated. However, neither of these aims was achieved. Those Templars who were caught were 'put to the question' -- tortured and subsequently burnt to death -- most notably the Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, who suffered death by fire on the Ile de la Cite in Paris in 1314, but many made good their escape. Nor was the much-vaunted treasure of the Templars ever found, its whereabouts remaining a mystery to this day. Those members of the Order who escaped found sancturay in a number of places. Scotland, at war with England, had not ratified the Papal Bulls dissolving the Order and as a result became a host to many who fled, some of whom fought on the side of the Scots at the Battle of Bannockburn. Portugal had cleared the Order of any wrongdoing and those Knights who found their way there simply reformed under the name 'The Knights of Christ', continuing in much the same fashion as they had in France. Their famous red-cross insignia was the flag under which both Vasco da Gama and Christopher Colombus sailed on their voyages of discovery in recognition of the Knights' partial patronage.

Although 1118 is the year in which it is believed that the Templars were formed, there has been recent conjecture that the Order may have been in existence long before that date and that its founded was for a specific purpose more related to discovering the true origins of Christianity than the protection of itinerant pilgrims. This is alluded to in part by two aspects the Tempars' specific practice of their own creed. One of the objects which they revered was the image of a decapitated head and from at least one of the Templar preceptories such a head fashioned from gilded silver, was removed. The connection that such an object may have with early Christianity is confirmed by the degree to which the Templars revered John the Baptist and, bizarrely for a group who had been lauded as the highest manifestation of the Christian ideal, shunned Jesus. Indeed there are records which show that some Knights thought of Jesus as a false prophet. Jean de Chaumes stated during his interrogation: ' You believe wrongly, because he is indeed a false prophet. Believe only in God in Heaven, and not in him', while Deodatus Jefet is on record as saying: ' Do not believe that the man Jesus whom the Jews crucified in Outremer is God and that he can save you '

Perhaps the most extraordinary are the words of Fulk de Troyes, who claimed that he was told not to believe in the false prophet Christ, but on in a higher God. Shown a crucifix, he said: ' Set not much faith in this, for it is too young'

As had been the case with the Cathars during the Abligensian Crusade, the sexual practices of the Templars were also brought into question, with charges of homosexuality, teaching women how to abort and obscene kissing becoming intermingled with accusations of denying Christ and spitting on the Cross. Indeed the connection with the Cathars is far more that of shared spurius accusation by demented anti-heretics. For at about the same time that the Cathars were seeking sactuary in the isolated villages of the Languedoc, the Knights Templar were fast becoming the biggest landowners of the same area. As much as the area around Rennes-le-Chateau was a Cathar stronghold, so also was it a bastion of Templar activities with, at one time, up to a third of the Templar landholdings being in the Languedoc. The remains of many Templar castles can still be found in the area and, as contemporaries, many Knights would have come from Cathar families and vice versa.

Another factor in the progrom against the Templars is of great interest. During the interrogation of those soldier-monks who were captured, one name recurs, Baphomet. This name, intoned by many before they were burned to death or as the result of the application of thumscrews and yet more horrific torture, has long been a mystery. It has been thought to be variously the name of the the revered severed-head image, the name of a devil - sometimes a cat - worshipped by the Knights or a corruption of the name Muhammed resulting from their contact with Arabic influences during the Crusades. One other explanation is that is is a bastardized form of the Arabic 'abufihmat', or, 'Father of Wisdom'. This last definition may be close to the truth, for recent work on the Dead Sea Scrolls has revealed the used of a code called the Atbash Cipher which, if applied to the word 'Baphomet', gives the translation 'Sophia'. As we know from the Pistis Sophia in the Codex Askewianus, this is the Greek word for 'wisdom', although why, and perhaps more intriguingly, how, the Knights Templar were using a code that had been employed more than 1,000 years before their own founding remains a mystery. A possible answer to the question 'why' may be that offered by the authors Richard Andrews and Paul Schellenberger. In their controversial and much-criticised work they postulate that, given the vehemence with which any Gnostic thought was being quelled, any reference to Sophia -- a focus of Gnostic attention through association with Mary Magdalene, linked to the Kabbalah through Chokmah, an Old Testament feminine figure who was throught of as being not only the partner but also the adviser to God and also through the references to both the Egyptian Isis and the Greek Athena -- would be sure to attract unwanted attention and therefore such allusions were hidden by the Templars using the Atbash Cipher.

