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Nothing evil about the U.S.

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posted on Jun, 8 2004 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90
I am prepared to pay through taxes to ensure that everyone has a piece of daily bread. It is because i care for my fellow man and society and the advancement of the world.


Good for you. I, on the other hand, am not. I highly doubt that you can say that if I gave $100 to a family in need to buy groceries, they would get $100. If you gave $100 to give to a needy family, they would get $55.76. That's not what I call effective by any means. Regardless of the country, government is corrupt in ineffective in spending money. Perhaps you should help your community for strong communities lower crime rates, decrease poverty, and on a grand scale add to a stronger country. Giving to the government only creates fraud.



You sort of wonder why many European cities are so much cleaner and more beautiful than US cities. It is because they have a more advanced progressive social system. While in the USA the cities remain dirty and full of criminals and the homeless (including homeless vets)


This is one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. Paris is filthy, London - filthy, Madrid - filthy, anywhere in Greece - filthy. To say that American cities are the filthiest and most crime ridden cities while Europe is pristine and damn near crimeless is rediculous, not to mention irresponcible.


And now some people claim that all the poor are just lazy bums.. which is not always the case. Why should people be punished due to lack of intelligence, disability, things beyond our current control?


They are not punished, but people that are less capable will almost never have as much as those who are. It is the function of humanity. You do have the right to enjoy the fruits of your labor.


It has alot to do with these bible thumping conservatives who wish not to advance society through means of cooperation.. but to keep living in the old ways which are not quite applicable in today's advancing world.


I think it might because we value freedom. The freedom to educate ourselves, the freedom to enjoy what we earn without it being stolen from us, the freedom to give to worthy causes OF OUR OWN VOLITION. Because we oppose giving to federal bloated and ineffective programs does not mean we wish to horde our wealth and say screw everyone else. That is a falacious and limited mindset that needs to be corrected.

Also, "advancement" does not mean communism, nor does it fit with your criteria for wealth redistribution. I'm sure you view your mindset as "enlightened", but it is only serving those who do not do for themselves. Working for your own benefit is freedom. Working for another's benefit is called slavery.





posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 01:17 AM
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Now Sweat is agreeing with me too? its my lucky day...thanks

RedOctober says,
"While the world attempts to cooperate and build good diplomatic and economic ties in order to ensure everyone has the highest stanadard of living possible, reduced crime, cleaner environment some nations remain in the primitive nationalism (we have a bigger army than you) mindset."

If you believe that the motives of globalization are "to ensure everyone has the highest stanadard of living possible, reduced crime, cleaner environment ", I want you to invest in my new NYC to London tunnel project.

MEGACORPORATE GREED is the MAIN reason that globalization is occuring, its why jobs are outsourced, its the special intrests that dump big $$$ into politics. The ideals that you cite are great noble ideas, but corporations exist why? to make money! This is an evil in America and elsewhere.

RedOct blames concervative social elements that want
"to keep living in the old ways which are not quite applicable in today's advancing world."

Hmm, new is not always improved, dispite what marketing programming wants you to believe.

Which "old ways" are no longer applicable?

As far as "todays advancing world" goes.....haste makes waste.
Is it possible that todays advances are comming too fast for us to realize the longer term effects and to be able to adapt with the changes?
Can we control ourselves to need more examination than a 30 sec sound bite on tv gives before we switch the channel? We have bred a spoiled, microwave fast, instant gratification culture that is very often short sighted.

Change for changes sake? Blind change is not a wise choice.
I feel that moving so fast we lose our way from where we came from could be evil in another form.



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:16 AM
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KrazyJethro:

In the U.S.A. the social programs are entirely too bloated and disorganized.. In Europe this is much different. The U.S. government simply lacks the organization and reform that would easily fix the social programs up and avoid abuse of them.

I am not asking for a system where the medical doctor makes the same as a janitor. I am looking at a society where there is plenty for all people. The idea of equal income doesen't work.. since there is no incentive to advance... but the idea that there is plenty for all people does. Just because a socialist system would be implemented.. does not mean everyone will become lazy and not work. Is it like this in Europe? No. People will always wish to advance and achieve more than what they are. But the more advanced socialist system would have a backup system to help out the less forunate. This is the wave of the future, hard-capitalism and corporate control of government/military is not.

