Nothing evil about the U.S.

As much as it may upset those obsessed with the concept of good vs. evil (Thomas Crowne, this is for you), the cliched "evil man on conquest to dominate the world using awesome military and scary stuff" thing died with Adolf Hitler. Those are long gone. We live in a different world now.

As the world has gotten more "complicated," so has humanity. But it's not evolution, it's that our more complex aspects have finally surfaced. These are different times, because now we live in a world (a country, more specifically) that promotes and allows people to do whatever the hell they want. Problems arise because things like fundamentalism, religion, all go against the concept of human nature. That's why the terrorists don't like us. They don't like our concept of "be who you really are." That's why Bush and just about every religious person in America thinks non-religious people and atheists are bad. They know how "bad" human nature is, so they try to suppress it. And that's why society has so many issues today. There are those who want to be who they are, but there are those that don't want to be "bad."

To incorporate conspiracies, Secret Societies, NWO, nothing about it is "evil." They are simply being who they are: selfish, just like me, yourself, and 8 billion other people. The Patriots who are in control of this nation aren't creating an NWO because they're evil, they're doing it because they know how screwed up everything is. But they figure, hey it's screwed up and I can't control it. But I can control the CHAOS.

So get it right, there is nothing bad about our country. In fact, our country is great because we are the essence of human nature. It's just that certain "facilities," the so-called pillars that Bush says holds our nation and society together (church, school, parents, etc.), are trying to prevent that from happening. Bush is wrong. It's not those "pillars" that hold up America. It's our knowledge of who we really are that holds this nation together and is the only reason why we've survived for 200 years.

Put it this way, freedom, equality, capitalism, unity, all could've been ours. But we never got it fully. Why? The guys in control knew it would never work. And is a rather perverted way, I think they were right.

There is an evil abroad in the US. And its the same evil as in the UK, Australia, France, Canada, Mexico etc.

Apathy.

Do you really think the politicians who screw us daily in order to line their pockets and those of their cronies would have so much power over us if we actually bothered to tell them 'No' ?

If people actually bothered to think of others and the country they supposedly love, they wouldn't allow the Bush Administration and Blair's Government to use us to fulfil their agendas. But instead of voting and telling their 'representatives' what they want, most people just sit complacently watching the latest soap or sport with a can of Bud in their hands. And then they complain when everything falls apart.

The Government should be the servants of the people. The way things are going, the people are starting to become the slaves of the Government and their corporate cronies.

Pisky,

"Democracy" is just a fill-in for people so they don't think they're being screwed over. It really means nothing. Public opinion has ZERO impact on government policy.

I read somewhere that pretty much the minute you are born (in the states obviously), with the application for a social security card (Hmmm..."SS Card"..makes ya think), you immediately sign yourself up as a lifelong employee of the Corporate US of America.

You're right, Sweat - Democracy IS just a word. Semantics. And like so many others spouted and being given lip service to, it means nada.

Democracy - a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them.

If we are to believe that democracy is about freedom and the government is controlled by citizens then we do not live in a democracy. The reason why we don't live in a democracy is due to the fact millions of people protested against the war in Iraq but the US and UK governments ignored the citizens and went to war. If we lived in a democracy, the goverments would have listened to the citizens not do what they like.

What we now live in is what i called democratic Totalitarianism. This means we elect governments to represent us, but when the elected government is in power all citizens are subject to the governing authority in all aspects of day-to-day life.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by infinite]

infinite,

That's an interesting take on it. A democratic totalitarianism. We choose our dictator!

Interestingly enough, as we saw in the 2000 election, even voting is "symbolic." The existance of the Electoral COllege tells me the people are only about 10% effective in voting, it's all done by someone else.

This nation is not what it seems. There is definitely others doing the work.

But hey, I am not bashing the U.S. I think it's to be commended (only to those really in power) because it's letting human nature take it's course rather than suppress it.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Interestingly enough, as we saw in the 2000 election, even voting is "symbolic." The existance of the Electoral COllege tells me the people are only about 10% effective in voting, it's all done by someone else.

When it comes to voting time, each side blames the other for the problems in the country and both sides say the other wouldn't do a good job. Both sides make promises, which they have no intention of keeping and we are lead to believe that each side will keep to their word once in power. As we all know, that is far from the truth. What we don't see is what really goes on in the shadow of power. In the power game anybody will do anything to get power, lies and broken promises will be made to brainwash the public into voting for them.