One final point on this issue is another strangely coincidental set of circumstances. Hugues de Payen, the founder of the Order of the Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, was from the region around Troyes and, as was mentioned earlier, was a vassal of the Count of Champagne. Two of the other original Knights were also associated with the area and were bondsmen of the same Count and evidence suggests that these three knew each other before the formation of the Order. There had also been at Troyes a Kabbalist school, founded by the Rabbi Rashi, which had existed in the town since the mid-eleventh century -- the same town not only in which the Order was founded but also in which it was officially recognized at the Council of Troyes in 1128. And it was in the same town that Chretien de Troyes not only wrote one of the earliest (and possibly the first) of the Grail stories, but from which he also took his name

There is no doubt that the Grail legends, based as they are now acknowledged to be on older Celtic and pagan tales, are anything but highly symbolic versions of a Christian story.

...... Mary Magdalene herself is said to have been a regular visitor to Rennes-les-Bains - the original name for which was Les Bains de Rennes at the time when Rennes-le-Chateau was just called Rennes -- just along the valley, where the warm springs have attracted visitors since before Roman times. Rhedae, the original name of the area -- was regarded as a sacred site by the Celtic tribe of the Redones who lived there and who gave it this name. During the 5th and 6th centuries what is now a small village was a thriving town of some 30,000 inhabitants and seems to have been the northern capital of the empire ruled by the Visigoths and the country town of the diocese of Rhedenium. In the Middle Ages it was a bastion .... of Templar landholdings (also of the Cathars) "

Goes on to discuss how Hitler's Chancellorship provided Himmler the opportunity to pursue and propagate his Thule Society interests, which led to German miners being brought to investigate Rennes-le-Chateau as result of Wagner's specific interest in the region relating to certain documents

Re: the Languedoc, the author states: ' The whole area is ripe with curious place names and architectural anomalies which seem to conspire together in some ancient mystery. For instance, a recurring motif in many of the churches in the area is the Star of David which features in stone windows or as an adornment to exterior stonework '.
(these include the cathedral at Alet-les-Baines, six kilometres north of Rennes-le-Chateau and the cathedral at Limoux and the Cathedral of St.Vincent at Carcassonne)

Author writes: ' Stranger still is the anomaly in what was only ever a Roman Catholic place of worship: the intricate carvings on a stone captial found within the grounds of the cathedral at Alet-les-Bains. Now stolen along with many other artefacts, the capital bore symbols and designs which have only ever been associated with Hinduism.* It had at its centre a depiction of the god Ganesh and carved elephants. Indeed the whole village bears evidence of non-Christian symbolism '

(note: Alet-les-Bains was also once known as the home of the parents of Nostradamus ... there has been much conjecture through the ages to suggest he visted the town during the Middle Ages as it was known to be an alchemical centre of some reknown. The Stars of David which form the windows of the church, in addition to their obvious Judaic connection, may also be reference to this history, this symbol being known to represent the alchemical unification of the male and female principles ' )

* At this point, naturally, I'm sure some of us at least are remembering the claims that Jesus died and was buried in what was India. A tomb claimed to be that of Jesus still exists and is guarded by an hereditary guard (this function being passed down, father to son, allegedly all through the ages)


excerpted from The Arcadian Cipher' by Peter Blake and Paul S. Blezard. Copyright 2000. ISBN: 0 283 07288


[edit on 21-4-2010 by Dock9]

An interesting thread op! S&F for ya! The Templars founders being of Jewish descent is an interesting theory.I think it would explain there eventual downfall Phillpe the fair and the pope clearly searching for something during the purge and never found it.