It's about personal opinion, I'd have no problem sharing a portion of my wealth to ensure that everyone has daily bread to eat. It basically is about how concerned you are personally about your fellow man. For me, true patriotism is the idea that everyone in a country has plenty.. a land of plenty. "Nationalism" is an outdated and primitive idea of "haha my country has a bigger army than yours" term of thought. Instead of cooperating and working together with foreign entities, they wish to compete with them.

CAZ

Manufacuring jobs tend to be the biggest outsourced jobs in the country (USA) I think it has something to do with the idea that people are now expected to all have college degrees and work in high-ranked fields, which is simply not how it is. There is always going to be a need for a a blue collar working class.. because without it the higher classes wouldn't have anything. So they outsource jobs to third world countries

Corporations have a right to exist, I just feel as if they have too much power in this world, and under hard-capitalism like in the USA, they basically run free all over.


Onto the subject of the "Conservative" You seemed to ask why I believed the conservative viewpoint is not exactly totally applicable.

It is because the newer generation of people are more liberal and open.. rather than the older generations who were much more religious and "conservative"

We live in a time where anything can go, the bible does not rule all the people.. so if Gays want to get married so be it. I don't see the problem with this. Most of the conservative types I know tend to be highly racist. We now live in a global market.... nationalism will become tougher and tougher to promote in the future as the societal advancement continues. When it comes to a point where race,religion,gender is no longer taken into consideration.. but the overall value of his character is what is looked upon.



[edit on 9-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 9-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 9-6-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:19 AM
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Nothing evil about the US? You forgot that this is the country that brought us Baywatch and Howard the Duck.


[Edited on 9-6-2004 by intrepid]



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:27 AM
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CazMedia,

It has nothing to do with you. It's just that if you say something that either makes sense or is true, then that's what it is.

So congrats on finally talking sense. Only reason why I agree. Nothing lucky about it.



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90

It's about personal opinion, I'd have no problem sharing a portion of my wealth to ensure that everyone has daily bread to eat.



You might not, but I certainly do. I want to keep that which I earn.


It basically is about how concerned you are personally about your fellow man.


I disagree wholeheartedly. I AM concerned with the wellbeing of people in my community, but outside that I generally am not. You seem to think that because I choose freedom rather than slavery, charity rather than thievery, that I am not concerned that people don't have enough to eat. While it is entirely not my problem, as I am NOT my brother's keeper, I choose when and what to give to, and how much. I do not need anyone to dictate my charity. There lies the difference.


For me, true patriotism is the idea that everyone in a country has plenty.. a land of plenty.


You mix definitions. Our "land of plenty" is based on the opposite of what you prescribe. We would like to maintain the most amount of personal freedoms as is possible. We are not a collective, and do not wish to be so. You may think freedom outdated, but I do not. I understand taxation, and the need for it, but I have a family (a wife and two kids) who are unable to work. I work for them and myself, not others as I need every cent I can spare. Who else in this country disserves the food off of my table? No one but me and my family is worthy of my work and labor than them.


"Nationalism" is an outdated and primitive idea of "haha my country has a bigger army than yours" term of thought. Instead of cooperating and working together with foreign entities, they wish to compete with them.


Perhaps, but competition breeds greater results sometimes than collective work.

I'd go so far as to say that I think that America is so great because of the vast innovation of Americans. Personal drive here is a requirement to succeed, and in that we have extremely resourceful people putting some of the best products and new ideas out into the world for everyone to benefit from.

You are in control of your own life, and are responsible to no one else. Freedom comes solely from the choice to be responsible to others (family, children, etc) not to mention being charitable.

I think it would be more effective to cut the social programs, and encourage incentives that would build strong communities. As I have said before, strong communities lessen crime, decrease poverty, and increase quality of life for all.

Local involvement and local government support guarantees a drastic decrease in waste, fraud, and abuse, which believe it or not occur in European countries as well. I think that local governments also are more adept at assessing the need of their communities rather than federal and even state governments so any money that WAS collected would be better controlled by the people, and go towards what the people want to better life for all.

This to me is better than blind faith that the federal government (European or American) will do the best thing for people. Throwing money at a problem is not a solution. That is evident in the public school systems.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 02:13 PM
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My friend in Germany is quite happy with the European socialist systems being implemented. He can get free healthcare, free college.. all while working his job to pay for his other expenses. More and more people in Europe have been going to higher education than ever, probably more than in the USA because it is more easier to get to in Europe. This is creating a more advanced society and one that relies less on nationalism but more on cooperation. And they have freedom in Germany, more than probably in the USA where they are putting cameras everywhere and implenting patriot acts which allow the feds to go into your library records and pull out what you read. And then they can actually arrest you for no reason and hold you indefinately. Yeha that is freedom right there.

