Teapartiers: What an outrage!

[edit on 4/21/10 by Afterall]

reply to post by mothershipzeta


Ooh, I like how you did that. You post something vague, intentionally not giving all the information, wait for me to think they were unintentionally mean to this guy, and then try to make me out to be an idiot. Nice, very nice.

A few questions, did the man really have parkinson's? It's not unheard of for people to claim something on a sign while begging for money that isn't true. Doesn't make those particular people's attitudes right by any means if he did make it up, but would it bother you so much if it were to turn out the guy didn't actually have parkinson's?

Did it ever occur to you that it might possibly have been a set up? I mean really, a guy with parkinson's goes to the group opposed to health care reform with a sign asking for help when a group in support of it was right there too? I'm not saying that's what happened, but did it ever occur to you that it was a possibility?

And finally, you base an opinion on an entire group of people based on the actions of a few? Hundreds of thousands of people, and you're really going to claim they're all identical to those few idiots in that article? Yeah, what they did was wrong and I'd personally like to smack some sense into them but that doesn't give you free reign to paint everyone with the same brush.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Yeah, you really need not jump to conclusions. The original reference to that by the other poster was intentionally vague and I had no clue what he was talking about. All I had to go on was people throwing money at a guy with a sign.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Yeah, you really need not jump to conclusions. The original reference to that by the other poster was intentionally vague and I had no clue what he was talking about. All I had to go on was people throwing money at a guy with a sign.

So you had a complete scenario all made up to defend something you knew nothing about and my pointing out the truth is jumping to conclusions?

Let me see if I can explain it to you using what you just said. You had little to go on so you just made some crap up based on what you CONCLUDED was being spoken of and you were wrong.

That is jumping to conclusions.

I pointed out that what you said was a bunch of nonsense based on nothing and explained to you why.

Not sure why I thought I would find logical thinking in this thread, my bad.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


*sigh*

Think what you like. I wasn't given complete information and based my response on what I was given like any sane rational person would. Excuse me for not being a mind-reader and knowing exactly what he was talking about when I'd never even heard about that happening until about 5 minutes ago. You want to try and twist it into me being hypocritical, have at it because I really don't care and it's not worth wasting my time when it's blatantly obvious that his post was meant to intentionally bait me into saying what they did was ok before telling me what exactly it was that happened. Yeah, I fell for it. Bad Jenna. I'll put myself in the corner now.

This whole issue is a plot to divide America. We do not want to live in a police state, where you have to have your birth certificate with you when you go jogging. Still we do not want illegals and drug thugs and Mexican military types running back and forth across our border, murdering and looting us.
The police are not there to protect you any more. They are there to look for excuses to arrest, fine, detain and harrass you. There are not there to reduce drug availability on the streets as it is the CIA that appears to have taken over drug running and organized crime, not to end it, but to control it, to make it a part of their own criminal organization.
America is in trouble. The govt and police and crime world and big cartels and media are organized to box you in, to corral you in order to rob or kill you.
The government claims that people who don't trust it are potential terrorists. But they keep setting us up to commit crimes against us. Then they publically wonder why someone would not trust the government. Example, Clinton's "How dare you" reply to 911 truthers.
We have the Nazi experience behind us from WWII. We know that there are bad people out there. The Nazis proved that. There are people that an appeal to their decency and reasonableness is a waste. Ghandi's passive resistance would not have worked against Hitler and will not work against our modern Nazis. People who are just evil will destroy us without a qualm. Watch Shindler's List.
We know that the Nazi Gestapo and SS were incorporated into the CIA with hardly a pause or hickup. The people who financed Hitler were influential in our government and now seem to have completely taken it over. Google Nazis in corporate America.
So then we get into a situation where either we want to empower police to trample on our individual liberties or we want them to ignore criminals harming people. The ptb are setting you up. Either way they want you to champion your own destruction

[edit on 21-4-2010 by m khan]

Originally posted by skunknuts
Teapartiers, you are letting us down. Day after day you claim that the central core values of your movement are liberty, respect of the constitution, as well as freedom and protection from an oppressive and intrusive government.

However, the most concrete and tangible infringement and obliteration of your supposed values is about to be put into law, and yet I hear nary a peep. No protests, no endless strings of 'government takeover' threads, nothing. In fact, many of the same posters who claim to love the constitution are voicing support for this 'abortion' of a law.