Infinite says'
"Democracy - a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them.

If we are to believe that democracy is about freedom and the government is controlled by citizens then we do not live in a democracy. The reason why we don't live in a democracy is due to the fact millions of people protested against the war in Iraq but the US and UK governments ignored the citizens and went to war. If we lived in a democracy, the goverments would have listened to the citizens not do what they like."

Hmm seems to me the USA is a democracy, or more accuratly a democratic republic. Seems like we're adhearing to the definition of democracy as we have elected people to REPRESENT us in government affairs. This is where most people lose it.

We here in the USA do not have a direct democracy. If we did, things would be far more chaotic id think, as the speed of governance would grind to a halt as the population tried to gather regularly to vote on every mundane to important issue the government had to work out from the local level to national. Plus the democracy of this type would have things swingly as one can see from polls.....the #'s change daily. Can you immagine trying to create and oversee a huge burocracy that kept changing its policies on whims?

We have a representative democracy....there are times issues do go directly to the populace, but many times, the people we've elected to do this work for us, actually make the decision.


Can these representatives make decisions that go against their respective constituants. YES.

Is this nessisarily a bad thing? NO.
I think our founding founders forsaw the populaces political whims change as the wind does, and realized that continuity in government was nessisary. I think they also realized that given a choice, a person may not choose the best thing for their interests.
Being a leader often means having to choose the more diffuclt than popular idea.

The USA use of representative democracy both reduces our need for a huge beurocracy (its big enough) that would be able to constantly take the vote from every citizen all the time.
as well as
provides our culture some "time" to work out the best solution instead of jumping at the first concensus. Time to allow for cultural ideology to be passed down the generational ladder, so that our common history can be shared and learned from. Time with which we can not be a nation of whim, but one of long term vision.

Certantly we citizens retain the right to remove those we have elected should we feel that they need to be out of office (for whatever reason).
This act would mean that we each would have to exercise our direct powers and get up off the couch and actually do something....and as our politicians COUNT on us being lazy do nothings, they act with implied impunity from the voters.

Who is to blame there? the person that gave into corruption, or the ones that put him there and did nothing when he was found corrupt?

The USA isnt evil, its voters apathy is!

Every country has commited atrocities, many continue to today.

America's treatment of their poor is an atrocity, considdering how much better their lives could be with America's wealth.

The abuses of the Geneva Convention come to mind as well.

There are many many more too.

The point is that there is evil in America and even in the very fabric of American government and society there is evil. This is not to say that there is not good in America, just that they are not pure.

No one is truly pure good or pure evil, it's much the same for countries. Every single country has a shade of gray.

~Astral

Originally posted by The Astral City
Every country has commited atrocities, many continue to today.

Granted

America's treatment of their poor is an atrocity, considdering how much better their lives could be with America's wealth.

How do you figure? Personally I think we give too much to the poor, federally that is. How is it we got so wealthy, by giving up our money? What exactly would you propose to do about "the poor" anyway?

The abuses of the Geneva Convention come to mind as well.

Anything more specific than that? Since they "come to mind", maybe you can list a few.

The point is that there is evil in America and even in the very fabric of American government and society there is evil. This is not to say that there is not good in America, just that they are not pure.

There is evil everywhere, what's the point. At this stage of the game, I would find it pretty obvious that the evil lies within the human heart, and would permeate every man made thing and group.

Jethro:

The United States is the richest country on the planet and yet still people live in povery? How is this just? I have known a great many hardworking Americans that could not escape poverty no matter how hard they tried, ever read the book "Nickeled and Dimed"? You Americans need to help your poor, give them an education that is not a joke, give them jobs that are not beneath you and help your fellow man, how hard is that idea? For a country that touts Christianity you sure didn't listen to him. How hard was it for a rich man to get into heaven? Oh yes as hard as it is for a Camel to pass through the eye of the needle. Which by the way is a refernce to a trade pass in Palestine that required that the camel remove its load before going though. So, give your riches! Your teeming masses need it for survival!

As for abuses of the Geneva Convention try the Iraqi prisoner abuse, the illegal detaining of enemy combat troops at your terrorist camp in Cuba.

Also how about your funding of terrorist and repressive governments like the Saudis?

Please, America has been guilty of much evil, just like everyone else.

