The ATS Complainer--A Conspiracy In The Making.

reply to post by Mr Mask


You say you feel strongly on this. So do I so I'd also like to take a moment to address something you mentioned above.

Originally posted by Mr Mask
I am a feminist

Fair enough but you seem to be misunderstanding some fundamental principles of feminism. Not necessarily your fault since many, including some women as well, sometimes misunderstand the core issue that lies at the heart of feminism. Especially when programmed with the stereotypical nature of the bra-burning, how dare you acknowledge my attractiveness, I have to act like a man to get respect caricature that the feminist movement is made out to be.

What I think REAL feminism is, is letting the individual woman be comfortable in her own skin, on her own terms, with whatever that may be.

If a woman's comfort zone and fulfillment is 'barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen,' then feminazi's be damned. That's where she wants to be. I've seen women get in the faces of homemakers to say they're not living up to their fullest and intellectual potential.

On the opposite end of the dramatic spectrum I'm going down, if a woman's comfort zone and fulfillment is the 'pin striped suit corporate powerhouse,' then anyone who tells her she is less of a woman because she is involved in her career be damned.

Likewise, if a woman can't stand make-up, rock on. If she feels naked without it, awesome. Femininity personified or tomboy in the flesh, do what YOU do. Not what other say you should be.

And I think that, if anything, is what bothered me. Many telling other women what their comfort zone should be. Or what jewelry they should wear. Or how they should style their hair. Or what should and should not offend them. Actually reading a post that stated they would never respect us because of where OUR comfort zone was, which didn't happen to match their own.

That's not feminism. That is 'feminazism' because instead of letting a woman make her own rules, it's telling her what box she should fit it. I'm sure you feel your heart was in the right place- cool beans. But I also want to say this ridiculous stereotype that a woman should never acknowledge her beauty and brains and the attempt to make one feel guilty for being able to do so is assigning your rules to another players's board game.

reply to post by schrodingers dog

To think that a very vocal minority can wield such influence over a silent and vocal majority.

It is only when the vocal minority have valid arguments and points that they can wield such influence over a majority.


It was a mistake...or it wouldn't have been corrected. But depending on how you define mistake...that could mean many different things. In this case, it was definately a mistake in the regard of not having a good grasp on how the community would react to it...and as Mask has said...that is a marketing mistake.

It doesn't mean that those who decided to put it in there are bad people or that the same idea wouldn't work in a different demographic (slap those titles on a UFC ring girl or aWWE female wrestler and it would work great)...but for this demographic....it was a mistake.

There is no shame in it...but I see no reason in denying that the demographic was misjudged. Otherwise...it appears that the owners of this site have the attitude of "we are right, you are wrong...and you just don't get it" (paraphrasing...not a direct quote).

Originally posted by AshleyD








That's not feminism. That is 'feminazism' because instead of letting a woman make her own rules, it's telling her what box she should fit it.

Thanks for that well crafted explanation! But isn't referring to women as chicks, hotties, cuties, etc; labeling women and placing them in a box.

Isn't this what the bruhaha is about? Not denigrating the efforts of the designers of the new endeavor. I'm looking forward to the new show and wish you all the best of luck.

btw...I'm not a feminist; I'm a humanist and I'm getting sick and tired of being referred to as "people like you"




[edit on 20-4-2010 by whaaa]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

To think that a very vocal minority can wield such influence over a silent and vocal majority.

It is only when the vocal minority have valid arguments and points that they can wield such influence over a majority.

I agree with that ... however that's not what is happening here:

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Do not assume there is any consideration that we believe there was a mistake. It was removed to eliminate an unnecessary distraction that overwhelmed a select, very-vocal few.

If the concession was made on the basis of a valid argument from a vocal and persistent minority there would be much virtue to be attributed to all "sides."

Unfortunately that is not the stated reason for the concession, hence why I described it as disheartening and makes me wonder how others will interpret it.

I don't mean to belabor the point, I just thought it was worth noting ... and though I may butt heads with them on occasion, ultimately I trust that the ATS brain-trust has the best interest of the community at heart and is way better qualified to make these decisions than myself.

[edit on 20 Apr 2010 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by Mr Mask


LOL that was definately funny no punn uhh women are an object of desire what else would men desire sheep ?

reply to post by whaaa


Oh, now really Whaaa.

A label is given as much power as we allow it to have. Not to mention that was a sliver that lasted a quick flash on the screen. It was not definitive. It was not what the entire show was about.

But more than that, the point is, if the woman is comfortable with it, then that is what matters. 'Homemaker,' 'Brainiac,' 'Hottie,' 'Corporate Shark,' etc.

If someone is comfortable with it, I say that is what matters. Or, for example, I'm personally not comfortable with the word 'Bitch,' but there are some women who wear it as a badge of pride. That's their boat and they want to float it that way. If someone flew into their world on their broomstick to tell them they're degrading themselves, I'd be rather put off. As if that woman really thinks her entire life, character, heart, and mind, could be summed up by any single word.

reply to post by AshleyD


That's cool! whaaa labels you a cutie!

reply to post by schrodingers dog


But I do see it as what is happening.