Of course, I am speaking of the law in Arizona that allows law enforcement to use a slippery determination of 'reasonableness' to determine whether they want to detain and demand proof of citizenship.

[edit on 4/20/2010 by skunknuts]

Skunknuts, I find your post and your reasoning utterly reprehensible. You are using this new law in Arizona and the Constitution as a means to bash the TPM. You loathe the GOP and conservatives and now you feign caring about Constitutional "freedoms" to advance some partisan agenda. By doing so you dishonor the U.S. Constitution!!!

This law doesn't do anything but allow a police officer to verify that someone IS a U.S. citizen and afforded the rights in the Constitution guaranteed to all U.S. citizens. It's no different than a cop that has the ability to pull over cars at their discretion right now. They don't have to do so because of a traffic violation. They can do so if they believe there is a just reason.

Originally posted by m khan
This whole issue is a plot to divide America. We do not want to live in a police state, where you have to have your birth certificate with you when you go jogging.

Do you even understand what is in the bill? No one is asking for your birth certificate while you are jogging. Quit trying to follow the masses over the cliff of ignorance. Actually scratch that, Please do follow them over that cliff..one less for the Gene pool.

The police are not there to protect you any more. They are there to look for excuses to arrest, fine, detain and harrass you.

Are you having nightmares about the country you originated from? Again please stay in line to follow everyone off that cliff of ignorance.

There are not there to reduce drug availability on the streets as it is the CIA that appears to have taken over drug running and organized crime, not to end it, but to control it, to make it a part of their own criminal organization.

Hmm, so you are trying to turn a perfectly LEGAL solution to combat ILLEGAL ALIENS into a conspiracy involving CIA & drugs. Maybe you can go hang out with those Drug Cartels down south and tell them they don't need to sell up north anymore, the CIA has the block on lockdown.

America is in trouble. The govt and police and crime world and big cartels and media are organized to box you in, to corral you in order to rob or kill you.

I agree with you that America is in trouble, but you are too deluded to see why America is in trouble hence the creation of this bill.

And your rants about Nazism are just outright in the realm of craziness. Get a hold of yourself man. If you are a citizen of this country then stand up for it like the people who created this bill. If you are not a citizen and are illegally, then your time is here has come to an end. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Originally posted by Alien Mind
What i've noticed about people on ATS is that they will bitch and whine about illegals crossing the border and how something needs to be done, But when a state trys to do something about it people come on to ATS saying how wrong it is ,But there is one thing i don't see people on ATS doing and that is coming up with better solutions to the problem.

Here is your solution to the problem! Restore the Constitution. Simple. The Constitution says you should not be harassed or flagrantly detained by the govt.(which implies police). The objective behind it is to keep the government from using police powers to bully people into unpopular policies. I don't think the Constitution says anything about closing the borders but they might have if they had the immigration problems we do today. If we could trust the government not to trampel our rights we wouldn't mind carrying our birth certificate around with us. But what they want to do is to completely close down our country so that we cannot even vacation let along move without them knowing where to get us. They have our gps coordinates at our very door. They are becomming more and more criminal and more and more above the law. If they want to take out (murder) the most vocal opposition, it will be easy for them. If you could trust the government it would be another story. But the government has been corrupted (or merged) into a for-profit corporation with no concern for human life. But then the government is not closing our borders, they are just insisting that we let them adobt draconian restrictions on our liberty.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by m khan]

Originally posted by prionace glauca



I agree with you that America is in trouble, but you are too deluded to see why America is in trouble hence the creation of this bill.

And your rants about Nazism are just outright in the realm of craziness. Get a hold of yourself man. If you are a citizen of this country then stand up for it like the people who created this bill. If you are not a citizen and are illegally, then your time is here has come to an end. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Before you complain about my rants about Nazism I suggest you actually google Nazis in corporate America. If you are not working for them you will likely change your tune. If you are working for them, then forget it.

No one is asking for your birth certificate while you are jogging.

I actually know someone who was stopped, a half a block from his house, by police when jogging and asked for his drivers license. He didn't have it on him, but since one of them was carefully moving behind him probably to grab him, he gave them the number so they could look it up and let him go. (I don't know about your state but we have to submit a birth certificate to get a drivers license.)
Do we live in a police state?

Nazis


[edit on 21-4-2010 by m khan]

what a sad excuse for a thread.
Take a serious topic and use it to try and demonize only a specific demographic....How sad that something personal becomes a political narrative.