Originally posted by Dock9
Author writes: ' Stranger still is the anomaly in what was only ever a Roman Catholic place of worship: the intricate carvings on a stone captial found within the grounds of the cathedral at Alet-les-Bains. Now stolen along with many other artefacts, the capital bore symbols and designs which have only ever been associated with Hinduism.* It had at its centre a depiction of the god Ganesh and carved elephants. Indeed the whole village bears evidence of non-Christian symbolism '

(note: Alet-les-Bains was also once known as the home of the parents of Nostradamus ... there has been much conjecture through the ages to suggest he visted the town during the Middle Ages as it was known to be an alchemical centre of some reknown. The Stars of David which form the windows of the church, in addition to their obvious Judaic connection, may also be reference to this history, this symbol being known to represent the alchemical unification of the male and female principles ' )

* At this point, naturally, I'm sure some of us at least are remembering the claims that Jesus died and was buried in what was India. A tomb claimed to be that of Jesus still exists and is guarded by an hereditary guard (this function being passed down, father to son, allegedly all through the ages)


excerpted from The Arcadian Cipher' by Peter Blake and Paul S. Blezard. Copyright 2000. ISBN: 0 283 07288

Wow, thank you so much for logging in and posting! Thank you again if you typed that from your book, very awesome post! You gave me so much to think about...

Wow. Hmm.. lol don't even know where to start.

I did a quick google image search for "Cathedral at Alet les bains" and found some interesting stuff. Here is the star of david from the church:

www.cassiopaea.org...

I will post more in a bit, i have to really re-read your post and think about all this. I think my head is going to explode. So cool

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Beastmaster -- it gave me some typing practice (badly needed, if the number of mistakes is any indication). Unfortunately, not everything is available online. Something to be said for the printed word, although book-storage is always at a premium. Gave hundreds of books away to charity-shops twice last year and again this year, as well as donating over 60 boxes to the local library. But held a few back, amongst them several which pertain to this thread-topic

Here now is an excerpt from 'When and How Was the Jewish People Invented' by Professor Schlomo Zand/Sand, an Israeli-born jew who teaches at Tel Aviv university. Worth reading the full article, particularly in the interests of context, and I'll link several more

Surprisingly, Sand said, most of his academic colleagues in Israel have shied away from tackling (i.e., from attempting to debunk) his arguments. One exception is Israel Bartal, a professor of Jewish history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Writing in Haaretz, the Israeli daily newspaper, Bartal made little effort to rebut Sand's claims. He dedicated much of his article instead to defending his profession, suggesting that Israeli historians were not as ignorant about the invented nature of Jewish history as Sand contends.

And what does Sand contend ?

The biggest surprise during his research came when he started looking at the archaeological evidence from the biblical era.

"I was not raised as a Zionist, but like all other Israelis I took it for granted that the Jews were a people living in Judea and that they were exiled by the Romans in 70 AD.

"But once I started looking at the evidence, I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends.]

electronicintifada.net...

Other sources:

www.haaretz.com...

www.alternet.org...

mondediplo.com...


Another very interesting and informative article, this time concerning Massada. Included here as yet another example of how priestly-classes (all religions) weave silk purses from sows' ears, the better to render their flocks obedient 'believers'

www.sott.net...



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And as we learn from the site you linked:

Although scholars have attempted to trace the Star of David back to King David himself; to Rabbi Akiva and the Bar Kokhba ("son of the star") rebellion (135 C.E.); or to *kabbalists, especially Rabbi Isaac Luria (16th century), no Jewish literature or artifacts document this claim

The cathedral at Alet-let-Bains

... was only ever a Roman Catholic place of worship

. Yet as the photo shows, the stained-glass window is clearly the six-pointed Star of David (or Hexagram)

But Professor Schlomo Sand asserts (and Jewish historians and academics apparently concur) that David ' was a myth, a legend' ---- as was King Solomon !