Originally posted by The Astral City
The United States is the richest country on the planet and yet still people live in poverty? How is this just?

It is just because everyone has the opportunity to succeed no matter what anyone tells you. Just because we are the richest nation in the world, does not by any stretch mean that we should rob those who work hard to pay the bills of the money they earned? Freedom is working and enjoying the fruit of your labor. Working for someone else�s benefit is called slavery my friend.

Giving to someone is charity. Forcing someone to give up what they rightfully earned is called stealing.

I have known a great many hardworking Americans that could not escape poverty no matter how hard they tried, ever read the book "Nickeled and Dimed"?

No I have not. But I can not attest to people being sub par, intelligence wise, nor can I say that I should pay because others made mistakes that limit their success in life. I am my brother�s keeper by will, not by force.

You Americans need to help your poor, give them an education that is not a joke,

Even those in the worst schools in the country can make it. I agree that the education system needs work (BIG TIME), but an education comes from personal drive, not the government. I went to one of the best public school in the country, and still I knew plenty that could care less, got horrible grades, and now work as a waiter or waitress, drink all their money away, and live in rat hole apartments bitching about how they wish they could "break free".

I SHOULD SUPPORT THEM? I'll be damned if those maggots get one thin dime of my money. I have two kids and a wife to support.

ALONE.

...give them jobs that are not beneath you and help your fellow man, how hard is that idea?

It's not hard at all to comprehend. I have held jobs that are "beneath" people. I have scrimped and saved, and broken free of financial burden. Now I enjoy the money and success I have achieved. Now you want to come and TAKE IT?

For a country that touts Christianity you sure didn't listen to him. How hard was it for a rich man to get into heaven? Oh yes as hard as it is for a Camel to pass through the eye of the needle.

Is it not also true that the Catholic church is the biggest philanthropic organization in the world, yet they have fancy silk robes and gold goblets? What's the point? Christianity says to give to the poor and to the church. It does not say that you should throw money into a bloated federal program that will waste as much money as it gives out.

I hope you all realize I was using the term "evil" figuratively, the way we know it.

In truth and logic, evil is a totally relative term. There is not such thing as "good" or "evil."

All the more reason why anyone who calls the U.S. "evil" for it's politics, conspiracies, etc. should be lined up and shot! The world is gray, and there is nothing that says humans can't be humans.

Kazmedia you seem to be one of the few people on this site I've seen so far who has a clue as to how the U.S. goverment actually works. Its refreshing to see that not all the opinions on this site are Unifromed/ignorant/paranoid. Keep up the good work.

MWM,
I am grateful for your appreciation.
There are alot of other good posters (members) that ive encountered as well...KJ is one of them. Banshee (friendly and helpful), Pisky (Good debator, we've bumped each other in a few threads), Seekerof (usually devastating...what i expect in a mod) Even Colonel. (Extremely adept orator, but slick too...Mildly too aggressivly "hostile", but hey who am i to say dont be p-vd?) One day if I run for office Ill count on your vote!

There are a ton of boneheads hear too, (unworthy of being named)
perhaps they can at least learn something about debating...even if they cant agree on an issue.

Mental dueling at its modern finest here on ATS!! I worry that the recent influx will end up debating ideas again, but also know that many will flame and run, with either no valid positions, or no way to express themselves in a manner that communicates without distractions. (flames, x-cess emotions or divergance) But im happy for ATS success...I want to be one of the superstar posters. ATS IS my own talk show...LOL...Ha ha ha...mooo ha ha ha! More brains! Give me more brains to feed! You ATS GUYS...you need a TV show now, Im your TV man...lets talk.

I hope other readers will also be able to see the points I try and make about the "reality" of an issue. By reality, I mean a objective look at the tangible factors and methods of how to work with sometimes "big" ideas.

What are the issues, specific items affecting citizens?

How can the average citizen grasp, and then become active with the issue?

Remove as much emotional "baggage" as possible from the issue being discussed....I try to stick to a more formal debate style...(yes I will flame) Basicaly, attack the persons arguments, NOT the person.
(I trained at the Vulcan Academy for a semester)

Basically strip any argument down to its dirty core.

back to the arguments dirty core.

YES America has done things that could be construed as evil.
As an American, I'm sorry for the wrongs my nation has done. I cannot change history, but we can try to move forward into the future.