I have mexican friends, both legal and illegal.
A Construction friend who was illegal and went through channels to become legal says there is a joke going around the mexican community.
You cannot go back to Mexico because they are watching the other end of the tunnels.
You see, they WILL NOT let them go back now. And most of them want to.
It's a political chess piece for both sides now.
In Mexico they can live arfound family and friends for free when times are hard.
They grow food and raise animals and NOBODY kicks them off the land.
In America they cannot use the land for free and if they get evicted there is no place to go. If you have animals what would you do with them in the usa?
With the drug wars kicking up and escalating into a full blown war the demrats are gearing up to legalize 10-50 million mexicans with usa citizenship in hopes they all vote demorat.
And this is not a partisan rant.
It's the repugs that allowed the influx of illegals to flood the country for cheap labor during the boon.
I am not sure of last years numbers but in 2008 America lost 1.2 million jobs and imported 1.5 million workers, not including the illegal immigrants allowed through.
This thread can easily be turned around and away from tea partiers and aimed at the op.
Why in the world are you concerned with tea partiers and not the government that not only allowed it but fomented it and propogated it allowing dmv's across the nation to issue drivers licenses when that was the easiest way to settle it?
If it wasn't easy...wait, easIER to get a drivers license for an illegal than it was for a legal resident we would not be having this discussion.
And it had nothing to do with tea party or any of us for them to allow this.
The drug wars are getting nastier and nastier and the border states are going to have to illicit military force to stop the huge influx of illegals as they seek refuge. But it seems the border is enforced one way now. You cannot GO BACK to mexico easily now, but you can come across to the usa with little effort.
This is the real topic, not the tea party.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by johnny2127

 

I dont believe infringing upon constitutional rights is the solution to any issue. Do you? All this bill does is infringe the rights of americans merely over the way they appear. This bill singles out americans, forces them to constant be profiled merely over some assumption or generalization.

If we were talking about gun owners and that they had to carry permits and present them merely because they dont look right, would you be so quick to defend the bill?

I believe that we should sort out the borders, that we should move some of our troops from Afghanistan to the borders, I believe we should extend the border wall. I know it is costing this country over $1 billion a year. It is a serious issue, but surrendering the constitutional rights and equality of certain americans merely over looks and assumptions will not solve the issue.

Problem is the Federal Govt won't do what you say the solution is. They wouldn't under Bush, and they sure as hell won't under Obama.

Many of you talk about the constitutional rights being violated of illegal immigrants.... well they don't have a legal right to constitutional rights in the US. Know why? They are here ILLEGALLY. What sort of lunacy is it, where people are defending the 'rights' of know criminals (who don't pay taxes and drain tax dollars from the system, and take jobs) while ignoring the actual rights of legal US citizens that have their rights violated daily.

Phoenix has the highest kidnapping rate in the US, because illegals come in from Mexico, kidnap kids and hold them for ransom. But you guys are concerned for the rights of these illegals. Illegals are killing border patron, and US citizens in US cities along the Arizona border, the Federal Govt won't help, and you all have to gall to get mad at Arizona for trying to defend itself and its legal citizens.

Many of you don't make any sense. You defend tooth and nail what you observe as rights violations of criminals in the US, but say nothing about the rights being violated and crimes being committed against legal US citizens by these people. They pay nearly nothing in taxes, take jobs that someone would do (especially in this economy), drain social services, and you guys defend them.

Let me ask you, what is wrong with LEGAL immigration? There are many LEGAL Mexican immigrants, the are upstanding people and contribute to the US. Why are you defending illegals? They don't deserve your defense. What they need is to be told that their freeride on the US taxpayer is over, and if they want to be in the US, there are LEGAL means, and they have to go through that process. And I do not mean amnesty. I mean the normal route most immigrants take..... visas and applying for citizenship. Remember, we are a nation of LAWS not of men. But our liberal representatives are refusing to enforce our LAWS, and that is what is causing this problem. Arizona enacting this law is them trying to defend themselves since the Federal Govt won't help. Those of you that think Arizona should just continue to take the crime, kidnappings, murders, drugs, etc..... you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Sigh, the authority over immigration is in federal hands. Not local law enforcement, unless the they have contracted with the feds to handle the issues. As I stated in another thread about this same law, the problem we face is lack of MONEY and MANPOWER. ICE doesn't deport everyone who needs to be deported because they don't have the money/manpower; same thing goes for CBP...Though ICE doesn't deport people EOIR does. CBP can do a expedited removal.