The following is a quote from the site you very kindly linked:

The earliest known Jewish use of the hexagram was as a seal in ancient Israel (6th century B.C.E.) and then eight centuries later in a *synagogue frieze in Capernaum. But these early hexagrams may have been only ornamental designs; ironically, a swastika, another popular ancient motif, appears alongside the hexagram on the Capernaum synagogue wall.

In the Middle Ages, hexagrams appear frequently on churches, but rarely in synagogues or on Jewish ritual objects. It was the *menorah that served as the primary Jewish symbol from antiquity until the post-Renaissance period, not the " Jewish star."

Although scholars have attempted to trace the Star of David back to King David himself;

--- the mythical, legendary David, that is

to Rabbi Akiva and the Bar Kokhba ("son of the star") rebellion (135 C.E.); or to *kabbalists, especially Rabbi Isaac Luria (16th century), no Jewish literature or artifacts document this claim.

All evidence suggests that the early use of the hexagram was limited to "practical Kabbalah. Kabbalistic Legends connect this symbol with the "Seal of Solomon," the magical signet signet ring used by King Solomon

--- the mythical, legendary King Solomon ---

to control demons and spirits. The star inscribed on these rings was usually called the "Seal of Solomon." In addition to such legends about Solomon's ring, medieval Jewish magical texts spoke of a magic shield possessed by King David

--- again, the mythical, legendary King David ---

which protected him from his enemies. According to these texts, the shield was inscribed with the seventy-two letter name of God, or with Shaddai (Almighty) or angelic names, and was eventually passed down to Judah Maccabee. The 15th-century kabbalist, Isaac Arama, claimed that Psalm 67, later known as the "Menorah Psalm" because of its *seven verses (plus an introductory verse), was engraved on David's shield in the form of a menorah. Another tradition suggests that Isaiah 11:2, enumerating the six aspects of the divine spirit, was inscribed on the shield in the outer six triangles of the hexagram. In time, the hexagram replaced this menorah in popular legends about David's shield, while the five-pointed pentagram became identified with the Seal of Solomon.

The hexagram was also widely regarded as a messianic symbol, because of a legendary connection with David, ancestor of the *Messiah

From this, we gather that Jewish academics, theologians and historians have been unable to uncover any artifacts or documentation to substantiate either the mythical Kings David or Solomon or kabbalists or rabbinical practitioners of, as the origins of the Star of David/Hexagram

But we know that like the swastika, the Hexagram has a history lost in time. And we see the Alet-les-Bains cathedral has Hexagrams as prominent features. Yet Alet-les-Bains cathedral was only ever a Roman Catholic place of worship, i.e., was not converted from the ruins of an earlier church of other religious-denomination. If we're to accept this assertion as fact, the mystery of why a Roman Catholic cathedral would commission stained-glass windows bearing the Star of David/Hexagram, remains. Unless some or all of the above information is incorrect (deliberately or other) ? Perhaps, as has often been asserted, the Roman church has far greater ties with Judaism than it would wish its followers to realise ? (remembering here the 'Jewish Popes')

Or perhaps, underlying both the Roman and Jewish religions, resides something far more ancient, with one of its few visible elements being the 'Star of David'/Hexagram ?

And what of the symbols and designs based in Hinduism (Ganesh, the elephant-god for example) which were once part of the 'was only ever a Roman Catholic place of worship' cathedral of Alet-les-Bains ?

Or, for that matter, who lavished fortune and favour upon Sauniere (of Renne le Chateau) and finally murdered him ?

What of the secret societies still active in the Languedoc --- which group do they most resemble, physically and otherwise ?