The cost of living is going up in the USA and jobs are being exported, more and more people are going in poverty. The billions used in slaughtering Iraqis for "democracy" could be used to improve the social system and increase the number of jobs out there so people can work.

I am beginning to think that the USA modern system requires taking (even through military force) in order to sustain itself as a world power. It is nothing but deplorable nationalism.

Now Social security is going bankrupt and old folks unable to work are getting screwed. What about them? Should we just let them suffer? What is more important? Nationalism or people? I take people all the way. For I believe there is nothing more important than the wellbeing of the world.. not just my country.

It's not about increasing the amount of money given, but organizing the current system to make it as efficent as possible.

We have a government which regularly admits to "misplacing" checks for several million dollars.. what kind of efficency is this?

[edit on 10-6-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90
My friend in Germany is quite happy with the European socialist systems being implemented. He can get free healthcare, free college.. all while working his job to pay for his other expenses. More and more people in Europe have been going to higher education than ever, probably more than in the USA because it is more easier to get to in Europe.


Good for your friend. Perhaps he will enjoy working the rest of his life so that others can reap the reward of his labor. College over here is easy to pay for. They quite an extensive amount of loans that are easy to get if a person can not pay for school. That also includes Masters and PhD schooling too and you can get housing money included in the loan.


And they have freedom in Germany, more than probably in the USA where they are putting cameras everywhere and implenting patriot acts which allow the feds to go into your library records and pull out what you read. And then they can actually arrest you for no reason and hold you indefinately. Yeha that is freedom right there.


This has nothing to do with money, and the conversation we are talking about. Most over here disagree and are working to countermand these choices by the government because they do in fact limit freedom. But that is another discussion altogether.


The cost of living is going up in the USA and jobs are being exported, more and more people are going in poverty.


First you say that America is the wealthiest country in the world, and that we should spread the wealth. Then you say that we are slowly slipping into poverty. Which is it? This is quite a sensational way to put it. Jobs are fine here. Unemployment in Germany for the past 10 years has hovered around the 10% mark, where as in America it hasn't gone above 8.6 (approx.) in the past 30 years.

It's at 5.6 now. The cost of living in America IS going up, but as it is in Germany too. Many people in America are making good money playing the stock and real estate markets because of that growth. So let's not make it sound so destitute here.



The billions used in slaughtering Iraqis for "democracy" could be used to improve the social system and increase the number of jobs out there so people can work.


Again, people can and do work. Personally, I think that lowering spending (to include military) will coincide nicely with lower taxes. More money to spend means better economy and more jobs.


Now Social security is going bankrupt and old folks unable to work are getting screwed. What about them? Should we just let them suffer? What is more important? Nationalism or people? I take people all the way. For I believe there is nothing more important than the wellbeing of the world.. not just my country.


Well sure, Social Security is in the crapper, but that is no different than the government Health Care systems in quite a number of countries. What we should do, is privatize Social Security to allow people greater control of their money. Audit the current drawers of benifits, and find those that truely need it and keep them on until they die. This will eliminate the problem.


It's not about increasing the amount of money given, but organizing the current system to make it as efficent as possible.


Efficency is something that can not be done for long in a large government, regardless of which country we are talking about.




posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 04:05 PM
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Socialism is a good, noble deed. I like it. But it's such bull at the same time. How will "sharing" ever work?

Socialism ends up being just another totalitarian state.

It's so very simple. People are greedy. We want things, and when we get them, we want it for ourselves and whoever else we want to share it with. I never let anybody, even my best friend, borrow more than $1.00. I don't care if it's $2.00, I will not let him borrow any more than a buck.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Good for your friend. Perhaps he will enjoy working the rest of his life so that others can reap the reward of his labor. College over here is easy to pay for. They quite an extensive amount of loans that are easy to get if a person can not pay for school. That also includes Masters and PhD schooling too and you can get housing money included in the loan.


Easy to pay for? I wouldn't go that far. I would say it's more gracious. As far as loans go, the more money your family has, the less you get. I was a victim of that system. My family income was an inch above $200,000, so despite my good record and achievements, I didn't get any scholarships or even loans. But I'm not complaining, because I did get into where I wanted to go, all without the government's help!