The local police can't deport people...and all this law would do is cause problems. You know why you can't detain illegal immigrants for very long? No spaces....imagine that. They aren't all Mexicans either... People complain about the feds not doing their job but the reality is there are not enough people to do the job that needs to be done. There isn't enough money to combat it, the laws that surround deportability and inadmissibility are complex and confusing...and often conflicting. Add on top of that court district has it's own additions to existing immigration laws makes it hard to unilaterally enforce immigration laws.

People need to stop acting like they know what they are talking about just because there are illegal immigrants around your area…there are illegal immigrants everywhere. No this law won’t fix anything it will create problems. What stops a person from just asking anyone they don’t like for their papers citing they believe they might be an illegal immigrant? The potential for abuse is huge…and just the start if you ask me. If this gets signed what happens when other cities/states try to do something similar. What happens when it stops being the Hispanic population they are targeting? Think about it.

I've posted this before and will again.

Make those illegals legal.

As long as there are jobs for them over in this country. Then they will come here.

At one point in time my family had a check cashing place. One of our ancillary services was wiring money. Many illegals would come in to wire their money back home. At the end of the day the amount of money wired at the end of a work week was staggering.
There must be billions of dollars leaving this country every week.

That's money that's not being spent here in this country. We don't see that in taxes paid. Businesses don't see that money either. It all goes back to their home country to support their families.

Make illegals legal and you'd solve alot of our issues.

Personally, I don't see the problem here. The law in AZ is just fortifying the existing federal law into the state laws. I can't see them just "asking for papers" to everyone. That's ludicrous. I give my ID on traffic stops and just the act of having one says I'm legal. If the ID is fake, then there won't be any hits in the police database that their in car computers interface with. This is why illegal immigrant population has DECLINED 18% just in the past one year in AZ. I applaud them for actually upholding federal law since no one else will. I wish CA would adopt similar laws.

For the person who asked if one would have the same stance if this law was passed in WI, then I say I would have the same stance. Illegal immigration is just that, illegal and it doesn't matter where you come from.

Oh, and something else to chew on (this needs to be done again!):

Operation Wetback

reply to post by skunknuts


The OP does not understand what reasonable suspicion is. If a cop stops me and I cannot or do not provide a dl, he can detain me until he can ascertain my identity. If I do not have a license it could be assumed that I may not be a U.S. resident. In my state if I have a state issued drivers license, that is proof that I am a resident of the state. If I am a resident of the state I am a resident of the U.S. Don't make assumptions based on something you read of Huffington Post any more than you would with what you read here.

Originally posted by johnny2127
What sort of lunacy is it, where people are defending the 'rights' of know criminals (who don't pay taxes and drain tax dollars from the system, and take jobs) while ignoring the actual rights of legal US citizens that have their rights violated daily.

How would violating the rights of legal US citizens even more fix their rights being violated?

But you guys are concerned for the rights of these illegals.

Nope, concerned about the right US citizens have to not be detained and forced to prove citizenship just for looking like they might be illegal.

Let me ask you, what is wrong with LEGAL immigration? There are many LEGAL Mexican immigrants, the are upstanding people and contribute to the US.

Absolutely nothing. You forget that those legal immigrants will be subjected to the same treatment as illegals merely for the way they look. People can claim that won't happen, but we all know it will. It's just a matter of time and a massive lawsuit waiting to happen. Think that'll help Arizona if they get sued for detaining legal citizens for no reason other than their physical appearance and the possibility they might be illegal?

What they need is to be told that their freeride on the US taxpayer is over, and if they want to be in the US, there are LEGAL means, and they have to go through that process. And I do not mean amnesty. I mean the normal route most immigrants take..... visas and applying for citizenship.

Agreed. Had the federal government been doing their jobs and protected our border years ago, it wouldn't be the issue it's become today. Unfortunately, they didn't and so the states are left to clean up the mess. Detaining people, especially US citizens, and forcing them to prove citizenship based on physical appearance and the possibility they're here illegally is not the way to go though.