You don't think they would of taken down the titles of "hottie" and "cutie" if I got together with Mr. Mask and 5 others and we all decided to be just as vocal as we were in that thread...but instead of our valid arguments...we decided that instead we would agrue that we want those titles of "hottie" and "cutie" dropped because we think they are coded messages to the NWO to come kill us all???

Do you really think that if that was the approach...no matter how much we screamed, how loud we were, and how long we stayed in that thread...they would of changed the video to drop the titles of "hottie" and "cutie". JUST because there was a loud vocal minority?

So even if SO doesn't want to admit it...there was some validity to the arguments being made...which caused them to alter the video.

I keep hearing how it is "ok" if the the two women agreed with it.

That ignores one of the major reasons I had a problem with this.

Using sexuality in promotions to gain "male trust" or "brand awareness" is something I am personally "as a male" offended with.

People keep thinking I am just white-knighting the female gender here.

Far from true.

I was offended that a website about "Conspiracy" used such tactics against "young males" such as myself.

If you don't want to find that creepy or wrong...I understand. Not everyone demands the same civil respects or even agrees on "what is right and wrong".


PS- I now ban myself from this thread. I swear, I have the biggest mouth and have so much trouble controlling it through my fingers.



[edit on 20-4-2010 by Mr Mask]

reply to post by Mr Mask


Mask, you know I've got nothing but respect for you and I look up to those who can express an opinion against the odds. We're on opposite ends on this one but I'm still glad you're talking from the heart here.

I'll do the same.

During the last six months while we've been busting our behinds on technical aspects, sound, lighting techniques, research, practicing enunciation, and putting the very last cell of our hearts and soul into this, the last thing on my mind was your libido.



So I'll definitely respect the way you feel and will not say you are wrong to feel that way nor will I attempt to trivialize your feelings. Nobody can help the way they truly feel and if that is how you feel, then I won't seek to invalidate it. But the above is my retort to that one.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Do you really think that if that was the approach...no matter how much we screamed, how loud we were, and how long we stayed in that thread...they would of changed the video to drop the titles of "hottie" and "cutie". JUST because there was a loud vocal minority?

Well what I really think, and what I have expressed, is based on what SO said as I can only take the man at his word ... anything else would be speculation on my or anyone else's part.

So even if SO doesn't want to admit it...there was some validity to the arguments being made...which caused them to alter the video.

See, that's where one starts to tread on somewhat shaky and perilous ground ... if one chooses to disregard what SO said himself in his own words, and believe something else despite them, they are calling him something that I personally believe he is not.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
It was removed to eliminate an unnecessary distraction that overwhelmed a select, very-vocal few.

That is disheartening ...

To think that a very vocal minority can wield such influence over a silent and vocal majority.

I for one am not embracing this precedent.

G'day S'Dog, your post concisely expressed how I feel about this entire episode. A very worrying precedent indeed.

Nonetheless we pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and move on, hopefully wiser from the experience.

To Keeper - I agree with your OP, to the staff of ATS, A&A and SO and the higher ups, don't give up on us please!!

All the best ATS! kiwi

reply to post by schrodingers dog


I'm not calling SO anything. In my opinion...he is having a hard time admiting that there was a mistake made that had to be corrected.


So what is worse...me saying that he is having a hard time admitting a mistake? Or you saying he caved into a few loud critics that had no valid argument at all?

reply to post by whaaa




Ashley was the Hottie... not the Cutie... keep up

reply to post by tothetenthpower

The ATS Complainer

and who would that be - now?

what are you doing - right now?

this is different - from what?

:-)

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by whaaa

 

Ashley was the Hottie... not the Cutie... keep up

Brother man, at my age the distinction has lost it's meaning!

Still I find it awkward to box and label women on their physical attributes as I find it awkward to judge men on the length and breadth of their ....... fingers

[edit on 20-4-2010 by whaaa]

Originally posted by whaaa


Brother man, at my age the distinction has lost it's meaning!

Forgive me Sir, I am a pedant

You're right.. A Hottie is a Cutie and vice-versa.

All eye candy right?

I seeprogress has been made in this thread...it has been moved to Rant in BTS!
:bash: :bash:

reply to post by Freeborn






YAY.... and now it's just randomness...

reply to post by AshleyD

What I think REAL feminism is, is letting the individual woman be comfortable in her own skin, on her own terms, with whatever that may be.

just a quick question Ashley - did they ask you ahead of time if you'd be OK with the labels?

doesn't really matter whether or not you are OK with it

and - by the way - I agree with you - mostly

I think women get to decide what's important to women - and what is meaningless

so, going with that then - did you get to decide?

or did they decide for you?