College is in no way easy to pay for. But I would say it's more gracious. Other countries deny admission if you are within a certain economic class. Here, they at least allow you the dignity of getting accepted, whether you go or not.



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 09:49 PM
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Good for your friend. Perhaps he will enjoy working the rest of his life so that others can reap the reward of his labor. College over here is easy to pay for. They quite an extensive amount of loans that are easy to get if a person can not pay for school. That also includes Masters and PhD schooling too and you can get housing money included in the loan.


He is not working the rest of his life to support others...... it's not only him that contributes.. He has enough money of his own to keep, he believes and enjoys putting money into a system which provides free health care/college.. Plus.. he also recieves benefits out of the system he pays for. It is not like the system is just for the poor or unemployed.. it is for the working people too. I believe this is a very advanced way of looking at the future. Rather than the primitive idea of nationalism.

The problem is that the term "socialism" has been butchered to mean a facist dictatorship or what happened in the Soviet Union. This is the result of the propaganda Matrix.. for communism is totally different than socialism. The propaganda matrix has been created by the hard-capitalist right.

[edit on 10-6-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90
He is not working the rest of his life to support others...... it's not only him that contributes.. He has enough money of his own to keep, he believes and enjoys putting money into a system which provides free health care/college.. Plus.. he also recieves benefits out of the system he pays for. It is not like the system is just for the poor or unemployed.. it is for the working people too. I believe this is a very advanced way of looking at the future. Rather than the primitive idea of nationalism.


Oh now I get it. We are primative.

Buy into the system, pay into your government so they can do it all for you. Lucky we allow you to have enough money to keep.

Give me a break with this pipedream you call socialism. It, like all things will fail, in many more ways than complete failure.

Anything made by man is flawed. If that's the system for you, then super, but don't think we should model ourselves after them. Did you miss the unemployment rate in Germany?



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 01:33 AM
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But instead of voting and telling their 'representatives' what they want, most people just sit complacently watching the latest soap or sport with a can of Bud in their hands. And then they complain when everything falls apart .


Agreed . Checks and balances are a part of our government and it is the publics responsibility to enforce them . When many millions of people choose to not participate in elections (from local all the way up) they lose the right to have even one little oppinion about ANY government issues , much less the right to complain about them . Participation , and then continued evaluation / communication is the key to keeping the big boys in check . They work for us ! We pay their salaries ! ( Never say this to a police officer ...words of experience...) We The People are not united enough to stand in the way of the corruption and manipulation of our elected leaders (at the moment) . In the small state of New Hampshire , representatives are paid $100 dollars a year in salery . They want someone who wants to paticipate , not some greedy , corrupt ,(and yes..) evil little monster speaking for them .. Some offices have shorter terms than the rest of the country , and local town meetings are still held in even the smallest communities . It is Goverment from the bottom up ....Participation required as intended . For the people , by the people .......VOTE !!



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 04:40 AM
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RedOct says,
""Nationalism" is an outdated and primitive idea..."
and
"nationalism will become tougher and tougher to promote in the future as the societal advancement continues.

Hmm lets see what the world community says

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, here is an exerpt...

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Your gonna be hard pressed to get rid of nationalism with a UN article like that on the books.



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 10:44 PM
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RedOctober90 and KrazyJethro,

Look, obviously you two have your own beliefs. RedOctober90 believes socialism is the way to go, KrazyJethro believes capitalism is the way to go.

Neither can be called "right," because, like KJ says, all systems created by man eventually fail. Socialism will fail, capitalism will fail (but to a much lesser degree than socialism). Just pick your pick and be thankful you have it.

Agree to disagree.



posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 08:59 AM
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Because some theroies are actually harmful to the society that lives by them. Any society which does not live by rules of natural selection is eventually rendered EXTINCT



posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Because some theroies are actually harmful to the society that lives by them. Any society which does not live by rules of natural selection is eventually rendered EXTINCT


You could make a case for this, but I don't care what other countries do to themselves. I just find it funny that someone would think that freedom is an outdated and old fashioned idea.

To each his own I guess.



posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 09:14 AM
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RedOctober has claimed to be an american. The idea thats smeone who had the fortune to grw up in this country is a socialist is uncomprehendable to me.
Also if the ecnomy in europe collapsed it would have a profound effect on the U.S. economy (though nt as profound as if the situation was reversed)
The economies of the U.S. eurpe and asia are so fundamentally entwined that any disruption of one would negativly impact another.



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