Originally posted by m khan

Originally posted by Alien Mind
What i've noticed about people on ATS is that they will bitch and whine about illegals crossing the border and how something needs to be done, But when a state trys to do something about it people come on to ATS saying how wrong it is ,But there is one thing i don't see people on ATS doing and that is coming up with better solutions to the problem.

Here is your solution to the problem! Restore the Constitution. Simple. The Constitution says you should not be harassed or flagrantly detained by the govt.(which implies police). The objective behind it is to keep the government from using police powers to bully people into unpopular policies. I don't think the Constitution says anything about closing the borders but they might have if they had the immigration problems we do today. If we could trust the government not to trampel our rights we wouldn't mind carrying our birth certificate around with us. But what they want to do is to completely close down our country so that we cannot even vacation let along move without them knowing where to get us. They have our gps coordinates at our very door. They are becomming more and more criminal and more and more above the law. If they want to take out (murder) the most vocal opposition, it will be easy for them. If you could trust the government it would be another story. But the government has been corrupted (or merged) into a for-profit corporation with no concern for human life. But then the government is not closing our borders, they are just insisting that we let them adobt draconian restrictions on our liberty.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by m khan]

The Constitution applies to U.S citizens only. There is a reason why they are called illegal immigrants. so therefore your solution is deeply flawed. Try again.

Originally posted by Stewie
reply to post by Angus123

 

Why are YOU a racist?
Don't know, but this link might help you in your therapy...

www.urbandictionary.com...

Umm, (topic)
this law is misguided, and I AM TEA PARTY.
(the REAL one)

That is AWESOME! LOL!!! I now feel I can begin to embrace my inner Klansmen that I had no idea was living inside me, lol!

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by johnny2127
What sort of lunacy is it, where people are defending the 'rights' of know criminals (who don't pay taxes and drain tax dollars from the system, and take jobs) while ignoring the actual rights of legal US citizens that have their rights violated daily.

How would violating the rights of legal US citizens even more fix their rights being violated?

But you guys are concerned for the rights of these illegals.

Nope, concerned about the right US citizens have to not be detained and forced to prove citizenship just for looking like they might be illegal.

Let me ask you, what is wrong with LEGAL immigration? There are many LEGAL Mexican immigrants, the are upstanding people and contribute to the US.

Absolutely nothing. You forget that those legal immigrants will be subjected to the same treatment as illegals merely for the way they look. People can claim that won't happen, but we all know it will. It's just a matter of time and a massive lawsuit waiting to happen. Think that'll help Arizona if they get sued for detaining legal citizens for no reason other than their physical appearance and the possibility they might be illegal?

What they need is to be told that their freeride on the US taxpayer is over, and if they want to be in the US, there are LEGAL means, and they have to go through that process. And I do not mean amnesty. I mean the normal route most immigrants take..... visas and applying for citizenship.

Agreed. Had the federal government been doing their jobs and protected our border years ago, it wouldn't be the issue it's become today. Unfortunately, they didn't and so the states are left to clean up the mess. Detaining people, especially US citizens, and forcing them to prove citizenship based on physical appearance and the possibility they're here illegally is not the way to go though.

Do you realize that what you are up in arms about is that people have to carry proof of citizenship? Carry a drivers license, won't have a problem. Don't drive, carry a passport. Don't have a passport, carry an ID card. Don't have that either, show your social security card. Its not that hard. People are being MURDERED and KIDNAPPED in Arizona by illegals daily. If the Federal Govt enforced their own laws, this wouldn't be an issue.

But I'll tell one thing that is 100% true, it is a constitutional right for people and states to defend themselves from harm. The Federal Govt won't enforce their own laws, so AZ has to do something. The solution has many of you up in arms to defend these criminals. I am in AZ quite a bit, and if a police officer asked me for proof of citizenship would I feel like my rights were violated? Hell no. Know who would? The illegals here on a freeride in the US and the bleeding heart liberals that care more about the so called 'rights' of illegals than law abiding, tax paying US citizens.

I don't care where you are from. If you are here illegally, you deserve to be deported. I don't care if thats Europe, Russia, Mexica, Canada, Central America, South America, Asia, etc.... you have no right to be here at all. If due to you breaking the law and entering and staying here illegally, you also are in the same category as other illegals that are killing and kidnapping US citizens, that is your fault. You are here illegally. The US is the land of dreams, but it is also a nation of laws...... and if you want access to those dreams you need to be here legally. May sound cold but it is the truth.