Secrets entwined with myth, legend and deliberate obfuscation ? Uh huh. Why ? The stakes must be high .... Who gains ? Who'd lose if the truth emerged (unlikely, considering the centuries-old determination to bury it) ?

As to the Templars and their repudiation of Christ and the accusations that they urinated upon portraits of him, and upon the crucifix --- which other group is featured on Youtube doing pretty much the same thing ?

Have to go out for a few hours, but if I get a chance, I'll post further from the book cited in my earlier post, re: the preponderance of Stars of David in the Languedoc geography



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[edit on 22-4-2010 by Dock9]

Theres another book I read that you guys might find just as interesting.

Its called "The Last Templar" by Raymond Khoury and explores a kind of alternate world in which the templars had power over the vatican by the balls with something they found underneath the temple mount. But I won't go any further to spoil the book for you guys.

I've always been curious if the freemasons are direct descendants of the knights templars....

Well, this does make one think,now doesn't it.

Christians in general worship the memory of a renegade Jewish rabbi,who had no desire to create a new religion but wanted to transform the Jewish traditions in to a more modern way of thinking.

Why would a group of militaristic religious zealots over a long period of time go to the holy land to drive out the Islamic people that held it?

For Christianity? I doubt it.Who did actually fund these incursions and why?

There were a lot of secret Jews masquerading as Christians particularly in Europe and particularly in Spain.

Another strange thing now that I think of it is the Masonic orders including the Shrine.

Their "temples" all have Arabic names for each one.The Shriners even wear maroon fez's which is the head gear worn in mostly North Africa by Muslims.

Even the truth about the Shroud of Turin has been hidden by the church for centuries.

The truth is that there was a Knight Templar that was a great leader and fierce warrior that was killed in a battle near Tyre in pesent day Israel.

They wrapped his body in a cloth banner probably removed from a Mosque and commandeered a ship that was in port and took his body by sea to Italy.

That is why the imprint is of the decaying but preserved body of a TALL bearded EUROPEAN looking man,and NOT of a man of middle eastern descent!

Even the way the body was enshrouded was how one would prepare a body for travel.

You would lay the cloth down,place the body on it then fold the cloth down over the body.There is a rear imprint of the shroud but it is never shown though.

They probably used multiple cloths and then packed the whole thing in salt to prevent decay during travel.

This would have drawn the bodily fluids out of the body causing the imprint on the most inner cloth!And it would have preserved the body too.!

It was probably discovered once they arrived in Italy.

That is most likely the origin of the shroud of Turin,truth be told.

That is also the truth that they the Freemasons hold over the Vatican!

[edit on 22-4-2010 by Oneolddude]

This thread is blowing my mind. Very quality.

The Knight's Templar were not Jewish, they were European. Sorry kid.

reply to post by Dock9


Thanks for posting that. It looks like we are on to something.

Yes the Rennes le Chateau area is fascinating. I actually have a book called "Montsegur and the Mystery of the Cathars" by Jean Markale and i have been saving this book to read for a rainy day. I think it my start pouring!

It is obvious that the Cathars, muslims and jews have been in France and Spain for a very long time. Yes i have heard that the Templars could have been influenced by the Muslims, but i don't really buy that. I am sure they dealt with them peacefully at times and probably wanted to learn about their faiths and beliefs. My gut feeling is that Westerns over the last 700 years have been trying to soil the Templars reputation by making up things that are not true about them.

I have heard that the Templars could have been the first to bring Tarot Cards into Europe, and also may have brought over Qaballah.

I agree with you about the books, i really love them! The internet can not compare to the quality of information found in books, they have sooooooo much more information. A Good internet page may have 10 pages worth of great information, compared to a book which could have 600 pages of amazing information! I am a book hoarder, trying to get rid of the subjects i feel i don't care about anymore but it is very tough.

I need to get some breakfast and coffee, i will come back and make a better reply!

Originally posted by Kojack
Theres another book I read that you guys might find just as interesting.