In general i believe the nation is "Nutral Good" to use a AD+D phrase.

All nations of mankind suffer from infalible human weakneses...greed, lust, power, the dark side.

American honor may be tarnished, but it is not gone, and we can still claim honors. But we need to ensure the nation is secure, productive, and HOME....but these too are "big" ideas. This starts at home citizens...your home. WE the people .. ..... .. .... . .... ....... .....

I second that, CazMedia. I say ATS become a TV show!

I think some people make the mistake of incorporating irrelevant aspects (conspiracies, etc.) when talking about politics. You can't do that. Conspiracies, as real as they may be, are still theory. Places like the Political Mudpit are places to talk about what we can see, whether it's true or not. That's why understanding of our government, whether it's real or an illusion, is important, because we see only what we ssee, and that is a government run by the Constiution.

If we see the conspiracies coming true, then we'll incorporate them. But until them, we have to discuss within the realm and ONLY the realm that we know about.

Anyway, nothing evil about U.S. Best country in the world for not being so "no, you can't do that! It's wrong!"

Well I believe that good and evil are all relative terms. However I do believe in basic human rights. That being said I find it amazing that more people are not outraged at America's policies. And its not just Bush either people, this government has become so corrupt after ww2, commiting acts of terror on smaller countries (niceragua anyone?) and ironicly creating our own enemies.

But you know what the truly sad thing is, people actually buy their propeganda, how many people seem to think America is great (you should hear their excuses) "However it may seem great to live here, imagine how sweatshop workers and slaves who have been imprisoned by American Corporations around the world feel, or the civilians that have been slaughtered by america's just wars."

Look I hate the Left and the Right, in my opinion their all rich aristocrats who care less about human life than lining their own pockets, my friends thats the truth whether you want to believe it or not.

Oh and another thing, you may firmly ignore it but the poor are disadvantaged in america. I have some experience with this, while I work full time to pay for college and pull 4.0's I get to watch rich kids sit back and take life easy, they will most certainly make it in life even without good work ethics simply because they have family money and contacts through their parents. (Yeah Im a little emotional about this subject, but I see it everday.) So dont ever say that the poor or the middle class are equal to the rich (thats another propeganda my friend, they just make you believe that.) While I dont believe in just giving free handouts, I believe in rewarding hard work.

[edit on 8-6-2004 by daeldren]

Originally posted by The Astral City
Jethro:

The United States is the richest country on the planet and yet still people

When it comes to election time the love of your nation is replaced by blatant self interest. I'd much rather see a progressive tax system. I am prepared to pay through taxes to ensure that everyone has a piece of daily bread. It is because i care for my fellow man and society and the advancement of the world. As the world advances nationalism becomes primitive, globalization is going to occur no matter what happens. Those who do not cooperate with the globalization are doomed into economic distress. While the world attempts to cooperate and build good diplomatic and economic ties in order to ensure everyone has the highest stanadard of living possible, reduced crime, cleaner environment some nations remain in the primitive nationalism (we have a bigger army than you) mindset.

You sort of wonder why many European cities are so much cleaner and more beautiful than US cities. It is because they have a more advanced progressive social system. While in the USA the cities remain dirty and full of criminals and the homeless (including homeless vets)

And now some people claim that all the poor are just lazy bums.. which is not always the case. Why should people be punished due to lack of intelligence, disability, things beyond our current control?

It has alot to do with these bible thumping conservatives who wish not to advance society through means of cooperation.. but to keep living in the old ways which are not quite applicable in today's advancing world.

It is true that the USA has funded terror organizations at the time it was "politically acceptable" Yet later goes out spending more U.S. tax dollars destroying them. The same organizations the U.S vows to fight against it once worked with.. heh.
[edit on 8-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 8-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

daeldrum,

Doesn't surprise me. Lower-class, poor people, aren't represented. Simple as that.

But that's the case with every country. If you are in no position to help those in power, then you aren't "represented."

Another mistake many members on ATS make is that they confuse the meaning of "debating." Debating is not a sport in which the ultimate goal is to win the arguement or sell your opinions, debating is a way to see the issue from all sides. Many people forget that. Most everyone here refuses to see from both sides. Much of these are those "Deny Ignorance" people. How they expect to deny ignorance by seeing things only from their perspective, I don't know.

At the same time, there are those that try to make others shut up, and that's sad...