Its called "The Last Templar" by Raymond Khoury and explores a kind of alternate world in which the templars had power over the vatican by the balls with something they found underneath the temple mount. But I won't go any further to spoil the book for you guys.

I've always been curious if the freemasons are direct descendants of the knights templars....

The arc of the covenant that Moses had is there, according to legend.

There are stories that state the Templars found it and carried it off.

There are also OTHER conflicting stories, that state it was carried off into Africa hundreds of years prior to that.

There is no way to know, but it sure makes some sense and is a definite possibility.

Here is something interesting i found out of the book "Montsegur and the Mystery of the Cathars" by Jean Markale.

Now it's my turn to practice typing:-D

-------------------------------------------------
Part I: The Sights
Chapter 5: The Earldom of Razes
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It should also be noted that the Razes was often frequented by the Knights Templar, who had established a commandery in Bezu. It certainly seems that these Templars played a fairly ambiguous role at the time of the Albigensian crusade. In truth, they did not take part in it at all, apparently remaining on the sidelines for the entire affair. They did sign a treaty in 1209 with the Aniort family, owners of the Rennes le Chateau region, which consisted of a fictive transfer to the Templars of property belonging to the Aniort family and subject to royal seizure, in particular Lavaldieu and Coume Sourde, implying that the Templars had accepted the mission of aiding the Razes Cathars. They had performed a similar operation a century earlier with property owned by the Jews of Razes, for a document specifies that in 1142 the Jews had given their land to the Templars to be held as tenant farms.

In 1156 Bertrand de Blanchefort had been elected Grand Master of the Templar Order (Author's Note: It has been thought that he was a member of a Razes family, but in reality he belonged to the family of Blanchefort de Guyenne). It was then that the Templars living in Bezu established a veritable colony of German laborers - casters, to be exact - to work in the local mines. These lead, silver, copper and gold mines were, in truth, not very important and had already been exploited during the time of the romans. What is surprising here, however, is that the Templars invited not miners, which would appear logical, but casters. Exactly what kind of work was this? Intriguing, too is the fact that it was not local labor, or even French labor, that was recruited. It seems as though the intent was to use workers who spoke a foreign tongue that the local populace could not comprehend. It is easy to understand, then, why there are so many local traditions concerning a treasure hidden in the Rennes-le-Chateau area. Sometimes the legends tell of magic gold guarded by the devil in a cave beneath Blanchefort Castle. Sometimes they involve the cursed gold of Toulouse, and sometimes the treasure from the Temple of Jerusalem. Sometimes it is the Templar's lost treasure. It is even, sometimes, the Grail. But most frequently the tales refer to the Cathar treasure.

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**Author then goes into Montsegur, which is a fascinating story about the last stronghold of the Cathers. Very cool story and i should make a post on this subject later**
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We are certain, however, that the ANiort family provided protection to the Cathars and Templars in the Razes. The voisins family, established by the king as "guardian" of the Razes, was also on good terms with the Templars, and following the order's condemnation by Philip the Fair, a family member rescued some of the Templars, who then found refuge in Spain (my note: Columbus using Templar ships?!?).

Philip the Fair is exactly whom we find in the Razes in 1283. He was accompanying his father, King Philip the Bold, son of Saint Louis, on a journey through the Languedoc. The king made a stop at the home of Pierre de Voisins, lord of Rennes, who held sway over all of the Razes in the kings name. In making his visit to Pierre de Voisins, Philip the Bold's intention was to obtain the neutrality of the local lords, some of whom were vassals of the king of Aragon, in the war he was preparing against Aragon. But the king also visited Ramon d'Aniort's home, where he was warmly received by Aniort as well as by his wife, Alix de Blanchefort, and his younger brother, Udaut d'Aniort, whom Philip the Fair would have loved to make his companion in arms but who preferred to become a Templar.

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Will continue in next post